Transmitting The Fallen Nature

synergy said:
Mormons claim that they believe in the Trinity. If you don't care about Trinitarian details then you're no better than a Mormon.
We've already established that you have Nestorian and Arian heretical beliefs. We can now add on Mormon heretical beliefs.
Click to expand...

I did not know that Mormons believe that Jesus (being the brother of Lucifer) is eternally God.

The Son was eternally existing as God. Not competing with Lucifer to see who would become the Savior.
 
GeneZ said:
I did not know that Mormons believe that Jesus (being the brother of Lucifer) is eternally God.

The Son was eternally existing as God. Not competing with Lucifer to see who would become the Savior.
Click to expand...
So Trinitarian details are important. See that. How else would you be able to differentiate yourself from a Mormon?
 
praise_yeshua said:
I have. Many times now.

Here read one of them again.....

Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Click to expand...
When they scattered was when Jesus was being tortured and being sent to the Cross,

The Father was with Him all through the horrible treatment He received.
The Father was with Him. Jesus was silent the whole time.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth." Isaiah 53:7

But, then something happened to end the silence of our Lord..

In the third hour on the Cross Jesus began screaming out in agony over and over again (in the Greek it shows he did not scream out just once).
Why did He keep screaming out that He was being Forsaken?

I would like to know.

With your wisdom, I am sure to get a right answer...

Awaiting your chapter and verses to explain what "forsaken" meant in that situation.

grace and peace ................
 
GeneZ said:
When they scattered was when Jesus was being tortured and being sent to the Cross,

The Father was with Him all through the horrible treatment He received.
The Father was with Him. Jesus was silent the whole time.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth." Isaiah 53:7

But, then something happened to end the silence of our Lord..

In the third hour on the Cross Jesus began screaming out in agony over and over again (in the Greek it shows he did not scream out just once).
Why did He keep screaming out that He was being Forsaken?

I would like to know.

With your wisdom, I am sure to get a right answer...

Awaiting your chapter and verses to explain what "forsaken" meant in that situation.

grace and peace ................
Click to expand...

So you witness that Jesus said that the Father would not abandon Him. Yet, you insert your belief God abandoned Christ.

Jesus said very clearly that The Father was with Him. Your appeal to Christ being in agony and dying doesn't establish that God forsook Christ. You're the one that needs to establish this. Not me. I believe what Jesus said.

Like I have repeatedly said. Christ was dying and abandoned His body. That is what happened. He gave up the "Ghost" He left His body. The body of Christ was buried in a tomb. However, He arose again.

Christ committed Himself to the Father....

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

In everything the Father never abandoned Christ.

Now, clearly tell me where I'm wrong.
 
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praise_yeshua said:
No. Death is a forsaking of the body. You are so fixated on your own narrative that you're missing the obvious.



Yes. He was. I praise Him for dying for me. Punished more than any man in retribution from mankind for His goodness.

In utter agony. However, I believe you're missing an important detail here. Jesus, if He were a mear man, would have already died from the punishment. Calvary is more than human suffering. It is a Supernatural event. Jesus tasted death. Jesus gave up His life. No man could take life from Him. He did not succumb to the punishment.

You can believe the false narrative of "hallucinates" if you want. I don't.

However, it is interesting how you chide me for saying what I have... yet you're appeal to hallucinates as if Christ could have believed them........

I don't see any reason to respond to the remainder of what you wrote. Can you deal with what I've said in these few words?
Click to expand...
I don't see the point in continuing, you don't even understand what I'm saying in the first place. I wasn't making any appeal to Christ hallucinating. I was asking you if that is what you thought must be happening because either Christ was truly forsaken (which I believe) or he was mistaken/hallucinating or lying as they are the only alternatives if what Christ said isn't the reality.

As far as I am concerned it is very simple. Christ asked God why did He forsake Him and he did that because He was forsaken. He wasn't asking God why He was dying, He knew why He was dying. He told the disciples often enough what lay in store for Him.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

Not one of you can answer but instead build elaborate stories to try and negate the simplicity of Christ's statement.

I have dealt with the things you said time and time again. The simple reality is you don't believe what Jesus said is true. You have to make it into something other than it's plain and simple meaning. I'm seeing the obvious, you are the one who cannot see the obvious.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"
 
sawdust said:
I don't see the point in continuing, you don't even understand what I'm saying in the first place. I wasn't making any appeal to Christ hallucinating. I was asking you if that is what you thought must be happening because either Christ was truly forsaken (which I believe) or he was mistaken/hallucinating or lying as they are the only alternatives if what Christ said isn't the reality.

As far as I am concerned it is very simple. Christ asked God why did He forsake Him and he did that because He was forsaken. He wasn't asking God why He was dying, He knew why He was dying. He told the disciples often enough what lay in store for Him.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

Not one of you can answer but instead build elaborate stories to try and negate the simplicity of Christ's statement.

I have dealt with the things you said time and time again. The simple reality is you don't believe what Jesus said is true. You have to make it into something other than it's plain and simple meaning. I'm seeing the obvious, you are the one who cannot see the obvious.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"
Click to expand...
The other alternative you leave out is it’s a proclamation He is the Messiah
 
sawdust said:
I don't see the point in continuing, you don't even understand what I'm saying in the first place. I wasn't making any appeal to Christ hallucinating. I was asking you if that is what you thought must be happening because either Christ was truly forsaken (which I believe) or he was mistaken/hallucinating or lying as they are the only alternatives if what Christ said isn't the reality.

As far as I am concerned it is very simple. Christ asked God why did He forsake Him and he did that because He was forsaken. He wasn't asking God why He was dying, He knew why He was dying. He told the disciples often enough what lay in store for Him.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

Not one of you can answer but instead build elaborate stories to try and negate the simplicity of Christ's statement.

I have dealt with the things you said time and time again. The simple reality is you don't believe what Jesus said is true. You have to make it into something other than it's plain and simple meaning. I'm seeing the obvious, you are the one who cannot see the obvious.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"
Click to expand...
Jesus is speaking words of Psalm 22 so maybe we should look at Psalm 22, you think?

Let's first understand that contextually Psalm 22 pertains exactly to the Crucifixion:

Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all My bones are spread apart; My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to My jaws;
Psa 22:16 and You have brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have circled around Me; the band of spoilers have hemmed Me in, piercers of My hands and My feet.
Psa 22:17 I can count all My bones; they look and stare at Me.
Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them and cast lots for My clothing.

Now what about God the Father?:

Psa 22:23 You who fear Jehovah, praise Him; all of you, the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and fear Him all the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from him, but when he cried to Him, He heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great congregation; I will pay My vows before the ones who fear Him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek Jehovah shall praise Him; your heart shall live forever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the fat ones on the earth shall eat and worship; all those who go down to the dust shall bow before Him; and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve Him; it shall be spoken of Jehovah to the coming generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness to a people that shall yet be born, that He has done this.

So how does one make sense out of the fact that on the one hand Jesus asks not to be foresaken; whereas, the Psalmist declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted?

The key is that Jesus is in Full Control. He is the one who called the shots in this situation. When he cried out Psalm 22, IT WAS FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES OVER! Almost immediately, God the Father brightened the day signifying it's over and shortly after Christ gave up his spirit, proclaiming that its FINISHED! CHRIST IS IN FULL CONTROL! Everything happened in rapid succession. Christ initiated it all with Psalm 22. The barrier between God and man was destroyed! Jesus proved to be our Expiation as a sin-offering. Don't let your Nestorianism or Arianism blind you from acknowledging Him as the Uncreated Word of God who is in FULL CONTROL.

CC: @civic , @praise_yeshua , @GeneZ
 
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synergy said:
So Trinitarian details are important. See that. How else would you be able to differentiate yourself from a Mormon?
Click to expand...

What is the real purpose of this "group-Inquisition" I am being put through?
Why all the suspicion and attempts to trap me?

Is it to determined if I am saved?
I am most definitely saved, and so are you.

Or, is it because I am not conforming to your local chosen group-dogma?

Many Christians do not see the Trinity as being proposed here by you.
They do not deny that Jesus said He was being forsaken while bearing our sins.

Yet you keep treating me like I am some sort of isolated creep...

Of course, treating me like I am sort of isolated creep in "Christian love." :)
 
civic said:
The other alternative you leave out is it’s a proclamation He is the Messiah
Click to expand...
You stated yourself, He wasn't merely making a statement, He was living the Psalm. So your statement still doesn't address the fact He saw Himself as forsaken. Why won't you?
 
synergy said:
Jesus is speaking words of Psalm 22 so maybe we should look at Psalm 22, you think?

Let's first understand that contextually Psalm 22 pertains exactly to the Crucifixion:

Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all My bones are spread apart; My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to My jaws;
Psa 22:16 and You have brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have circled around Me; the band of spoilers have hemmed Me in, piercers of My hands and My feet.
Psa 22:17 I can count all My bones; they look and stare at Me.
Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them and cast lots for My clothing.

Now what about God the Father?:

Psa 22:23 You who fear Jehovah, praise Him; all of you, the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and fear Him all the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from him, but when he cried to Him, He heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great congregation; I will pay My vows before the ones who fear Him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek Jehovah shall praise Him; your heart shall live forever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the fat ones on the earth shall eat and worship; all those who go down to the dust shall bow before Him; and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve Him; it shall be spoken of Jehovah to the coming generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness to a people that shall yet be born, that He has done this.

So how does one make sense out of the fact that on the one hand Jesus asks not to be foresaken; whereas, the Psalmist declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted?

The key is that Jesus is in Full Control. He is the one who called the shots in this situation. When he cried out Psalm 22, IT WAS FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES OVER! Almost immediately, God the Father brightened the day signifying it's over and shortly after Christ gave up his spirit, proclaiming that its FINISHED! CHRIST IS IN FULL CONTROL! Everything happened in rapid succession. Christ initiated it all with Psalm 22. The barrier between God and man was destroyed! Jesus proved to be our Expiation as a sin-offering. Don't let your Nestorianism or Arianism blind you from acknowledging Him as the Uncreated Word of God who is in FULL CONTROL.

CC: @civic , @praise_yeshua , @GeneZ
Click to expand...
Because for the, how many times has it been said, Christ was being forsaken because our sin was on Him. God was hiding Himself from our sin. Christ had become sin for our sakes. Was Christ left in the grave as we should have been if it were us on that Cross? No, because the Son was not despised but our sin sure was and still is.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
 
synergy said:
Jesus is speaking words of Psalm 22 so maybe we should look at Psalm 22, you think?

Let's first understand that contextually Psalm 22 pertains exactly to the Crucifixion:

Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all My bones are spread apart; My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to My jaws;
Psa 22:16 and You have brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have circled around Me; the band of spoilers have hemmed Me in, piercers of My hands and My feet.
Psa 22:17 I can count all My bones; they look and stare at Me.
Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them and cast lots for My clothing.

Now what about God the Father?:

Psa 22:23 You who fear Jehovah, praise Him; all of you, the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and fear Him all the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from him, but when he cried to Him, He heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great congregation; I will pay My vows before the ones who fear Him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek Jehovah shall praise Him; your heart shall live forever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the fat ones on the earth shall eat and worship; all those who go down to the dust shall bow before Him; and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve Him; it shall be spoken of Jehovah to the coming generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness to a people that shall yet be born, that He has done this.

So how does one make sense out of the fact that on the one hand Jesus asks not to be foresaken; whereas, the Psalmist declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted?

The key is that Jesus is in Full Control. He is the one who called the shots in this situation. When he cried out Psalm 22, IT WAS FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES OVER! Almost immediately, God the Father brightened the day signifying it's over and shortly after Christ gave up his spirit, proclaiming that its FINISHED! CHRIST IS IN FULL CONTROL! Everything happened in rapid succession. Christ initiated it all with Psalm 22. The barrier between God and man was destroyed! Jesus proved to be our Expiation as a sin-offering. Don't let your Nestorianism or Arianism blind you from acknowledging Him as the Uncreated Word of God who is in FULL CONTROL.

CC: @civic , @praise_yeshua , @GeneZ
Click to expand...


This what you have been doing with blanket statements simply by naming creeds to make your case...

That would be like Jesus responding to Satan in his temptation with the following....

​
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. ​
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:​
​
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,​
and they will lift you up in their hands,​
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” Matthew 4:5-6​



If Jesus used your kind of response to a challenge requiring chapter and verse to properly counter?

Jesus would have stated....


"The Fifth Haifa Rabbinical accord says that what you said is wrong! ​


That is what you do by simply citing titles to creeds that most people have not studied.

But, what you do?
It might look good to the easily impressed and uninformed.

You are not educating anybody when you use that technique....

And, just citing Psalm 22? From an English translation?
Then making a blanket claim?
Might impress the same kind of person.

.......
 
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History is repeating itself here.......................


1 Corinthians 11:17-19​
​
Now in giving the following instruction I do not praise you, because you come together ​
not for the better but for the worse. For in the first place, when you come together as a ​
church I hear there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there must in ​
fact be factions among you, so that those of you who are approved may be evident."​


.......
 
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sawdust said:
Because for the, how many times has it been said, Christ was being forsaken because our sin was on Him. God was hiding Himself from our sin. Christ had become sin for our sakes. Was Christ left in the grave as we should have been if it were us on that Cross? No, because the Son was not despised but our sin sure was and still is.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Click to expand...


"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
2 Corinthians 5:21​

Made it bigger.

Seems they can not see what it says......
 
GeneZ said:
What is the real purpose of this "group-Inquisition" I am being put through?
Why all the suspicion and attempts to trap me?

Is it to determined if I am saved?
I am most definitely saved, and so are you.

Or, is it because I am not conforming to your local chosen group-dogma?

Many Christians do not see the Trinity as being proposed here by you.
They do not deny that Jesus said He was being forsaken while bearing our sins.

Yet you keep treating me like I am some sort of isolated creep...

Of course, treating me like I am sort of isolated creep in "Christian love." :)
Click to expand...
Cmon you are my brother in Christ and I don’t think any less of you today than I did years ago. Iron sharpens iron my friend
 
sawdust said:
You stated yourself, He wasn't merely making a statement, He was living the Psalm. So your statement still doesn't address the fact He saw Himself as forsaken. Why won't you?
Click to expand...
By quoting the first verse of the Psalm it was a declaration is why. In the sane psalm it says He wasn’t forsaken and God heard His prayers

So why don’t you believe the rest of the psalm ?
 

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