Transmitting The Fallen Nature

The video just focused in on the anti-Trinitarianism and Nestorianism of the reformed view of PSA. There are other videos that go into details of our salvation. I see that you did not object to how the reformed view of PSA is anti-Trinitarian and Nestorian.

Basically what does save us is Christ's Incarnation, Cross, Resurrection, Ascension, outpouring of the Holy Spirit and our Repentance & Faith in Christ.
That sounded like some ex Calvinists getting together and working out a gripe they had... and are insisting upon dumping it on everyone within an earshot, who never held a view they are attacking. But making sure to make it look like they do hold the view they attack.

He also said that the death that saved us was the separation of the soul from the flesh.
But the problem with that, is that kind of death only took place after Jesus knew all was completed and pronounced "it is finished!"

After His pronouncement? That was when the soul of Jesus went below the earth. Below to preach to the fallen spirits....
How could such a thing be causing our salvation?

1 Peter 3:18-20​
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went
and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago
when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few
people, eight in all, were saved through water."

The ones speaking in the video act like they been hypnotized in the way they try to reason....
Its not Biblical... It has become some sort of subjective rationalized intellectualized exclusionary quest for them.


...............
 
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Yup.... Morbid.

Its sounds oddly like some form pseudo intellectual, articulate insanity.
To a Nestorian that's exactly how this all sounds. Thank you for confirming that.
One thing they did not address...

It is true... Jesus himself never personally underwent damnation by the Father for who he is.
Thank you for confirming that.
But, as our substitute?

He went through the effects of what should have been our damnation.
Damnation for having been born in corrupted flesh.. From birth we were corrupted!

Jesus was never forsaken by the Father for being who He is. For that would be impossible.
Thank you for confirming that.
No one is saying that is the case. Though some here keep making that the case.

It was Jesus allowing for himself to be immersed into what we were.
And , then having the Father judge not Jesus, but judging what we were born into being because of the fall of Adam.
Then do you agree that Jesus is not our Propitiation and that he is our Expiation?
For example:

If someone wanted to murder someone he hated and fired a rifle at the person he hated?
And, someone jumped in front of the would be victim to take the bullet?

Hatred for the person shot at motivated for the weapon being discharged at that person...
But the person who jumped in front, and took the hit upon himself, was not hated by the shooter.

Just the same.
Then do you agree that Jesus is not our Propitiation?
The one who jumped between the shooter and the one being hated, took upon himself the effects of being hated without being hated by the one shooting....

We need more balance to be developed...

grace and peace ..................
And the balanced view is that Jesus is our Expiation. Do you agree?
 
That sounded like some ex Calvinists getting together and working out a gripe they had... and are insisting upon dumping it on everyone within an earshot, who never held a view they are attacking. But making sure to make it look like they do hold the view they attack.
They produced quotes. It helps to view the entire 5 minutes video. Next time I'll send you a 1 minute video if 5 minutes is too much for you.
He also said that the death that saved us was the separation of the soul from the flesh.
But the problem with that, is that kind of death only took place after Jesus knew all was completed and pronounced "it is finished!"
His work on the Cross was finished but what about His Resurrection? What about His Ascension? What about our Regeneration? What type of salvation is it that you're promoting that does not acknowledge His Resurrection, His Ascension and our Regeneration?
After His pronouncement? That was when the soul of Jesus went below the earth. Below to preach to the fallen spirits....
How could such a thing be causing our salvation?
Why are you against Christ preaching to the OT Saints in Hades? What do you have against them? What did they do to you to warrant such indifference from you?
1 Peter 3:18-20​
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went
and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago
when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few
people, eight in all, were saved through water."

The ones speaking in the video act like they been hypnotized in the way they try to reason....
Its not Biblical... It has become some sort of subjective rationalized intellectualized exclusionary quest for them.
You think that it was useless for Christ to preach to those in Hades? Seriously?
Who are you to tell Christ what not to do?
 
Yup.... Morbid.

Its sounds oddly like some form pseudo intellectual, articulate insanity.


One thing they did not address...

It is true... Jesus himself never personally underwent damnation by the Father for who he is.

But, as our substitute?

He went through the effects of what should have been our damnation.
Damnation for having been born in corrupted flesh.. From birth we were corrupted!

Jesus was never forsaken by the Father for being who He is. For that would be impossible.
No one is saying that is the case. Though some here keep making that the case.

It was Jesus allowing for himself to be immersed into what we were.
And , then having the Father judge not Jesus, but judging what we were born into being because of the fall of Adam.

For example:

If someone wanted to murder someone he hated and fired a rifle at the person he hated?
And, someone jumped in front of the would be victim to take the bullet?

Hatred for the person shot at motivated for the weapon being discharged at that person...
But the person who jumped in front, and took the hit upon himself, was not hated by the shooter.

Just the same.

The one who jumped between the shooter and the one being hated, took upon himself the effects of being hated without being hated by the one shooting....

We need more balance to be developed...


grace and peace ..................
what's morbid is psa


the evil realm did it.
not God

God does nothing evil.

ever.
 
I did not watch the video. because
i did not want my soul hurt.

i do not watch theology videos any more.
 
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Christ made possible to crush mystery babylon.

the actual de facto
event of that
will be at the Change
in a twinkling

for me that is our
rescue
 
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what is the fallen nature?

flesh
this body and its natural mind
at war with God

and, this earth itself

Christ was so spot on
when He said He is not from here!

This ape body is not His.
 
what is the fallen nature?

flesh
this body and its natural mind
at war with God

and, this earth itself

Christ was so spot on
when He said He is not from here!

This ape body is not His.
Jesus had a human body just like he originally created for Adam....

When Adam fell it ceased being what God had created...
 
Define Propitiation as you see it. Then I'll answer.

Likewise for Expiation.
Here is a report I forwarded in another Forum on the differences between Expiation and Propitiation:

Question: Is Christ the Propitiation or the Expiation concerning the sins of the whole world?

Same verses, different translations of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos):
1 John 2:2 (KJV) "And He is the Propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world."
1 John 2:2 (RSV) "And He is the Expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What exactly is the correct translation of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos) from the Greek Koine NT? Is it propitiation (appeasing of a deity) or is it an expiation (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses)? The issue at stake here is whether or not God is wrathful/angry at us and must be appeased in order to change his disposition toward us.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament calls the Hebrew equivalent of ἱλασμός as “make an atonement, make a reconciliation, purge.” In Philo and other Greek Jewish literature it means “atonement” or “sin offering.” Both cases fall on the side of Expiation, not the appeasing of a deity.

In fact propitiation, is derived from Classic Greek writings such as Plutarch, who used it to mean “conciliate” or “a means of appeasing”. This occurred about 500 years before Christ, too long ago to justify such a translation.

Also, if we look at the uses of hilasmos (ἱλασμός) in the KJV OT nowhere does ἱλασμός translate to propitiation. These are: Ezekiel 44:27 (“sin offering”), Leviticus 25:9 (“atonement”), Numbers 5:8 (“guilt offering”), Amos 8:14 (“guilt or trespass offering”), Daniel 9:9 (“forgiveness”). The use of hilasmos on the LXX also supports understanding it as atonement and sacrifice for sins, something which changes us and brings about forgiveness, not something which changes God’s disposition toward us.

I'm ok with Lexicons that do not reject the Hebrew OT, the Septuagint, the KJV OT, the RSV definition of ἱλασμός, the ones that do not side with the Classic Plutarch definition of ἱλασμός which is paganistic.

Historically, why was Propitiation so readily accepted by the Christian masses? That's because that idea was born within an overly and extreme forensic legalistic culture foreign to the Biblical authors, and is something which was read into the text. The Biblical atonement is not purely a legal act, but is more of an ontological act which purifies us from sin and reunites humanity with God. There is no legal dilemma if not all are saved yet Christ died for all. God was not punishing Christ on the cross and the punishment of hell is a self-imposed punishment of separation from God by those who do not wish to know Him. God’s judgment is simply Him affirming their choice to reject Divine Love. (John 3:18-21 NKJV — “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Furthermore, propitiation is not consistent with the statements of Romans 5:8 and 1 John 4:9-10 in that God was already well-disposed towards us and for that reason reconciled us to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. An atonement for cleansing and forgiving sins fits 1 John 1:10-2:2 which is focused on cleansing from sin and ongoing purification through Christ’s Blood, not any questions of legal standing and certainly not a need to earn God’s favor as if there were ever a time He did not look at us favorably.

1 John 4:10 says, “In this is Love, not that we loved God, but He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins.” Again, hilasmos here means atoning sacrifice or expiation. It was out of God’s love that God died for us, and it was we who needed to be changed, our wills and dispositions needed to be renewed. There is no hint in the whole context that God was angry at us and punished His Son in our place.

The Cross is the place where atonement was made to reconcile humanity which had turned away from God to the God Who never turned away from us. The atonement justifies, cleanses, redeems, and ransoms. Through the atonement God substitutes for us as He takes death on Himself, death is destroyed, and all will be raised at the Last Day (Judgment Day).

Because God is already favorably disposed towards those for whom Christ died, since His favor is why He provided the atonement in the first place, the interpretation of the word hilasmos as propitiation can be rejected. Christ died as a sacrifice of atonement, to purify us and the creation. He did not die to appease God or bear wrath.

In the final analysis, the penal substitute theory presents God as a Legalistic Judge who demands repayment of debt in order to show mercy. This is not forgiveness nor mercy but retribution.

Conclusion: Propitiation, the appeasing of an irate Deity by offering Him a sacrifice which bears the weight of His wrath may be acceptable in Islam or paganism but it has no place in Christianity.
 
Yup.... Morbid.

Its sounds oddly like some form pseudo intellectual, articulate insanity.


One thing they did not address...

It is true... Jesus himself never personally underwent damnation by the Father for who he is.

But, as our substitute?

He went through the effects of what should have been our damnation.
Damnation for having been born in corrupted flesh.. From birth we were corrupted!

Jesus was never forsaken by the Father for being who He is. For that would be impossible.
No one is saying that is the case. Though some here keep making that the case.

It was Jesus allowing for himself to be immersed into what we were.
And , then having the Father judge not Jesus, but judging what we were born into being because of the fall of Adam.

For example:

If someone wanted to murder someone he hated and fired a rifle at the person he hated?
And, someone jumped in front of the would be victim to take the bullet?

Hatred for the person shot at motivated for the weapon being discharged at that person...
But the person who jumped in front, and took the hit upon himself, was not hated by the shooter.

Just the same.

The one who jumped between the shooter and the one being hated, took upon himself the effects of being hated without being hated by the one shooting....

We need more balance to be developed...


grace and peace ..................
Jesus was not born in corrupted flesh thats another heretical teaching.
 
Here is a report I forwarded in another Forum on the differences between Expiation and Propitiation:

Question: Is Christ the Propitiation or the Expiation concerning the sins of the whole world?

Same verses, different translations of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos):
1 John 2:2 (KJV) "And He is the Propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world."
1 John 2:2 (RSV) "And He is the Expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What exactly is the correct translation of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos) from the Greek Koine NT? Is it propitiation (appeasing of a deity) or is it an expiation (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses)? The issue at stake here is whether or not God is wrathful/angry at us and must be appeased in order to change his disposition toward us.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament calls the Hebrew equivalent of ἱλασμός as “make an atonement, make a reconciliation, purge.” In Philo and other Greek Jewish literature it means “atonement” or “sin offering.” Both cases fall on the side of Expiation, not the appeasing of a deity.

In fact propitiation, is derived from Classic Greek writings such as Plutarch, who used it to mean “conciliate” or “a means of appeasing”. This occurred about 500 years before Christ, too long ago to justify such a translation.

Also, if we look at the uses of hilasmos (ἱλασμός) in the KJV OT nowhere does ἱλασμός translate to propitiation. These are: Ezekiel 44:27 (“sin offering”), Leviticus 25:9 (“atonement”), Numbers 5:8 (“guilt offering”), Amos 8:14 (“guilt or trespass offering”), Daniel 9:9 (“forgiveness”). The use of hilasmos on the LXX also supports understanding it as atonement and sacrifice for sins, something which changes us and brings about forgiveness, not something which changes God’s disposition toward us.

I'm ok with Lexicons that do not reject the Hebrew OT, the Septuagint, the KJV OT, the RSV definition of ἱλασμός, the ones that do not side with the Classic Plutarch definition of ἱλασμός which is paganistic.

Historically, why was Propitiation so readily accepted by the Christian masses? That's because that idea was born within an overly and extreme forensic legalistic culture foreign to the Biblical authors, and is something which was read into the text. The Biblical atonement is not purely a legal act, but is more of an ontological act which purifies us from sin and reunites humanity with God. There is no legal dilemma if not all are saved yet Christ died for all. God was not punishing Christ on the cross and the punishment of hell is a self-imposed punishment of separation from God by those who do not wish to know Him. God’s judgment is simply Him affirming their choice to reject Divine Love. (John 3:18-21 NKJV — “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Furthermore, propitiation is not consistent with the statements of Romans 5:8 and 1 John 4:9-10 in that God was already well-disposed towards us and for that reason reconciled us to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. An atonement for cleansing and forgiving sins fits 1 John 1:10-2:2 which is focused on cleansing from sin and ongoing purification through Christ’s Blood, not any questions of legal standing and certainly not a need to earn God’s favor as if there were ever a time He did not look at us favorably.

1 John 4:10 says, “In this is Love, not that we loved God, but He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins.” Again, hilasmos here means atoning sacrifice or expiation. It was out of God’s love that God died for us, and it was we who needed to be changed, our wills and dispositions needed to be renewed. There is no hint in the whole context that God was angry at us and punished His Son in our place.

The Cross is the place where atonement was made to reconcile humanity which had turned away from God to the God Who never turned away from us. The atonement justifies, cleanses, redeems, and ransoms. Through the atonement God substitutes for us as He takes death on Himself, death is destroyed, and all will be raised at the Last Day (Judgment Day).

Because God is already favorably disposed towards those for whom Christ died, since His favor is why He provided the atonement in the first place, the interpretation of the word hilasmos as propitiation can be rejected. Christ died as a sacrifice of atonement, to purify us and the creation. He did not die to appease God or bear wrath.

In the final analysis, the penal substitute theory presents God as a Legalistic Judge who demands repayment of debt in order to show mercy. This is not forgiveness nor mercy but retribution.

Conclusion: Propitiation, the appeasing of an irate Deity by offering Him a sacrifice which bears the weight of His wrath may be acceptable in Islam or paganism but it has no place in Christianity.
Amen
 
Here is a short video on how the Reformed view of PSA is anti-Trinitarian, Nestorian, splits the Trinity, and is totally heretical because it blasphemes that the Son spiritually died and was damned- all notions from the pit of Hell.

They are spot on in this video and they know church history and the origin of the doctrines.
 
Here is a report I forwarded in another Forum on the differences between Expiation and Propitiation:

Question: Is Christ the Propitiation or the Expiation concerning the sins of the whole world?

Same verses, different translations of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos):
1 John 2:2 (KJV) "And He is the Propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world."
1 John 2:2 (RSV) "And He is the Expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What exactly is the correct translation of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos) from the Greek Koine NT? Is it propitiation (appeasing of a deity) or is it an expiation (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses)? The issue at stake here is whether or not God is wrathful/angry at us and must be appeased in order to change his disposition toward us.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament calls the Hebrew equivalent of ἱλασμός as “make an atonement, make a reconciliation, purge.” In Philo and other Greek Jewish literature it means “atonement” or “sin offering.” Both cases fall on the side of Expiation, not the appeasing of a deity.

In fact propitiation, is derived from Classic Greek writings such as Plutarch, who used it to mean “conciliate” or “a means of appeasing”. This occurred about 500 years before Christ, too long ago to justify such a translation.

Also, if we look at the uses of hilasmos (ἱλασμός) in the KJV OT nowhere does ἱλασμός translate to propitiation. These are: Ezekiel 44:27 (“sin offering”), Leviticus 25:9 (“atonement”), Numbers 5:8 (“guilt offering”), Amos 8:14 (“guilt or trespass offering”), Daniel 9:9 (“forgiveness”). The use of hilasmos on the LXX also supports understanding it as atonement and sacrifice for sins, something which changes us and brings about forgiveness, not something which changes God’s disposition toward us.

I'm ok with Lexicons that do not reject the Hebrew OT, the Septuagint, the KJV OT, the RSV definition of ἱλασμός, the ones that do not side with the Classic Plutarch definition of ἱλασμός which is paganistic.

Historically, why was Propitiation so readily accepted by the Christian masses? That's because that idea was born within an overly and extreme forensic legalistic culture foreign to the Biblical authors, and is something which was read into the text. The Biblical atonement is not purely a legal act, but is more of an ontological act which purifies us from sin and reunites humanity with God. There is no legal dilemma if not all are saved yet Christ died for all. God was not punishing Christ on the cross and the punishment of hell is a self-imposed punishment of separation from God by those who do not wish to know Him. God’s judgment is simply Him affirming their choice to reject Divine Love. (John 3:18-21 NKJV — “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Furthermore, propitiation is not consistent with the statements of Romans 5:8 and 1 John 4:9-10 in that God was already well-disposed towards us and for that reason reconciled us to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. An atonement for cleansing and forgiving sins fits 1 John 1:10-2:2 which is focused on cleansing from sin and ongoing purification through Christ’s Blood, not any questions of legal standing and certainly not a need to earn God’s favor as if there were ever a time He did not look at us favorably.

1 John 4:10 says, “In this is Love, not that we loved God, but He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins.” Again, hilasmos here means atoning sacrifice or expiation. It was out of God’s love that God died for us, and it was we who needed to be changed, our wills and dispositions needed to be renewed. There is no hint in the whole context that God was angry at us and punished His Son in our place.

The Cross is the place where atonement was made to reconcile humanity which had turned away from God to the God Who never turned away from us. The atonement justifies, cleanses, redeems, and ransoms. Through the atonement God substitutes for us as He takes death on Himself, death is destroyed, and all will be raised at the Last Day (Judgment Day).

Because God is already favorably disposed towards those for whom Christ died, since His favor is why He provided the atonement in the first place, the interpretation of the word hilasmos as propitiation can be rejected. Christ died as a sacrifice of atonement, to purify us and the creation. He did not die to appease God or bear wrath.

In the final analysis, the penal substitute theory presents God as a Legalistic Judge who demands repayment of debt in order to show mercy. This is not forgiveness nor mercy but retribution.

Conclusion: Propitiation, the appeasing of an irate Deity by offering Him a sacrifice which bears the weight of His wrath may be acceptable in Islam or paganism but it has no place in Christianity.


There is some type of personal hang up that your team shares in common.
I have not been able to define it yet because I do not know what kind of personalities you have.

Just the same. It says Jesus was both an expatiation and a propitiation for different reasons.

You have been running with conclusions that apparently have been predetermined by your own personal sensitivities
and dislikes, for words that trigger you.

From your own data it shows Jesus was both a propitiation and an expatiation.

What are you trying to get at?
To form your own denomination that you can feel comfortable with yourselves in a spiritual life
that will demand we deny our selves and take up our own cross if we are to follow Him?

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children
and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26​


What you are doing to me it sounds like a group of like minded believers wanting to create a way to think that will spare them of what they find offensive in regards to the death of Christ on the Cross. Its tantamount of trying to spare and save your own life from what you find personally offensive about what Jesus needed to suffer in order to save us.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Matthew 16:25​
You seem to get outright nasty when someone reveals what you wish to deny about the agony Jesus chose to go through.
He had to bear the punishment that we were deserving in our place as a substitute for us.

Besides ,,, when it gets down to arguing by you putting up walls using titles of theological concepts as the means to justify your stand?
We have gotten far away from knowing chapter and verse as we are supposed to be doing.

No growth without chapter and verse. Throwing around names of concepts is silly.
For the other has no way to know if that concept being plastered as a defense is even being understood correctly
by the one trying to use it for his justification. Wasting time.

grace and peace ............
 
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