Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[praise_yeshua]

Translation?.... I don't agree! But, I have nothing good to refute it with!

And, add to that.

I want to distract away from something that was just said. Something that could have been edifying for those who love learning more from God's Word if allowed to discuss it with peace .



"Bah Humbug!" Christianity is amongst us...

I said more than "Nonsense". I always do. Why are you being deceptive?

 

[TedT]

The Lord only made a body first.

What's your proof that the ALL of Job 8:7 ...and ALL the Sons of God sang HIS praise when they saw the creation of the physical universe, is in fact wrong and not ALL HIS sons sang HIS praise at all?

IF all HIS sons were indeed already created when HE created the physical universe then the breathing of Adam into his newly created body of dust was a sowing, not a creation of his being, his spirit...reminiscent of Matt 13: 36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” An explanation of a parable/ metaphor is NOT explained by the expansion of the metaphor...
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons/people of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons/people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
Since sowing cannot be equal to creating, these verses can be seen to prove that we are NOT created on earth but are sown into our bodies at conception.

 

[civic]

Peccable is a doctrine. Not a definition to be repeated from Webster....



@civic I must admit. It frustrates me to get to this point in a discussion to only realize that someone doesn't believe in the Impeccability of Christ....



What Angel was placed in a garden where Satan could deceive them into eating a fruit?

Angels have more innate knowledge that Adam and Eve had. There is reason I say the things I do. I have repeatedly stated that knowledge is a central aspect of the culpability of sin.

It’s a breakdown in understanding the Trinity, the nature of God and the Divine ( not human ) Person of Christ. That’s what it boils down to it’s the same with Kenosis. And with the Father forsaking the Son. It’s all a breakdown with the Tri-Unity of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Death is the result of sin.

Death existed before Adam. Death entered this world. It was not part of this world. The penalty of death is the limit of the natural life of Adam. The right to Eternal life only comes through Christ. God had a plan to establish such before this world was ever formed. God's work takes time. He is patient. You're looking at this through the eyes of another.

You can't change reality. God set that reality. Adam has no control over reality.

You believe that God wanted Adam to die in His judgement of Adam. God didn't. He never did. There is only one way to establish the meaningfulness of the love of God, and that is through God's creation learning through experience what it means to have it "their way". (absence of God).

That is what you see in God's actions initially in humanity. God's plan gradually working for the good of Love.

Do I want my children to die? Of course not!

Neither does God! God outsmarted Satan. This just isn't about us. It is part of us but it is not all about us. However, you insist the nature of God demands damnation for sin to the point that Christ must suffer the damnation of mankind in order to redeem man. That is preposterous. It devalues the Atonement. It devalues Grace and Mercy. It devalues the Character of God.

But can I shrug my shoulders and say "oh well, lets forget about your sin and ignore the problem"

There is a reason God let the prodigal son do as he pleased. It is why we have to walk away from our own at times and let them have their way. They must learn. They must have "skin in the game" or it will mean NOTHING to them. NOTHING.

You're not looking at this the right way. I hope you consider what I say. Ultimately, it is your choice.

then carry on as if nothing has happened? An emphatic NO!!! It must be dealt with otherwise my word means nothing, it becomes irrelevant. Love is the motivation for the Cross, but not love of sinful man. God so loved (past tense) the world (the one He originally created before sin marred it, the one He called good) and the Son so loved the Father that He was willing to die even death on a Cross, a most tortuous death.

Really? God loved man in Himself.

Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
Act 17:29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

I am not ignoring you, I am trying to set you straight.

I appreciate that.....

Hopefully all men will struggle to find the Truth.....

What do we care about that doesn't come from a struggle? We are a fickle creator without God. Incomplete but designed to be a "searcher".....
Have you ever stopped and realized that our very nature is one of exploration? Seeking? Trying to endless find satisfaction while never getting there?

God has designed this life in His wisdom to guide us to Him. It is why we seek. Why we are always searching. Even when we find Him, it is only a taste of Glory Divine. A glimpse of things Eternal. Even the mind He imparts must LEARN of Him. The new eyes we receive don't understand everything we now see. The ears that once didn't recognize the voice of God can now hear Him clearly. Yet, we often have to be silent to hear His small still voice. At every turn our faith is tried..... not that God should know us... but that we should know ourselves in knowing Him.

 

[sawdust]

Peccable is a doctrine. Not a definition to be repeated from Webster....

And doctrines can be wrong.

@civic I must admit. It frustrates me to get to this point in a discussion to only realize that someone doesn't believe in the Impeccability of Christ....

If He couldn't sin, He couldn't be tempted and if He couldn't be tempted he wasn't fully man. His Deity is impeccable, His humanity was of the exact same nature as Adam pre-fall.

What Angel was placed in a garden where Satan could deceive them into eating a fruit?

Angels have more innate knowledge that Adam and Eve had. There is reason I say the things I do. I have repeatedly stated that knowledge is a central aspect of the culpability of sin

Where is the scripture or even scriptural rationale that says angels were created with innate knowledge of good and evil? Only God is good and He cannot create innate goodness. All knowledge must be acquired whether it be man or angel.

The angels had the same knowledge of God when Lucifer decided to let his own desires take hold in defiance of his knowledge of God. And Adam had enough knowledge not to sin. Yes knowledge is crucial, but application of truth is wisdom. Lucifer and Adam failed by exchanging the truth for a lie.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And doctrines can be wrong.

If He couldn't sin, He couldn't be tempted and if He couldn't be tempted he wasn't fully man. His Deity is impeccable, His humanity was of the exact same nature as Adam pre-fall.


Where is the scripture or even scriptural rationale that says angels were created with innate knowledge of good and evil? Only God is good and He cannot create innate goodness. All knowledge must be acquired whether it be man or angel.

The angels had the same knowledge of God when Lucifer decided to let his own desires take hold in defiance of his knowledge of God. And Adam had enough knowledge not to sin. Yes knowledge is crucial, but application of truth is wisdom. Lucifer and Adam failed by exchanging the truth for a lie.

What do you believe Adam learned in the hundreds of years after he was suppose to die?

I'm going to stay away from comments on Impeccability. We could talk for days over that one subject. I encourage you reconsider what you said. Dig a little deeper.

This why I told you that you're introducing "jeopardy" in the Incarnation and Atonement. As a human being with a vast ego..... we are all looking for reasons to find value in our lives. Some people do this by believing that Christ could have sinned for THEM......

Christ was never capable of sinning relative to Incarnation. I know that probably hurts your feelings and the value you place on the work of Christ for you. It doesn't to me. I see Grace from the begins. I realize that I have no rights whatsoever to Eternal life. ZERO....

Who wants to die? I don't. As much as I struggle at times..... I'm like the old "Frankenstein"..... "I want to LIVE".... Not only do I want to live. I want to learn of my Master. He is altogether lovely. Without spot. Without blemish. Even more.... Incapable of spot or blemish. High..... above the heavens.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The Priestly work of Christ is what you find value in the Atonement. That God sought to know us in our own weaknesses. In our own lack of knowledge. He grew. He experienced US... Depicting to Satan what He could have had with Him.

You got to know that Satan is filled with regret. Endless and agonizing regret.

Adding..... Agonizing regret often deepens sin absent God.

 

[sawdust]

It’s a breakdown in understanding the Trinity, the nature of God and the Divine ( not human ) Person of Christ. That’s what it boils down to it’s the same with Kenosis. And with the Father forsaking the Son. It’s all a breakdown with the Tri-Unity of God.

But during the incarnation He did not act in accordance with His Deity but relied on the Father and Spirit for all power while acting within all the limitations of humanity as it was originally created in Adam.

So it does not breakdown anything within the Trinity because we are speaking of the humanity of Christ not His deity.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But during the incarnation He did not act in accordance with His Deity but relied on the Father and Spirit for all power while acting within all the limitations of humanity as it was originally created in Adam.

So it does not breakdown anything within the Trinity because we are speaking of the humanity of Christ not His deity.

His appeal to the Father was an appeal to Unity. Remember, the Jews that rejected Him did so because of His claim of being "One" with the Father. There is some sense of Christ limited His response but it was never because He didn't have the power to do differently.

It is telling that you're trying NOT to limit how human Christ was but you certainly are trying to limit Christ's Divinity.....

Can you at least recognize how self serving to man this is?

 

[sawdust]

Death existed before Adam. Death entered this world. It was not part of this world. The penalty of death is the limit of the natural life of Adam. The right to Eternal life only comes through Christ. God had a plan to establish such before this world was ever formed. God's work takes time. He is patient. You're looking at this through the eyes of another.

Death exists because of sin. It entered this world (ie. this current creation) because of one man's sin, Adam. That death existed before Adam was only because Lucifer sinned. We have already agreed God's purpose is to gift eternal life to His creation.

You believe that God wanted Adam to die in His judgement of Adam. God didn't. He never did. There is only one way to establish the meaningfulness of the love of God, and that is through God's creation learning through experience what it means to have it "their way". (absence of God).

Please stop telling me what I believe because you get it wrong every time. God takes no pleasure in death, He does not want death for His creation, He wants it to have life.

Neither does God! God outsmarted Satan. This just isn't about us. It is part of us but it is not all about us. However, you insist the nature of God demands damnation for sin to the point that Christ must suffer the damnation of mankind in order to redeem man. That is preposterous. It devalues the Atonement. It devalues Grace and Mercy. It devalues the Character of God.

I am insisting the word of God is true. The nature of God which is righteousness, cannot abide with sin, the outworking of which naturally results in death. Therefore the natural consequence for sinners is death. God spoke the reality into being. That sin results in death is part of that reality. You appear to want God to ignore a part of the very reality He ordained.

It does not devalue grace and mercy. It brings sin to account and establishes righteousness and the fact this justification is freely given to those who believe only serves to elevate grace and mercy.

Really? God loved man in Himself.

Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
Act 17:29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

And that shows God loves sinful man how exactly? I have already stated grace is behind every action of God. Grace makes the sun to shine and rain to fall on the good and evil alike. Does this mean God loves evil? Of course not.

 

[sawdust]

His appeal to the Father was an appeal to Unity. Remember, the Jews that rejected Him did so because of His claim of being "One" with the Father. There is some sense of Christ limited His response but it was never because He didn't have the power to do differently.

It is telling that you're trying NOT to limit how human Christ was but you certainly are trying to limit Christ's Divinity.....

Can you at least recognize how self serving to man this is?

I am not the one who limits Christ's divinity during the Incarnation. He chose to do that Himself.

Phil.2:6&7
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Death exists because of sin. It entered this world (ie. this current creation) because of one man's sin, Adam. That death existed before Adam was only because Lucifer sinned. We have already agreed God's purpose is to gift eternal life to His creation.

Who knows if it was originally Lucifer or not. I don't believe God has been limited in His creative power to just Lucifer. In fact, it is rather obvious to me that the fact Lucifer has yet to be judged and has access directly to God... indicates that God is NOT as fearful of sin relative to His supposed "justice" and "holiness" as you think He is. Do you really expect God to "cower" in some corner somewhere worrying over the power of sin that supposed caused the death of Christ?

Please stop telling me what I believe because you get it wrong every time. God takes no pleasure in death, He does not want death for His creation, He wants it to have life.

I will rephrase. Your doctrine requires that God wanted Adam to die. I don't see a separation between you and your doctrine. Our choices have logical conclusions. Mine do too. Call me on them.

I'm going to stop right here and wait. Our responses are getting too long. I've said about all I want to say at the moment. Not that I'm afraid to deal with this more. I feel as if I have said enough. I may say more. I would like for you to deal with what I've said in this post.

Thanks

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not the one who limits Christ's divinity during the Incarnation. He chose to do that Himself.

Phil.2:6&7
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

I'd almost call you "Seth" right now but I think you're little better than him....

Notice the word likeness. "No reputation" is a better source. Like I said, we could argue for days over this. It takes time to work through all the aspects of dealing with the Incarnation and the incorporation of Divinity among men. In fact, it takes years of dedicated commitment.

 

[civic]

I am not the one who limits Christ's divinity during the Incarnation. He chose to do that Himself.

Phil.2:6&7
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

It was veiled and He did not use it to His own advantage.

When Jesus walked this earth was He fully/completely God lacking nothing in His Deity/ Divine Nature ? Yes or no

 

[sawdust]

It was veiled and He did not use it to His own advantage.

When Jesus walked this earth was He fully/completely God lacking nothing in His Deity/ Divine Nature ? Yes or no

I agree and He lacked nothing in His Divine nature during the Incarnation. I have not said anything different. He simply refused to call upon His own Deity to act but rather relied solely on the Deity of the Father and Spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Your doctrine requires that God wanted Adam to die

No, my doctrine simply requires God to keep His word and deal with sin in accordance with that same word. This he did. Putting to death our sin in the body of Christ and raising Him to life.

The fact that God knew Adam would sin meant He could use it to His advantage in a way that would establish His ultimate goal of sharing His life (eternal life) with His creation and not compromise His Holiness.

Ergo, when all is said and done, the cry of the angels day and night is "holy, holy, holy". (Rev.4:8)

ps. please note it doesn't say "love, love, love".

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That was punishment as the result of their negative volition. Not the cause.
In context it was worshipers of Baal that God did that to.

Actually, the source of that quote is from Deuteronomy:

2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

That's not a result of their negative volition. To paraphrase, "You experienced all these trials and I did all these wonders, but to this day I have not given you a mind that understands or eyes to see or ears that hear."

In fact, the way I understand the Bible, apart from a remnant from generation to generation, God still hasn't yet done so.

 

[GeneZ]

Yeah. I call tell you're one of those men that think they can command their wives to do anything they wish and punish them when they do.

It becoming obvious about you.....

 

[GeneZ]

Peccable is a doctrine. Not a definition to be repeated from Webster....



@civic I must admit. It frustrates me to get to this point in a discussion to only realize that someone doesn't believe in the Impeccability of Christ....



What Angel was placed in a garden where Satan could deceive them into eating a fruit?

Angels have more innate knowledge than Adam and Eve had. There is reason I say the things I do. I have repeatedly stated that knowledge is a central aspect of the culpability of sin.

Gaslighter testing = praise-yeshua.....

You are not contributing a dang thing. edited

 

[GeneZ]

What's your proof that the ALL of Job 8:7 ...and ALL the Sons of God sang HIS praise when they saw the creation of the physical universe, is in fact wrong and not ALL HIS sons sang HIS praise at all?

IF all HIS sons were indeed already created when HE created the physical universe then the breathing of Adam into his newly created body of dust was a sowing, not a creation of his being, his spirit...reminiscent of Matt 13: 36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” An explanation of a parable/ metaphor is NOT explained by the expansion of the metaphor...
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons/people of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons/people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
Since sowing cannot be equal to creating, these verses can be seen to prove that we are NOT created on earth but are sown into our bodies at conception.

Ted? I was talking about the Lord first "molding and forming" (jatsar) the body for Adam's soul before breathing that soul into the body.

Where you just went to? I have no idea.

 

[GeneZ]

Actually, the source of that quote is from Deuteronomy:

Yes, it was. But it was applicable for what was said in Romans 11:2-10, which was citing from Deuteronomy.