praise_yeshua
Active Member
I tried to narrow your response and you didn't go along with it.
Total Depravity
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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I tried to narrow your response and you didn't go along with it.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You're repeating. I understand your argument. I asked how that leaves anyone out....
I agree. All ethnicities are forgiven.
You're not narrowing down forgiveness relative to the "whole". If all ethnicities are included then everyone is included.
You can't establish any context of 2 Corinthians 5 where in all human beings are not included relative to "world". It doesn't matter if you try to make it about Jew and Gentile. They ARE ALL included.
Um you totally missed the point reconciliation is not received without man's faith.
2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (LEB) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as if God were imploring you through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Forgiveness is offered to all, and it is received upon faith.
Amen
Unfortunately, in Calvinism, the offer is only unconditionally provided to some.
Sorry but
The elect are not all people, all human beings, or the world.
You need to start believing what the scripture clearly shows.
brightfame52
Active Member
Well thats it, world just means nations, gentiles, and not all mankind without exception. Gods elect around the world are special objects of His love
brightfame52
Active Member
The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is those of the chosen and called that dont have sin charged to it. See on he other hand Paul Identifies a world, different from 2 Cor 5:19 world, which is a condemned world 1 Cor 11:32
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
The condemned world obviously has their sins imputed to them, duh
brightfame52
Active Member
world in these verses just means all ethnicities has Gods elect, not just jews. Its the scope of the world thats in view
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You said Jews were special objects of love and Gentiles expanded such. You can't keep your lie straight. It fails at every level. Your claims have no rational solution within the context of revelation. It is nothing more than a self serving claim that makes you look good while denying the same love to others just like you.
brightfame52
Active Member
correction jews and gentiles , Gods elect from all nations are special objects of Gods love. See the jews thought for the longest that they were the only people God so Loved, but they were oh so wrong, He Loved Gentiles that way as well.
Duh, yourself. Reconciliation, forgiveness is offered to all.
It, however, is not received apart from faith and acceptance of the reconciliation, which was as if God were imploring and the apostles begging men to accept.
2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (LEB) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as if God were imploring you through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Reconciliation is a matter of relationship. It is not a single sided process. It requires a truly free willing choice from the forgiven.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Keep struggling with this. Again. You are including everyone. All peoples of the earth. You're not creating a distinction where world isn't everyone relative to an exclusive group that isn't of everyone.
Simple question. Did Christ have a different flesh than the flesh of all the descendants of Adam and Eve?
civic
Active Member
You are easily refuted by the Apostle John and the Greek Lexicons.
1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world
1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.
Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).
We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.
So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes your doctrine false.
Its that world whom Christ made propitiation.I And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.
The Golden Rule of Interpretation
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society
These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.
Thayers
Cosmos: the inhabitants of the
5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9(Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.
6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
hope this helps !!!
Good to see you back, Tom. We missed you.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah, all the people God saves, out from all nations of the world
The phrase out from all nations of the world does not appear in scripture.
You failed to show
The elect are all people, all human beings, or the world mentioned in scripture.
brightfame52
Active Member
I dont know what in the world you talking about, however world in salvation matters just means people who aren't jews. Jn 3:16 means God loves more that just jews
Glad to be back. Still undergoing treatment for the condition that kept me out, but doing a lot better than originally.
