Total Depravity

[brightfame52]

Alienation,

As long as we be in nature, we are spiritually dead in sin unto God, and in a continual state of alienation,

Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word alienated means:

1. to be shut out from one's fellowship and intimacy

And in the original this is perfect tense state !

 

[Biblelesson]

Total depravity is primarily inward—an inwardness that stems from our profound and tragic fall in Adam. When we think of sin, we are prone to limit ourselves to outward actions such as murder, theft, assassination, cruelty, and anything else that is external and observable in human behavior.

But the Bible is much more rigorous and far more radical. It looks not simply at what is outward, touched, and heard, it goes into the depths of human life and says that sin and depravity exist there, too—in our thoughts, our ambitions, our decisions, our motives, and our aspirations.

Jesus said that it is not what a man eats or touches that defiles him, but that which comes out from him that defiles him and affects all he thinks and does Matt. 15:17–20

It is not so much that human actions or speech have missed the target; it is that the heart of man has missed the target. The very heart of man is unbelieving, selfish, covetous, sensuous, and always desiring to displace God Himself. Hence, the very desire to sin is sin.

John Calvin put it this way: “According to the constitution of our nature, oil might be extracted from a stone sooner than we could perform a good work.”

We were affected by Adam’s sin in two ways. First, the guilt of his sin was imputed to us, so we are guilty sinners before God, as

Paul tells us graphically in Romans 5:18 “By the offence of one [man,] judgment came upon all men to condemnation.”

Second, we inherited the pollution of his sin, so we are corrupt sinners before God, conceived and born in iniquity, as David tells us graphically in Psalm 51:5: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

We are depraved in our inner beings through our fall in Adam, both in our state of guilt and in our condition of pollution. Isaiah said that the best of our righteousness—that is, the best of our best—is as “filthy rags” before the holy God. We are worse than we can imagine.

Jeremiah 17:9 tell us, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Calvin declares that no one knows even 1 percent of his sin.

 

[brightfame52]

By nature we hate God, the True God, of course we dont think so, but its true, here is testimony of scripture Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And Im sure you know that all of us by nature are carnal or the carnal minded ones. In the original it reads more like " because the mind enmity against God"

The word enmity echthra:
hostility; by implication, a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.
The word is used in Gal 5:20

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

It doesnt matter how moral, religious, sincere we may be, if we are unregenerate, we are carnally minded, and have nothing but hate for the True God. Im not talking about idols and false gods, and gods of our own understanding, we love them.

It doesnt help appealing to the carnal Corinthians 1 Cor 3 because they have they had the Spirit in them, a different nature born of God 1 Cor 6, whereas the unregenerate dont have the Spirit at all.

 

[praise_yeshua]

By nature we hate God, the True God, of course we dont think so, but its true, here is testimony of scripture Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

You're assuming that a baby is born with a carnal mind. Please make that connection. I wish you would, we might get somewhere.

And Im sure you know that all of us by nature are carnal or the carnal minded ones. In the original it reads more like " because the mind enmity against God"

The word enmity echthra:
hostility; by implication, a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.
The word is used in Gal 5:20

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

All that for nothing. No connection at all to the innocence of a child. Children are "shaped" in the womb....

So go ahead and start down that road....

It doesnt matter how moral, religious, sincere we may be, if we are unregenerate, we are carnally minded, and have nothing but hate for the True God. Im not talking about idols and false gods, and gods of our own understanding, we love them.

It doesnt help appealing to the carnal Corinthians 1 Cor 3 because they have they had the Spirit in them, a different nature born of God 1 Cor 6, whereas the unregenerate dont have the Spirit at all.

Glad you mentioned this....

Paul clearly said they were still carnal. You still have the same problem yourself.

 

[TedT]

You're assuming that a baby is born with a carnal mind. Please make that connection. I wish you would, we might get somewhere.

If I may:
the fact that infants in the womb and after birth are liable to receive the wages of sin ie death (and suffering) is the proof for many who accept that the wages of sin cannot be paid to / upon an innocent.

Death as the wages for sin proves the carnality the fallenness of the spirit. The the GOD who is loving and holy puts innocents thru the sufferings for sin by placing the wages for sin upon them is ludicrous and probably blasphemous.

 

[brightfame52]

@praise_yeshua

You're assuming that a baby is born with a carnal mind.

You assuming theyre not. They are born flesh as opposed of the Spirit Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That word flesh in Vs 6 is σαρκὸς:

that which has been born of the natural man is a natural man (opposed to one who has been born again by the power of the Holy Spirit), John 3:6;

And its the same word carnal in Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So yes babies are born carnal/flesh which naturally hates God, it just hasnt been manifested yet, at least to men

 

[praise_yeshua]

If I may:

Certianly,

the fact that infants in the womb and after birth are liable to receive the wages of sin ie death (and suffering) is the proof for many who accept that the wages of sin cannot be paid to / upon an innocent.

I agree but they are mistaken.

What infant was there in the garden when Eve ate of the fruit of the tree?

Death as the wages for sin proves the carnality the fallenness of the spirit. The the GOD who is loving and holy puts innocents thru the sufferings for sin by placing the wages for sin upon them is ludicrous and probably blasphemous..

Cain shaped his offspring after himself. So did his wife.

Abel is an example of the innocent victim that never did anything wrong. His death came at the hands of Cain.

It is a meaningful question to ask.... "Why did God not intervene".....

I never meet hardly anyone that actually is willing to ask this question. I wish they would. I have asked it. I deal with it in my theology. It is needful to understand the why.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

You assuming theyre not. They are born flesh as opposed of the Spirit Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That word flesh in Vs 6 is σαρκὸς:

that which has been born of the natural man is a natural man (opposed to one who has been born again by the power of the Holy Spirit), John 3:6;

And its the same word carnal in Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So yes babies are born carnal/flesh which naturally hates God, it just hasnt been manifested yet, at least to men

If you will deal honestly with everything I say, we can have a meaningful discussion. It never happens that way between us. I hope this is different.

Please admit that you're carnal. You were born of the flesh. You need to do this. You just trapped yourself in that very thing.

Those at Corinth hadn't changed. They were still carnal. They had the Spirit of God and were still carnal. So be honest and deal with this.

Now, to deal with your response........

Adam was flesh before what you consider the "fall" to be that established what you believe about "Total Depravity". Flesh comes from the earth.

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

So either tell me Adam wasn't flesh or admit that he was made flesh in the context of the potter and the wheel.

 

[brightfame52]

If you will deal honestly with everything I say, we can have a meaningful discussion. It never happens that way between us. I hope this is different.

Please admit that you're carnal. You were born of the flesh. You need to do this. You just trapped yourself in that very thing.

Those at Corinth hadn't changed. They were still carnal. They had the Spirit of God and were still carnal. So be honest and deal with this.

Now, to deal with your response........

Adam was flesh before what you consider the "fall" to be that established what you believe about "Total Depravity". Flesh comes from the earth.

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

So either tell me Adam wasn't flesh or admit that he was made flesh in the context of the potter and the wheel.

See 446 that's honesty friend.

 

[TibiasDad]

You assuming theyre not. They are born flesh as opposed of the Spirit Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The contrast is between being born physically and reborn spiritually. Nicodemus reacted to Jesus’s words because he did not understand the need for or possibility of spiritual birth. Thus, Jesus corrects and informed him that ‘that which is born physically is physical in nature, and that which is born spiritually is spiritual in nature, so you shouldn’t be surprised that “you must be born again” in spirit.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Here is a fact, as long as man is in the flesh, unregenerate, he can only mind the things of the flesh, which is very reasonable, he minds the things that correspond with his nature. Rom 8:5

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

See that goes for even the very sincere and religious, moral and upright, if they are unregenerate, no matter how noble it appears to society at large, they are only minding the things of the flesh, which is still the wide road to destruction if Gods Salvation doesnt intervene by Sovereign Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Man in the flesh is so totally depraved that in his best state he is altogeher vanity when it comes to God, notice Ps 39:5

5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Vanity=hebel: Vanity, breath, vapor, futility, emptiness

Its associate with idols, for the word is used here in Deut 32 21

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

The english word for vanity #1 means:

inflated pride in oneself or one's appearance : conceit

2
: something that is vain, empty, or valueless

 

[TibiasDad]

Man in the flesh is so totally depraved that in his best state he is altogeher vanity when it comes to God, notice Ps 39:5

5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Vanity=hebel: Vanity, breath, vapor, futility, emptiness

Its associate with idols, for the word is used here in Deut 32 21

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

The english word for vanity #1 means:

inflated pride in oneself or one's appearance : conceit

2
: something that is vain, empty, or valueless

I agree completely; but what does this have to do with anything that I said?


Doug