Total Depravity

TomL said:
Everybody believes man is dead before regeneration

You are confused.
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Okay, so whats the problem ? Being dead man cannot see or hear spiritually. He is in the flesh and cant please God, he has a disobedient nature and on and on. I dont think you really believe man is dead before regeneration
 
brightfame52 said:
Okay, so whats the problem ? Being dead man cannot see or hear spiritually. He is in the flesh and cant please God, he has a disobedient nature and on and on. I dont think you really believe man is dead before regeneration
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The problem is your assumption of what it means to be spiritually dead.

It refers to separation from God, not an inability to see or hear spiritually.

What man may do



Man may repent

Jeremiah 31:18-19
I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me severely, like an untrained calf. Restore me, that I may return, for You are the LORD my God. / After I returned, I repented; and after I was instructed, I struck my thigh in grief. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’

Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.

Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you.

Draw near to God

James 4:8-10
Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. / Grieve, mourn, and weep. Turn your laughter to mourning, and your joy to gloom. / Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

return to the Lord

Isa 55:6–7Seek Yahweh while he lets himself be found; call him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.

Jeremiah 3:12–14 (LEB) — 12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, ‘Return, apostate Israel,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not cause my anger to fall on you. For I am loyal,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt, that against Yahweh your God you have rebelled, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every leafy tree, and you have not obeyed my voice,’ declares Yahweh.” 14 “Return, apostate children,” declares Yahweh. “For I am your master, and I will take you one from a city and two from a clan, and I will bring you to Zion.



Choose to serve God



Joshua 24:15–22 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve Yahweh, for he is a holy and jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake Yahweh and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster to you; he will destroy you after he has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve Yahweh.” 22 And Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves to serve Yahweh.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”


Choose life

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”

Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.



Man is made responsible to wash himself, make himself clean

Isaiah 1:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.

See also Amos 5:4; Zech 1:3
 
TomL said:
The problem is your assumption of what it means to be spiritually dead.
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It does mean Spiritually dead. dead nekros:
  1. metaph.
    1. spiritually dead

      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      2. inactive as respects doing right
    2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
 
Before a person is born again and given a new nature, they will never come to God in a Salvation sense because, b4 new birth, we are just in the flesh and carnal, and the indictment on the carnal mind is this Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In the original its "the carnal mind enmity against God" enmity echthra=Its a noun:
  1. enmity
  2. cause of enmity
Its the word hatred as in Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies

Its a personal hostility towards God, the True God now, not a god of our imagination.
 
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Man is dead in depravity by the fall:

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Dead here is in the indicative, its the word apothnēskō:
  1. to die
    1. of the natural death of man
    2. of the violent death of man or animals
    3. to perish by means of something
    4. of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
    5. of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell
In this scripture dead doesnt mean physical death but:
2. of moral death, in various senses;

a. to be deprived of real life, i. e. especially of the power of doing right,

This is a spiritual death depriving man of any ability to do whats right spiritually b4 the Lord. Thats the state we are in by nature. Hence

Ps 53 3

Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3 12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God emphasized this 5 times in Holy Scripture, the dead state of man
 
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they (the things of God) are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14). Natural man cannot discern the things of God, for man is dead to God. Why else would there be a need for regeneration? Natural man cannot discern the things of God, for they can only be spiritually discerned by those whom God has made alive by grace alone. The spiritually dead cannot discern the things of God.https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-31
 
Jeff said:
Yes, the Bible does indicate that as the time for Christ’s return approaches, evil and social chaos may well intensify. The Bible says that “evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” 2 Timothy 3:13
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Which certainly has happened and it cannot be missed today
 
brightfame52 said:
It does mean Spiritually dead. dead nekros:
  1. metaph.
    1. spiritually dead

      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      2. inactive as respects doing right
    2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
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“Spiritual death” doesn’t mean total inability​


When Scripture says we are “dead in sin” (Ephesians 2:1), some traditions understand that not as absolute incapacity, but as separation from God — like the prodigal son who was “dead and is alive again” (Luke 15:24). He wasn’t incapable of returning; he was relationally lost.


So spiritual death = alienation, not literal paralysis of the will.
 
Eph 2:8

Let’s slow it down and take a deep breath

What the verse clearly says​

Salvation is by grace (it originates in God).

It is through faith (faith is the means by which we receive it).

It is not from yourselves… not by works (so no earning).

What it does not explicitly say:

It does not say faith is irresistibly given only to a predetermined group.

It does not say humans have no meaningful response.

That theological framework comes from how some traditions connect this verse with others — not from this sentence alone.

Can this verse fit free will?​


Yes. Unquestionably.

In a free-will understanding: Grace is God’s initiative and enabling. Faith is the genuine human response to that grace. Salvation remains 100% undeserved. The credit goes to God, not to the believer.

Faith in this view is not a “work.” It’s trust. Receiving a gift does not earn the gift.

If I offer you a gift, your reaching out your hand does not mean you purchased it.

You
 
brightfame52 said:
Total spiritual inability it does mean. Just as a physically dead person means they are totally physically disabled .
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brightfame52 said:
Total spiritual inability it does mean. Just as a physically dead person means they are totally physically disabled .
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Who are you trying to convince......?

It appears that it is yourself for we know better.

I follow you here and on another forum that I dont respond to you on and it is the same thing over and over and over again and you know that that does prove...? Ill let you think on that one for a while.

There is one fact that we all observe with your repetitions.....

You are all over

“For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

And occasionally add vs 9.... not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But do you know what I see as you are repeating the repetitious dialogue you come up with all day, every day to make your point.

You are the poster child of works in trying to explain Eph 2: 8-9 and that certainly has to count if on the other side we find out that Paul was wrong and James was right.... Wonder if in heaven someone like Michael or a lesser angle keeps track of brownie points?.... for you sure would have bunches and bunches.
 
Jesus preached the doctrine of inability Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
The elect understand total depravity, and understand they are sinners/transgressors from, out of the womb Isa 48:8

Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Now even though literally this applied to the nation of israel, nevertheless it has a deeper spiritual application. John Gill writes:
and wast called a transgressor from the womb; from the time of their civil birth, as a people and state, God was their Father that settled and established them; in this sense they were his children, whom he begot, brought up, and nourished; though they rebelled against him, and as soon almost as born, soon after they came out of Egypt, which were the days of their youth, of their infancy as a church and people; witness their murmurings and unbelief, their idolatry in making a golden calf, and worshipping it: and this is applicable to every particular person, and his natural birth, even to everyone of God's elect; who are all conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity; go astray from God from the womb; and the imagination of whose heart is evil from their youth, and are continually transgressing the righteous law of God, and therefore justly deserve this name.
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See all of us are by nature born under the domain of darkness and need to be rescued from it, its nothing man can choose to be out of. Col 1:13

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

While under the power of darkness, we are as to spiritual things, in the darkness of ignorance and unbelief. Luke calls it the power of satan Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
 
brightfame52 said:
See all of us are by nature born under the domain of darkness and need to be rescued from it, its nothing man can choose to be out of. Col 1:13

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

While under the power of darkness, we are as to spiritual things, in the darkness of ignorance and unbelief. Luke calls it the power of satan Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
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1)the deliverance happens through and by faith.

2)and we know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ- ie the gospel

3)the new birth, being born again occurs after one believes and receives the gospel message.

next.................

hope this helps !!!
 
Also by nature we have a innate built in hatred towards the True God Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The word enmity is echthra :

ἔχθρα échthra, ekh'-thrah; feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication, a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.

In Gal 5 20 its hatred

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

And this is against God, the True God, not the god of our own dark imagination.

consequently with are natural carnal mind, we cant be subject to God, His commands and laws. We talking about in Spiritual matters of obedience
 
civic said:
1)the deliverance happens through and by faith.
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False. The Father gets credit for that Col 1:12

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

The Father draws the elect Jn 6:44 Now the word delivered in Vs 13 is the greek word rhyomai:
  1. to draw to one's self, to rescue, to deliver
  2. the deliverer

Before Faith, which is given by God anyway, there is the rescue from the power of darkness.

So the deliverance happens through the Father, and then He made us meet.

God gives us faith when He made us meet ! That word meet :

ikanōsanti:

To make sufficient, to qualify, to enable

Its an aorist active particple:

a completed, punctiliar action, usually occurring before the main verb's action ("having done")

Again God gets the credit, even for our Faith to believe.
 

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