Thomas... My Lord and my God

[praise_yeshua]

I already said I have a free will just like Jesus does. Wait, you don't believe Jesus is the kind of person we should be like?

You're using we to contradict "l" in your replay. I'm not going to let you do this. "We" are nothing alike. The only thing we share in common is flesh.

I'm not going to continue and end this conversation if you deal with what I say.

You're learning from me. It is the only reason you're somewhat engaging with me. I'm not learning anything from you.

 

[TibiasDad]

You did not provide Scripture about your opinions. You said "Jesus and the Father were together and both are eternal in existence, thus they are both God!" Which is something we are all aware the Bible does not say. Hence, there is a pending request for Scripture. If you cannot show what you are claiming I will write it off as additional Trinitarian heresy.

Since when is
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God.” John 1:1-2
not scripture? My comment was about that scripture!

Let me ask this; what things are eternal in nature? And I define eternal as being uncreated/always existing.


Doug

 

[mikesw]

You have it backwards though. You should adhere to some established rules before haphazardly attempting to represent what the Bible says. I'll also ping @synergy

Let's see if you can find a way to agree with this:

1. Do not add to or take away from Scripture
2. Let the Bible interpret itself

Let's practice. Does the Bible say anywhere outside of John 1:1 that the Word was God with God in the beginning?

Wow. your first "practice" event is to take away from scripture.

Then you also neglect that the person reading the Bible is interpreting it. This is commonly recognized except, perhaps, by the unitarians. For the text to take shape in your head, you have to have knowledge similar to what you are reading. That converts the symbols on paper into ideas in your head. In recognition of this concept and your weak post here, we start getting a better idea why you misinterpret scripture.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[mikesw]

Why do you write dispargagingly about what the Bible literally says though? The Bible says the Father is the one and only true God yet it is your thesis to argue against that. Hence, it looks like your argument is the Bible doesn't say what it says.

Again, the one-verse hyper-literatism appears. It is helpful that you bring that verse up again and again and again. We always remember that John 17:3 flows into v5, which speaks of the pre-existence of Christ -- a concept that you pretend is not found in scripture. Thus, you take away from scripture, especially like verse 5.
The second point you keep mistaking is the idea of anyone thinking there is another god called Jesus. Maybe some people think that, but they are as bad as the people who deny the divinity of Christ in the Godhead.
That reminds us of the other hyper-literalism, namely you reject the idea of using words to describe God unless they appear in scripture. That means that you limit the limitless God so as to constrain him to words on a page.

 

[mikesw]

God cannot Sin
God cannot Lie
God cannot Die
We are talking about the Jews killing Jesus. Would they try it if they thought they were picking a fight with God?

That is the evil heart of humanity by showing their hatred toward God. Jesus was sent to die on the cross for our sins and thus give a way of reconciling with God, especially by receiving the Spirit of God in us as new creatures. It becomes obvious where the blindness of unitarians occurs.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Let me ask this; what things are eternal in nature? And I define eternal as being uncreated/always existing.
Doug

Do you have plans to classify yourself as Eternal in the future?

Eternal Life is "Eternal". Doesn't matter when it begins. It never ends.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is the evil heart of humanity by showing their hatred toward God. Jesus was sent to die on the cross for our sins and thus give a way of reconciling with God, especially by receiving the Spirit of God in us as new creatures. It becomes obvious where the blindness of unitarians occurs.

Man's endless problem with knowing God. Paul said it perfectly....

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

The uniqueness of Jesus Christ in relationship to the Father is unmistakable. When anyone resists these facts, they do so because they do not love Jesus Christ like the Father loves the Son.

 

[Runningman]

You are projecting your failings on me. I know who God is, because He lives within me. He has revealed Himself to me through His Scripture, and through His Spirit within me. Jesus, who is both the Son of Man and the Son of God, who was before all things, who made all things that were made, who was with God the Father and is God the Son, who is worthy of all praise, worship, and honor, is my Lord, Savior, God, and Master. Any who dispute His deity serve His enemy, Satan.

Most of the things you say are not Scriptural. I am just giving you what you need to know, even if it is uncomfortable. I am sure the devil would love nothing more than for you to have no idea you got it all wrong and make enemies out of the actual Christians who follow the Scripture.

 

[Runningman]

You're using we to contradict "l" in your replay. I'm not going to let you do this. "We" are nothing alike. The only thing we share in common is flesh.

I'm not going to continue and end this conversation if you deal with what I say.

You're learning from me. It is the only reason you're somewhat engaging with me. I'm not learning anything from you.

The only thing I am learning is how to step by step narrow down where you went wrong. I can see the result of the error because it's evident that you are a trinitarian. We will find the root cause if you continue replying. It's up to you.

 

[Runningman]

Since when is
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God.” John 1:1-2
not scripture? My comment was about that scripture!

Let me ask this; what things are eternal in nature? And I define eternal as being uncreated/always existing.


Doug

Where does the Bible teach outside of John 1:1 that the Word is God?

 

[Runningman]

Wow. your first "practice" event is to take away from scripture.

Then you also neglect that the person reading the Bible is interpreting it. This is commonly recognized except, perhaps, by the unitarians. For the text to take shape in your head, you have to have knowledge similar to what you are reading. That converts the symbols on paper into ideas in your head. In recognition of this concept and your weak post here, we start getting a better idea why you misinterpret scripture.

Thanks for the insight.

I didn't see any agreements or amens. So you're saying you disagree with the below? That would explain a few things.

1. Do not add to or take away from Scripture
2. Let the Bible interpret itself

 

[Runningman]

Again, the one-verse hyper-literatism appears. It is helpful that you bring that verse up again and again and again. We always remember that John 17:3 flows into v5, which speaks of the pre-existence of Christ -- a concept that you pretend is not found in scripture. Thus, you take away from scripture, especially like verse 5.
The second point you keep mistaking is the idea of anyone thinking there is another god called Jesus. Maybe some people think that, but they are as bad as the people who deny the divinity of Christ in the Godhead.
That reminds us of the other hyper-literalism, namely you reject the idea of using words to describe God unless they appear in scripture. That means that you limit the limitless God so as to constrain him to words on a page.

Ok, let's use your rules. So the Word is not God. Okay got it. Now what?

 

[mikesw]

I didn't see any agreements or amens. So you're saying you disagree with the below? That would explain a few things.

1. Do not add to or take away from Scripture
2. Let the Bible interpret itself

Wow. you violate scripture by denying John 1:1 and then raise a concern about disregarding scripture! I suppose you are trying to indict yourself with point 1. I could give an amen to your admission of your violation of that.

You pretend the bible interprets itself as if it is unclear what it thinks of itself. I agree that scripture is the source that our beliefs had to be consistent with. That is why it appears pretty solidly that the Trinitarian concept is the best understanding of God that we have.

 

[mikesw]

Ok, let's use your rules. So the Word is not God. Okay got it. Now what?

Maybe you can explain what you mean. I'm not so sure you can since you are confused on many things.

 

[mikesw]

Where does the Bible teach outside of John 1:1 that the Word is God?

You are so forgetful. It is like sharing scripture with a person who suffers daily strokes. But I do hope you are not suffering from those.
Revelation 19:13–14 (ESV)
13He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
14And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

There. I have given you another passage to deny and forget.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Where does the Bible teach outside of John 1:1 that the Word is God?

Yes, the Bible teaches that the Word is God in several passages beyond John 1:1. For example, John 1:14 states that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," indicating the divine nature of the Word, which is understood to refer to Jesus.

derekzrishmawy.com​

biblicalunitarian.com​

Biblical References to the Word as God​

John 1:1 Context​

• John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This foundational verse establishes the identity of the Word as divine.

Additional New Testament Verses​

John 1:14	"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory..."
Colossians 1:16-17	"For by him all things were created... and in him all things hold together."
Hebrews 1:2-3	"In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son... He is the radiance of God's glory..."

[th]

Verse​

[/th][th]

Reference​

[/th]​

Old Testament Connections​

• Genesis 1:3: "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." This shows God's creative power through His Word.
• Psalm 33:6: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made..." This emphasizes the divine nature of God's Word in creation.

Theological Implications​

• The concept of the Word as God is reinforced through the New Testament, where Jesus is depicted as the agent of creation and the embodiment of God's revelation.
• The term "Logos" used in John 1:1 connects to both Jewish and Greek philosophical traditions, indicating a deep understanding of God's nature and communication.

These verses collectively support the teaching that the Word is indeed God, extending beyond John 1:1.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The only thing I am learning is how to step by step narrow down where you went wrong. I can see the result of the error because it's evident that you are a trinitarian. We will find the root cause if you continue replying. It's up to you.

You don't know Trinitarianism. While I believe in the Holy Trinity, I speak for myself. I don't allow others to speak for me.

Denying Jesus Christ like you do....... places in you a very large group of theological positions that you certainly can't possibly know.

My only goal in this is to defend Jesus Christ from your false claims.

 

[synergy]

You are so forgetful. It is like sharing scripture with a person who suffers daily strokes. But I do hope you are not suffering from those.
Revelation 19:13–14 (ESV)
13He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
14And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

There. I have given you another passage to deny and forget.

That is so true about @Runningman. He is so forgetful that I am forced to carry forward all of his Gaffes that he is responsible for, and to remind him of them when he repeats them. In my past 2 Posts with RM I have had to remind him of 3 of his previous Gaffes.

 

[Runningman]

You don't know Trinitarianism. While I believe in the Holy Trinity, I speak for myself. I don't allow others to speak for me.

Denying Jesus Christ like you do....... places in you a very large group of theological positions that you certainly can't possibly know.

My only goal in this is to defend Jesus Christ from your false claims.

I know what the doctrine of Trintiarianism is completely. Where we are at is that you cannot find it in the Bible. Do you agree that the trinity is neither stated or described in Scripture? Some of you trins will admit that.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, the Bible teaches that the Word is God in several passages beyond John 1:1. For example, John 1:14 states that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," indicating the divine nature of the Word, which is understood to refer to Jesus.

derekzrishmawy.com

biblicalunitarian.com​

Biblical References to the Word as God​

John 1:1 Context​

• John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This foundational verse establishes the identity of the Word as divine.

Additional New Testament Verses​

John 1:14	"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory..."
Colossians 1:16-17	"For by him all things were created... and in him all things hold together."
Hebrews 1:2-3	"In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son... He is the radiance of God's glory..."

[th]
Verse

[/th][th]
Reference

[/th]​

Old Testament Connections​

• Genesis 1:3: "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." This shows God's creative power through His Word.
• Psalm 33:6: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made..." This emphasizes the divine nature of God's Word in creation.

Theological Implications​

• The concept of the Word as God is reinforced through the New Testament, where Jesus is depicted as the agent of creation and the embodiment of God's revelation.
• The term "Logos" used in John 1:1 connects to both Jewish and Greek philosophical traditions, indicating a deep understanding of God's nature and communication.

These verses collectively support the teaching that the Word is indeed God, extending beyond John 1:1.

Keep in mind the Bible context. What we have its literally every page of the Old Testament with no one there named the Word saying or doing anything. We also have the entire New Testament, where the Word never said or did anything. We also never have Jesus being called the Word. Your interpretation is very narrowly focused on John 1:1.

The problem is you are working backwards to attempt to represent the entire Bible around one verse. When has that ever been a good in theology or Biblical disucssions? Never, right?

Here's what I am doing. I am taking the entire Old Testamnet where God is exhaustively identified in the singular as a He, Him, His, etc. I am taking this precedent about who God is and carrying it into the New Testament where God is once again called a He, Him, His, the only true God, the one God, etc. The Bible is clear, explicit, and exhaustive about God being a singular person. Yet God is never referred to as a they or them, referred to as more than one person, never said to be three persons, etc.

So John 1:1 is not about the Word being God. If that was the only thing apostle John ever said, you may have a point, but that isn't all he said. In Acts 4:23-31, John was clear he did not believe Jesus is God or the Creator, but rather God's servant. In 1John 1:1-3, John was clear that the Word is a thing called eternal life.

I believe @synergy put it best several comments back where he made the argument that the Word posesses the qualitiies of God and that makes the Word godly, but not God. Hence, John 1:1 ultimately shows that the Word is not The God. John 1:1 is totally in line with Unitarianism.