101G
Well-known member
yes, as the Spirit speaking, (per Genesis 1:1), but not with blood, flesh and bone, as the Christ, (per John 1:1 to 14) .......... . do you get it now?
now get this correct and it will answer all of your other questions.
101G.
"the Word was God"
- Thread starter Johann
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now get this correct and it will answer all of your other questions.
101G.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
And now give me kavod, Avi, along with Yourself with the kavod which I was having with You before HaOlam came to be [Yn 1:1 3; Prov 8:30; 30:4].
With thine own self (para seautōi). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. Joh_1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (Joh_1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (hēi eichon, imperfect active of echō, I used to have, with attraction of case of hēn to hēi because of doxēi), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” (cf. Joh_17:24). It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book and with the genuineness of these words. But even Harnack admits that the words here and in Joh_17:24 are “undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke” (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132). But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Php_2:5-11).
2. Jesus Christ as Priest.
In the letter to the Hebrews it is this office that receives the emphasis, tying in to the priesthood under the old covenant. The priestly service testifies of the service of atonement: the restoration of the communion with God. Christ Jesus fulfills this service. And yet he does not connect to the Levitical priesthood but he becomes a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7:17). This again places Jesus in a unique position: his sacrifice is not related to any transitoriness, and as a result in does not end up in the realm of repetitiveness, no, he is priest in all eternity. “He entered once for all into the holy places…thus securing an eternal redemption” (Heb. 9:12). He is the definite Mediator between God and man, the high priest who intercedes for us (John 17).
Hebrews connects Jesus to Yahweh
One of the clearest statements that connects Jesus to Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament is Hebrews 1, especially verses 8-12. It is clear from the first few verses of chapter 1 that the subject is Jesus Christ as the Son of God (verse 2). God “made the universe” through the Son and has appointed him the “heir of all things” (verse 2). This Son is “the radiance of God’s glory and “the exact representation of his being” (verse 3). He sustains all things “by his powerful word” (verse 3). Then, in verses 8-12, we read:
But about the Son he [God] says, “Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness, therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” He [God] also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end [italics ours].
The first thing we should notice is that the material in Hebrews 1 comes from several Psalms. The second passage in the selection is quoted from Psalm 102:25-27. This passage refers to Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, the Creator of all that exists. All of Psalm 102 is about Yahweh. Yet, Hebrews is applying this material to Jesus. Only one conclusion is possible: Jesus is God, or Yahweh.
Note also the italicized words above. They show that the Son, Jesus Christ, is called both God and Lord in Hebrews 1. Further, we see that Yahweh’s relationship to the one being addressed was: “God, your God.” Thus, both the one addressing and the one being addressed are God. How can this be, since there is but one God? The answer is in our Trinitarian explanation. The Father is God and the Son is also God. They are two of the three Persons of the one being, God, or Yahweh in the Hebrew language.
In Hebrews 1, Jesus is shown to be the creator and the sustainer of the universe. He “remains the same” (verse 12), or simply “is,” that is, his being is eternal. Jesus Christ is the “exact representation” of the being of God (verse 3). Hence, he must be God as well. It’s no wonder the writer in Hebrews could take passages that described God (Yahweh) and apply them to Jesus. In the words of James White, in pages 133-134 of The Forgotten Trinity:
The writer to the Hebrews shows no compunctions in taking this passage from the Psalter—a passage fit only for describing the eternal Creator himself—and applying it to Jesus Christ… What does it mean that the writer to the Hebrews could take a passage that is only applicable to Yahweh and apply it to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? It means that they saw no problem in making such an identification, because they believed that the Son was, indeed, the very incarnation of Yahweh.
Jesus’ pre-existence in Peter’s writings
Let us look at one more example of how New Testament writings equate Jesus with Yahweh, the Lord or God of the Old Testament. The apostle Peter calls Jesus the “living Stone,” who was “rejected by men but chosen by God” (1 Peter 2:4). To show that Jesus is this living Stone, he quotes from three passages in the Holy Scriptures:
See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.
The phrases come from Isaiah 28:16, Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 8:14. In each case, the statements refer to the Lord, or Yahweh, in their Old Testament context. For example, in Isaiah 8:13-14, it is Yahweh who says:
The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall [italics ours].
For Peter, as for the other New Testament writers, Jesus is to be equated with the Lord of the Old Testament—Yahweh, the God of Israel. (The apostle Paul in Romans 9:32-33 also quotes Isaiah 8:14 to show that Jesus is the “stumbling stone” over whom the unbelieving Jews had stumbled.)
In conclusion, for the New Testament writers, Yahweh has become incarnate in Jesus, the “Rock” of the church. As Paul said of Israel’s God: “They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ” (1 Corinthians 10:3-4, italics ours).
Bibliography
Bowman, Robert M., Jr., Why You Should Believe in the Trinity (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1989).
Macleod, Donald, The Person of Christ (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1998).
White, James R., The Forgotten Trinity (Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publisher, 1998).
Why are you so desperate to divorce the Christ from Yeshua?
Of course Yeshua as pre existent was/haya Imperfect Tense spirit-you are not telling me anything "new" here.
2. Messiah, the abode of
a. As for the seven divisions of Paradise, each of them is twelve myriads of miles in width and twelve myriads of miles in length...The fifth division is built of silver and gold and refined gold, and the finest of gold and glass and bdellium, and through the midst of it flows the river Gihon. The wainscoting is of silver and gold, and a perfume breathes through it more exquisite than the perfume of Lebanon. The coverings of the silver and gold beds are made of purple and blue, woven by Eve, and of scarlet and the hair of goats, woven by angels. Here dwells the Messiah on a palanquin made of the wood of Lebanon, "the pillars thereof of silver, the bottom of gold, the seat of it purple." With him is Elijah. He takes the head of Messiah, and places it in his bosom, and says to him, "Be quiet, for the end draweth nigh." On every Monday and Thursday and on Sabbaths and holidays, the Patriarchs come to him, and the twelve sons of Jacob, and Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, and all the kings of Israel and of Judah, and they weep with him and comfort him, and say unto him, "Be quiet and put trust in thy Creator, for the end draweth nigh. "Also Korah and his company, and Dathan, Abiram, and Absalom come to him on every Wednesday, and ask him: "How long before the end comes full of wonders? When wilt thou bring us life again, and from the abysses of the earth lift us?" The Messiah answers them, "Go to your fathers and ask them"; and when they hear this, they are ashamed, and do not ask their fathers.
b. Moses Meets the Messiah in Heaven
Moses received still another special distinction on the day of his death, for on that day God permitted him to ascend to the lofty place of heaven, and showed him the reward that awaited him in heaven, and the future. The Divine attribute of Mercy appeared there before him and said to him: "I bring glad tidings to thee, at which thou wilt rejoice. Turn to the Throne of Mercy and behold!" Moses turned to the Throne of Mercy and saw God build the Temple of jewels and pearls, while between the separate gems and pearls shimmered the radiance of the Shekinah, brighter than all jewels. And in this Temple he beheld the Messiah, David's son, and his own brother Aaron, standing erect, and dressed in the robe of the high priest. Aaron then said to Moses: "Do not draw near, for this is the place where the Shekinah dwells, and know that no one may enter here before he have tasted of death and his soul have been delivered to the Angel of Death."
Moses now fell upon his face before God, saying, "Permit me to speak to Thy Messiah before I die."
God then said to Moses: "Come, I shall teach thee My great name, that the flames of the Shekinah consume thee not." When the Messiah, David's son, and Aaron beheld Moses approach them, they knew that God had taught him the great name, so they went to meet him and saluted him with the greeting: "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Moses thereupon said to the Messiah: "God told me that Israel was to erect a Temple to Him upon earth, and I now see Him build His own Temple, and that, too, in heaven!" The Messiah replied: "Thy father Jacob saw the Temple that will be erect on earth, and also the Temple that God rears with His own hand in heaven, and he clearly understood that it was the Temple God constructed with His own hand in heaven as a house of jewels, of pearls, and of the light of the Shekinah, that was to be preserved for Israel to all eternity, to the end of all generations. This was in the night when Jacob slept upon a stone, and in his dream beheld one Jerusalem upon earth, and another in heaven. God then said to Jacob, 'My son Jacob, today I stand above thee as in the future thy children will stand before Me.' At the sight of these two Jerusalems, the earthly and the heavenly, Jacob said: 'The Jerusalem on earth is nothing, this is not the house that will be preserved for my children in all generations, but in truth that other house of God, that He builds with His own hands.' But if thou sayest," continued the Messiah, "that God with His own hands builds Himself a Temple in heaven, know then that with His hands also He will build the Temple upon earth."
When Moses heard these words from the mouth of the Messiah, he rejoiced greatly, and lifting up his face to God, he said, "O Lord of the world! When will this Temple built here in heaven come down to earth below?" God replied: "I have made known the time of this event to no creature, either to the earlier ones or to the later, how then should I tell thee?" Moses said: "Give me a sign, so that out of the happenings in the world I may gather when that time will approach." God: "I shall first scatter Israel as with a shovel over all the earth, so that they may be scattered among all nations in the four corners of the earth, and then shall I 'set My hand again the second time,' and gather them in that migrated with Jonah, the son of Amittai, to the land of Pathros, and those that dwell in the land of Shinar, Hamath, Elam, and the islands of the sea."
c. Quite new is the conception of the secret chamber of the Messiah in paradise which is called...by the peculiar name "bird's nest." On the whole, the Messiah plays an important part in this description of the life of the pious in paradise. Old is the view that the pious, particularly the patriarchs and the Messiah, grieve over Israel's suffering, and pray to God for their redemption.
Interesting that in rabbinical writings no mention of "divorcing" the Messiah from His Anointing.
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
MY God when will you ever LEARN, Listen .... 101G need only one scripture to answer you here. Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."
101G.
Get your Dictionary and look up Imperfect Tense. In Koine Greek. What you are doing is nit picking re pre-existence and always existed-I use it synonymously but with greater detail when dealing with, say, JW's
Thanks
J.
Here-let me help you, since you and I are talking PAST each other.
spoken by the prophets. Compare 2Ki_17:13. Heb_1:1. 2Pe_1:21.
I am he, I am the first, and I also am the last; the everlasting I AM, the immutable Jehovah, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first cause and last end of all things; phrases expressive of the self-existence, supremacy, eternity, and immutability of Christ, Rev_1:8, and what is it that such a sovereign, eternal and unchangeable Being cannot do?
Again-something you missed-
1. A number of reasons are given as to why Israel should hearken unto the voice of Jehovah.
a. His deity is absolute, eternal and unchangable: "I am he: I Am the first, I also am the last", (comp. Rev_1:8; Rev_1:11; Rev_1:17; Rev_22:13); everyone ought to obey God! (Act_5:29)
b. He is the Creator of Israel, and of all things, (vs. 13; Exo_20:11; Psa_102:25; Col_1:17; Joh_1:3; Heb_1:3; Heb_1:10-12; Isa_42:5-6; Isa_45:12; Isa_45:18).
c. By His providential power He directs and controls all things, (vs. 14-15; Isa_40:26).
1) He is raising up a Deliverer for Israel - a passage that alludes to Cyrus, who will deliver them from Babylon, (Isa_44:28; Isa_45:1; Isa_46:10-11; Isa_13:1-17; Isa_21:2; Dan_5:31); but, it also looks beyond him to the Christ Who, in His wrath, will destroy "mystery Babylon", (Revelation 17).
2) He (the Christ) will prosper in the accomplishment of all that He has purposed.
d. His power to foretell the future, and bring it to pass, should cause His erring people to hear and obey His voice, (vs. 16a; Act_15:18; Amo_7:14-15; 2Pe_1:21).
2. In the latter part of verse 16 the divine trinity is clearly evident: Christ, the speaker, is sent by "the Lord GOD ...and His Spirit", (comp. Isa_61:1; Isa_11:2; Isa_42:1; Zec_2:8-12).
The Abrahamic God= a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah)=0 doubt in all creation--false reasoning makes it otherwise, by these-2Cor 11:12-15--there are many of them, 99% of all religions on earth are false.
Involved= that the true Living God-YHWH(Jehovah) created all other things-THROUGH- Jesus. Col 1:15-16
101G
Well-known member
No-you don't know what an Imperfect is-it should "want" to chance
101G
Well-known member
AND? read1 Peter 1:10 & 11 ........ (smile), now tell us all where was the Lord Jesus? ......... which answers your 2Pe_1:21.
2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." ... Oh Dear.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
are you blind? this is the Lord Jesus in the ECHAD of First/Father, and Last/Son.... J, STOP and please put your thinking cap on ...... please.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
ok, alright...... let 101G ask you a question, Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" Hebrews 1:11 "They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;"
now, just two questions.
A. the Son as God in verse 8 is the definite article, correct.
B. Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, correct.
now this. Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."
now 101G will ask you, "what title do the Son wear? Lord, or LORD, or both, or which one(s)....... read the two verses above again, think before you answer.
101G.
One question to you-are you familiar with the Septuagint?
1:8 "Thy throne, O God, is forever"
This is a quote from the Septuagint of Ps. 45:6, which addresses the Messianic King.
In the OT context the pronoun is very ambiguous and can refer to God the Father or God the Son. However, in this text it seems that this is one of the strongest affirmations of the deity of Christ found anywhere in the Scriptures (cf. John 1:18; 20:28).
There is a significant Greek manuscript problem at this point. Some very early manuscripts (P46, א, and B) have the pronoun (autou, i.e., "His throne") which adds to the ambiguity. The United Bible Society's fourth edition supports "your" with a "B" rating (the text is almost certain). This form is found in the uncial manuscripts A and D and is the exact quote from the Septuagint of Ps. 45:6. Often ancient scribes tended to make texts more explicit, especially if they relate to Christological debates of their day (cf. Bart D. Ehrman The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, Oxford Press, 1993, p. 265).
This discussion is not meant in any way to deny the full deity of Christ, but to show the tendency of ancient scribes to alter texts for theological as well as grammatical purposes. This is why the modern academic discipline of Textual Criticism judges manuscript variants based on the following.
1. the most unusual reading is probably original
2. the reading that explains the other variants is probably original
3. the reading with a wide geographical distribution (not just one family of manuscripts) is probably original
Bart Ehrman's book also makes the point that scribes made changes to the Greek text for theological purposes, especially during the periods of conflict over Christology and the Trinity (i.e., third and fourth centuries).
"forever and ever"
This obviously does not refer to a millennial reign, but the eternal reign (cf. Isa. 9:8; Dan. 7:14,18; Luke 1:33; 2 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 11:15).
One Greek idiomatic phrase is "unto the ages" (cf. Luke 1:33; Rom. 1:25; 11:36; 16:27; Gal. 1:5; 1 Tim. 1:17), which may reflect the Hebrew 'olam. See Robert B. Girdlestone, Synonyms of the Old Testament, pp. 321-319. Other related phrases are "unto the age" (cf. Matt. 21:19 [Mark 11:14]; Thess. 1:55; John 6:58; 8:35; 12:34; 13:8; 14:16; 2 Cor. 9:9) and "of the age of the ages" (cf. Eph. 3:21).
There seems to be no distinction between these idioms for "forever." The term "ages" may be plural in a figurative sense of the rabbinical grammatical construction called "the plural of majesty" or it may refer to the concept of several "ages" in the Jewish sense of "age of innocence," "age of wickedness," "age to come," or "age of righteousness."
Thy throne, O God (ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς)
I retain the vocative, although the translation of the Hebrew is doubtful. The following renderings have been proposed: “thy throne (which is a throne) of God”: “thy throne is (a throne) of God”: “God is thy throne.” Some suspect that the Hebrew text is defective.
O God (ho theos). This quotation (the fifth) is from Psa_45:7. A Hebrew nuptial ode (epithalamium) for a king treated here as Messianic. It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative (address with the nominative form as in Joh_20:28 with the Messiah termed theos as is possible, Joh_1:18) or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” Either makes good sense.
1:9 "you have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness" This is a quote from the Septuagint of Ps. 45:7 which relates to the earthly life of Jesus Christ.
"has anointed you"
The Hebrew term "anointed" (mashiach, BDB 603) is the OT word for Messiah (masiah). In the OT prophets, priests, and kings were anointed with olive oil as a symbol of God's choice and provision for an assigned task. In this context it also refers to the cultural usage of olive oil at a time of joy and feasting (cf. Isa. 53:11).
"above your companions"
This is a continuation of the quote from the Septuagint of Ps. 45:6-7.
Every detail of the Psalm should not be forced into a theological affirmation relating to Jesus. The phrase could relate to Jesus' superiority over (1) angels; (2) Israel1 Kings: (3) worldly rulers; or (4) redeemed mankind.
1:10 "you Lord"
Only the Septuagint translation of Ps. 102:25 includes the word "Lord" which refers to YHWH, but in this context it refers to Jesus.
This is another contextual reason why Heb. 1:9 also refers to Jesus as "God."
"laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands"
This is an allusion to 1:2 of Jesus being the Father's agent in creation.
Genesis 1 asserts Elohim's creation by the spoken word (cf. Gen. 1:3,6,9,14,20,24,26), while Genesis 2 affirms YHWH's direct personal involvement, implying "hands on" fashioning of Adam and Eve from clay (cf. Gen. 2:7,8,19,22). This quote (Ps. 102:25) extends the personal metaphor to all physical creation.
1:11 "they will perish but you will remain; And they all will become old like a garment"
This again shows the eternality of the Son. In the OT the prophets often use a court scene to communicate YHWH's displeasure at His rebellious wife, Israel. He takes "her" (Israel) to divorce court and calls on the two required witnesses (cf. Deut. 19:15)—the two most permanent witnesses, "heaven and earth"—to corroborate His testimony. Even these two most permanent witnesses will pass away. This quote suggests two possible scenarios: (1) the first verb (apollumi) has the connotation of violent destruction (cf. 2 Pet. 3:10) and (2) the second phrase implies a growing old and passing away like a piece of clothing.
This is another comparison of the instability of the created order (angels, creation) versus the permanence and stability of God's throne and Son!
1:12 "but you are the same" This is a quote from the Septuagint of Ps. 102:27. This same concept (immutability) is used in Heb. 13:8 to describe the unchangingness of Jesus. Angels change, heaven and earth change, Jesus does not change, herein is mankind's hope (cf. Mal. 3:6; James 1:17).
"your years will not come to an end"
As the previous phrase addresses the stability of Jesus' character, this one addresses the permanence of His person.
1:13 "Sit at My right hand"
This is a quote from the Septuagint of Ps. 110:1.
This is a wonderful Messianic Psalm quoted and alluded to often in Hebrews (cf. Heb. 1:3,13; 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:3,11,17,21; 8:1; 10:12-13; 12:2). It combines the royal (Heb. 1:1-3) and priestly (Heb. 1:4-7) aspects of the Messiah (as do the two olive trees of Zech. 4). Notice the two forms of "lord"; the first is YHWH, the second is Adon (Lord). David's Lord (the Messiah) sits on YHWH's (lord) throne, in the place of authority and power. This never, never, never happens to angels!
Not good enough for @101G -unless you want to start a thread where it is between me and you.
And where do you "put" Yeshua?
101G
Well-known member
No-@101G don't epignosis.
