The Water Baptism of Cornelius

[Seabass]

'A devout man,
and one that feared God with all his house,
which gave much alms to the people,
and prayed to God alway.'
(Act 10:2)

'And they said, Cornelius the centurion,
a just man, and one that feareth God,
and of good report among all the nation of the Jews,
was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house,
and to hear words of thee.'
(Act 10:22)

Hello @Olde Tymer, and @Seabass,

The description we have of Cornelius, declares that he was a proselyte, being a just man and one that 'feared God', who acted righteously, giving alms to God's People Israel: thereby receiving, 'a good report,' among them, and who prayed to God always. He heard the words spoken by Peter, who spoke in obedience to God the Holy Spirit:-

' ... ... in every nation he that feareth Him,
and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel,
preaching peace by Jesus Christ: ( He is Lord of all )
That word, I say, ye know,
which was published throughout all Judaea,
and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:
Who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil;
for God was with Him.
And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem;
whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him God raised up the third day, and shewed Him openly;
Not to all the people,
but unto witnesses chosen before of God,
even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead.
And He commanded us to preach unto the people,
and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God
to be the Judge of quick and dead.
To Him give all the prophets witness,
that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.'
(Act 10:35-43)

From this we can see that Peter was assured that Cornelius knew about the Lord Jesus Christ, and had heard both what the Lord had preached, and what was preached also by John the Baptist, so he was not ignorant concerning the Gospel of the Kingdom which both preached. So Peter witnessed to Cornelius concerning the things that he had seen and heard as one who was a Disciple and was with the Lord Jesus Christ constantly throughout His earthly ministry, who also witnessed His death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. Calling on the witness of the Old Testament Prophets, who, by revelation of God, had testified in advance of both His person and His work, ending with the assurance that whosoever believed in Him would receive remission of sins, through His Name.

As faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17), Cornelius and the company with him, heard and received by faith the gospel preached by Peter, for the Holy Spirit confirmed it by falling on them that heard the word (v. 44): and they spoke with other tongues, magnifying God. They were then baptised in the name of the Lord, having received the remission of sins. So, God had granted unto the Gentiles also repentance unto life (Acts 11:18).

It was on hearing the word of God, spoken by Peter, that Cornelius and his company were saved (Acts 11:14), and not before.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The context tells us Cornelius would be saved by words (Acts 11:14) NOT by being baptized with the HS for no verse teaches baptism with the HS remits sins. And those saving words of Acts 14:11 contained the command from God to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

The fact water baptism was commanded and is to be done 'in the name of the Lord (by the Lord's delegated authority) makes water baptism essential to Cornelius' salvation if for no other reason. Going against God's commands, going against the Lord's delegated authority is sin in doing unrighteousness. Yet Cornelius had to work righteounsess (Acts 10:35) to be accepted with God and obeying that command to be water baptized is how he was accepted with God. 1 Jn 3:10 one who continues to not do righteousness (not obey God's commands) continues to not be of God. Since Jew and Gentile are saved in a "like manner" way (Acts 15:11) then the same baptism commanded the Jews in Acts 2:38 is the exact same baptism commanded Gentiles in Acts 10:47-48). Baptism with the HS has nothing to do with the salvation of Jews or Gentiles.

Hence being baptized with the HS had nothing to do with his receiving or obeying those saving words, was not how he would work righteouness and be accepted with God was not how he would obey the command to be water baptized for the remission of sins.

The purpose of God giving Peter a vision that the Gentiles were 'clean' and baptizing the Gentiles with the HS had nothing to do with the salvation of the Gentiles but was done to prove to the Jews that salvation was not just for them but to also go to the Gentiles. Hence Peter said of any man "forbid water" would be going against God in salvation going to the Gentiles by means of water baptism. In Acts 11 Peter had to thn go to Jerusalem and contend with the Jews there as to why he took salvation to the Gentiles.....

"Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying..." Acts 11:4

Peter then relates the events of Acts 10 by order as they occurred and Peter says "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning." The HS fell on them as Peter BEGAN to speak those saving words and they could not be saved BEFORE they heard those saving words. Hence further proof baptism with the HS had nothing to do with the personal salvation of the Gentiles.

As Peter recounts how God gave him a vision on how the Gentiles were "clean" and how the HS fell upon the Gentiles and they spake in tongues, that convinced the Jews salvation was to go to the Gentiles for when the Jews "heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Hence the vision and baptism with the HS was to prove to the Jews salvation was to also go to the Gentiles and not the supposed proof Cornelius was already saved BEFORE he heard those saving words, BEFORE he worked righteousness and be accepted with God BEFORE he obeyed the command to be water baptized.

Furthermore:

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" The logical implication is being baptized is receiving the word and those who rejected baptism rejected the word. Cornelius rejecting the command to be water baptized would be rejecting those saving words. In Acts 8 Simon and the Samaritans "believed and were baptized" (vs 12,13). Then v14 says "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:" How did they receive the word of God in Acts 2? By being baptized. Same here in Acts 8 for Simon and Samaritans rejecting baptism would be rejecting the word of God.
Acts 11:1 "And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God." How did the Gentiles also receive the word of God as the Jews in Acts 2? By obeying the command to be water baptized. Cornelius rejecting water baptism is rejecting those saving words. Being baptized with the HS has NOTHING to do with receiving those saving words of the gospel and being saved.


2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Since there is but one like manner way for all to be saved rthen all must obey the gospel of Christ else be in flaming fire. This is true with Cornelius. Therefore his pbeying the command to being water baptized is HOW he obeyed the gospel. The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). Since one must obey the gospel and the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ how does one obey this? The Bible tells us in ROm 6 a Christian is one who has died to sin, sho no longer livis in some therefore in obeying the gospel one must die to sin, the old man of sin DIES, he is "Buried" in a watery grave from which he is resurrected "raised up from" to then walk in newness of life. There is no death burial or resurrection associated with any "spirit baptism" or saying a "sinner's prayer" or to simple beleif onlyism in a mental assent of them simply acknowledging facts apart from doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21) in submitting to the command to being water baptized (Acts 2:38 cf Acts 10:47-48).

Lastly:

Acts 10:43
"whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Acts 15:7
"....that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."

Since there is but one way to be saved/remission of sins then beliving is necessary part of being saved but the Bible shows that believing INCLUDES being water baptized:

Acts 10:42-----believeth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remission of sins
Acts 2:38----repent & be baptized >>>>>>>>>> remission of sins.

Again, just one way to be saved then belief MUST include repentance and water baptism.

Acts 2:44
"And all that believed were together". Who were the ones said to have "believed" in Acts 2? the ones who rejected the command to be water baptied thus rejecting the word of GOd? No!! The ones who "beleived" are the ones who accepted Peter's word by submitting to water baptism.


For Peter to command water baptism to those who supposedly are ALREADY SAVED would be contradictory to his affirming baptism is "for the remission of sins" of Acts 2 or that "baptism doeth also now save you" ( Pet 3:21). And conflict with Paul in his being water baptized to have his sins washed away.

 

[Seabass]

Nope

Yep.

 

[Johann]

Yep.

Nope.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Seabass]

God has commanded men to not sin (1 Corinthians 15:34). Have you obeyed this command?

Doing the will of the Father is to believe in the Son (John 6:40).

1 Cor 15 those Corinthians were involved in sinful error having been deceived. They are being admonished, commanded by Paul not to keep on (present tense) being deceived, not keep on being in sin. This is not a command for them to be perfectly sinless for they could not. God never requires of us perfect sinlessness but a simple faithful obedience and God offers the avenue of repentance to the Christian when he fails and comes short of God's will.

Are you suggesting God requires perfectly sinlessness and since man cannot do such man does not have to obey this command therefore man does not have to obey any command mking all CHrist's commmands and the NT meaningless, useless, worthless??

 

[Seabass]

Nope.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I see nothing in these verses that counters/contradicts the command to be water baptized?

 

[Johann]

Yep.

Nope.

I see nothing in these verses that counters/contradicts the command to be water baptized?

Do you see water baptism in this verse?

THE OLD MAN DEAD AND BURIED.​

“HOW SHALL WE THAT ARE DEAD TO SIN, LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN? KNOW YE NOT, THAT SO MANY OF US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? THEREFORE WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: THAT LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, EVEN SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.” Romans 6:2 to 4.

From these verses, Romans 6:2 to 4, certain immersionists teach that water baptism should be a burial under water (although they admit that Christ was buried above the ground). According to Romans 6:6, the believer’s old man was crucified when Christ received His death baptism. Luke 12:47 to 51. To witness to the world that his old man was crucified, the believer should be immersed and thereby show that he has also been buried.

It is a known fact that nothing will arouse the immersionists’ old man more than to question his peculiar theory of a watery grave, which was his witness that his old man was dead. Every believer is dead to sin and raised to walk in newness of life and seated in the heavenlies With Christ the moment he receives Christ in salvation, without water baptism of any kind. How can he be dead and raised without being buried? The baptism into death and the burial baptism of Romans 6:2 to 4 is both meritorious and efficacious and produces the change in the believer. If it is water, then water is essential to salvation. Nearly all immersionists, who read water into Romans 6, become religious judges, judging saved Presbyterians, saved Lutherans and all other believers who repudiate their fanciful interpretation and reject their water theory. Every sprinkled saved Lutheran, Presbyterian and Methodist has been buried by baptism with Christ. Colossians 2:12. To read “water” into Colossians 2:12 is unsound exegesis.

HOUSEHOLD IMMERSIONISTS.​

“MOREOVER, BRETHREN, I WOULD NOT THAT YE SHOULD BE IGNORANT, HOW THAT ALL OUR FATHERS WERE UNDER THE CLOUD, AND ALL PASSED THROUGH THE SEA; AND WERE ALL BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES IN THE CLOUD AND IN THE SEA.” I Corinthians 10:1 and 2.
“NOW THESE THINGS WERE OUR EXAMPLES, TO THE INTENT WE SHOULD NOT LUST AFTER EVIL THINGS AS THEY ALSO LUSTED. I Corinthians 10:6.

Undoubtedly there were thousands of little children who crossed the Red Sea with their parents, about 1492 B.C. Read Exodus 14:29: “The children of Israel walked upon DRY land in the midst of the sea”. These household immersionists should drain the water out of their baptisteries. Here then we have another fanciful theory; and that is, that believers’ babies should be immersed because of I Corinthians 10:6, quoted above. But the “wherefore” of I Corinthians 10:12 is the key to the argument.

The children of Israel were baptized unto Moses by two great miracles, but in spite of other supernatural Divine tokens, Israel yielded to temptation. By the miracle of regeneration, by a Divine baptism not made with hands, we were joined to Christ. We should be careful about stumbling, remembering the experience of Israel in the wilderness. Some religious leader started this water theory and some splendid servants of the Lord followed their teaching; and thus another tradition; and little infants are immersed in bath tubs.

It is needless to say that these household immersionists are “water heretics” in the judgment of other immersionists who contend for “believer’s” baptism. These two opposing factions have brought much grief into the ranks of the Plymouth Brethren, who are strong on the water. Both factions believe that the Body of Christ began on the day of Pentecost; but they offer no explanation as to why they do not preach the water message and practice the order of Acts 2:38, Acts 8:5 to 15 and Acts 19:1 to 7. But all must acknowledge that during the “Acts” period households received water baptism. Acts 10:48 and Acts 11:14, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, I Corinthians 1:16. We may argue until we leave this world and dogmatically and Pharisaically contend for our water theories; but we cannot Scripturally prove that there were not some small children in some of those households. Neither can we prove by one single Scripture that sprinkling took the place of circumcision.

Thus we learn that all baptism ceremonies have been adopted, not by careful study of the Scriptures, but by the traditions of church fathers.

In the midst of such confusion, and with all the “big” Bible-teachers in disagreement, I am more and more inclined to believe that we are taught, by Ephesians 4:3 to 7 and Ephesians 3:8 and 9, that water has no place in the dispensation of the mystery;” only the one Divine baptism.

 

[Seabass]

Incorect-o-mundo.

The Holy Spirit IS salvation as Jonah said, "Salvation is of the Lord."

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Jn 1:4–5.

Since the Holy Spirit is life, He can only bring life once He indwells a person. He shined in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not. Completely void of understanding it and completely foreign when it shined. The result will always end in life. It's just who He is.

Concerning King Saul, he was in covenant and already saved (and/or destined to salvation at the last day.) The Holy Spirit's departure was necessary as His leaving stripped him of the authority to rule God's people. And, unlike the Catholic history of there at one time being three popes, there could not be the Holy Spirit with Saul and also with David who was already anointed to be king. Something had to give, and the Holy Spirit departed Saul in order to bring authority to David who was God's choice to be king.

The lesson that should be taken with regard to Cornelius was the fact he was a God-Fearer. For all intents and purposes, he was already an "Israelite" (being Gentile) except for the circumcision. He was one cut short of officially being a covenant person. Everybody in the house knew this. The lesson is that this close associate to Jewry who only needed to be circumcised (as well as give sacrifice, make vows, etc.), and yet the Holy Spirit of Promise (to Israel) saved him, and he received the promise and didn't have to commit to circumcision. This was an amazing thing in the minds of Peter and his Jewish buddies. It wasn't that God was saving Gentiles, for being a God-Fearer he wasn't necessarily Gentile anymore - and he wasn't a Jew - so having made most all preparations to become a Gentile convert and included in the Abrahamic Covenant were performed except the last one: circumcision. The Holy Spirit was promised to Israel, not Gentiles. But he was one step away from being Israel when the Holy Spirit filled him. Gentile proselytes are circumcised and have taken vows and offered sacrifice, etc., and would be the "Gentiles" referred to in the New Covenant writings. It does not definitely refer to hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant, fresh-out-of-their-idol worshiping-temple-Gentiles (as many believe.) God keeps covenant. And it seems to me being a near-covenant Gentile God-Fearer was close enough.

The HS requires men to be water baptized to be saved, Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-47; 1 Cor 1:13; Gal 3:27; Col 2:11-12; 1 Pet 3:21; etc.

Cornelius was therefore lost, though a god fering, righteous person, having not heard and obeyed the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8) and would remoan lost unless/until he heard those saving words and obeyed them.

The argument is made tht since Corenlius was baptized with the HS and spoke in tongues that must prove he saved. Yet the context of Acts 10 and 11 do not support this. In an earlier post I went over the 3 things in the context that would save Cornelius:
1) saving words Acts 11:14
2) working righteosuness to be accepted with God Acts 10:35
3) obey the command to be water baptized Actsd 10:47 cf Acts 2:38

For anyone to calim these 3 things are not sufficent to be saved is make a false claim. These 3 things were sufficent to save all in the Acts conversion and baptism with the HS and speaking in tongues had nothing to with the salvation of people in those conversions.

 

[Seabass]

Nope.

Do you see water baptism in this verse?

No, nor do I see repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Matt 10:32-33) nor grace (Rom 5:2) in these verses but that does not mean they are not necessary to salvation.

There dozens upon dozens of verses that deal with salvation and on must consider "all the counsel of God" to fully understand what the Bible requires to be saved. A "one verse theology" or cherry picked verses leaves one in error for such devices fail to consider all God has to say about the subject of salvation. These are devices generally used to promote a personal, biased agenda.

 

[Johann]

For anyone to calim these 3 things are not sufficent to be saved is make a false claim. These 3 things were sufficent to save all in the Acts conversion and baptism with the HS and speaking in tongues had nothing to with the salvation of people in those conversions.

Should I listen to you-or the Scriptures?

THE OLD MAN DEAD AND BURIED.
“HOW SHALL WE THAT ARE DEAD TO SIN, LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN? KNOW YE NOT, THAT SO MANY OF US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? THEREFORE WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: THAT LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, EVEN SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.” Romans 6:2 to 4.

From these verses, Romans 6:2 to 4, certain immersionists teach that water baptism should be a burial under water (although they admit that Christ was buried above the ground). According to Romans 6:6, the believer’s old man was crucified when Christ received His death baptism. Luke 12:47 to 51. To witness to the world that his old man was crucified, the believer should be immersed and thereby show that he has also been buried.

It is a known fact that nothing will arouse the immersionists’ old man more than to question his peculiar theory of a watery grave, which was his witness that his old man was dead. Every believer is dead to sin and raised to walk in newness of life and seated in the heavenlies With Christ the moment he receives Christ in salvation, without water baptism of any kind. How can he be dead and raised without being buried? The baptism into death and the burial baptism of Romans 6:2 to 4 is both meritorious and efficacious and produces the change in the believer. If it is water, then water is essential to salvation. Nearly all immersionists, who read water into Romans 6, become religious judges, judging saved Presbyterians, saved Lutherans and all other believers who repudiate their fanciful interpretation and reject their water theory. Every sprinkled saved Lutheran, Presbyterian and Methodist has been buried by baptism with Christ. Colossians 2:12. To read “water” into Colossians 2:12 is unsound exegesis.

HOUSEHOLD IMMERSIONISTS.
“MOREOVER, BRETHREN, I WOULD NOT THAT YE SHOULD BE IGNORANT, HOW THAT ALL OUR FATHERS WERE UNDER THE CLOUD, AND ALL PASSED THROUGH THE SEA; AND WERE ALL BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES IN THE CLOUD AND IN THE SEA.” I Corinthians 10:1 and 2.

“NOW THESE THINGS WERE OUR EXAMPLES, TO THE INTENT WE SHOULD NOT LUST AFTER EVIL THINGS AS THEY ALSO LUSTED. I Corinthians 10:6.

Undoubtedly there were thousands of little children who crossed the Red Sea with their parents, about 1492 B.C. Read Exodus 14:29: “The children of Israel walked upon DRY land in the midst of the sea”. These household immersionists should drain the water out of their baptisteries. Here then we have another fanciful theory; and that is, that believers’ babies should be immersed because of I Corinthians 10:6, quoted above. But the “wherefore” of I Corinthians 10:12 is the key to the argument.

The children of Israel were baptized unto Moses by two great miracles, but in spite of other supernatural Divine tokens, Israel yielded to temptation. By the miracle of regeneration, by a Divine baptism not made with hands, we were joined to Christ. We should be careful about stumbling, remembering the experience of Israel in the wilderness. Some religious leader started this water theory and some splendid servants of the Lord followed their teaching; and thus another tradition; and little infants are immersed in bath tubs.

It is needless to say that these household immersionists are “water heretics” in the judgment of other immersionists who contend for “believer’s” baptism. These two opposing factions have brought much grief into the ranks of the Plymouth Brethren, who are strong on the water. Both factions believe that the Body of Christ began on the day of Pentecost; but they offer no explanation as to why they do not preach the water message and practice the order of Acts 2:38, Acts 8:5 to 15 and Acts 19:1 to 7. But all must acknowledge that during the “Acts” period households received water baptism. Acts 10:48 and Acts 11:14, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, I Corinthians 1:16. We may argue until we leave this world and dogmatically and Pharisaically contend for our water theories; but we cannot Scripturally prove that there were not some small children in some of those households. Neither can we prove by one single Scripture that sprinkling took the place of circumcision.

Thus we learn that all baptism ceremonies have been adopted, not by careful study of the Scriptures, but by the traditions of church fathers.

In the midst of such confusion, and with all the “big” Bible-teachers in disagreement, I am more and more inclined to believe that we are taught, by Ephesians 4:3 to 7 and Ephesians 3:8 and 9, that water has no place in the dispensation of the mystery;” only the one Divine baptism.

 

[Johann]

No, nor do I see repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Matt 10:32-33) nor grace (Rom 5:2) in these verses but that does not mean they are not necessary to salvation.

THE THREE BAPTISMS OF CHRIST
SHOULD CHRISTIANS FOLLOW CHRIST IN BAPTISM?

Very seldom do Christians refer to the third baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ. We do hear
many, many Christians speak of following Christ in baptism; but of course they are not referring
to His third baptism. Let us carefully and spiritually consider the Scriptures that tell us of
Christ’s three baptisms

“And he (John the Baptist) came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism
of repentance for the remission of sins.” (Luke 3:3).
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized,
and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove
upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, ‘Thou art My beloved Son; in Thee I am
well pleased.’” (Luke 3:21 and 22).
“But I (Jesus) have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be
accomplished!” (Luke 12:50).
“And He saith unto them, ‘Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the
baptism that I am baptized with.’” (Matthew 20:23).

This last statement was Christ’s words concerning the apostle John and his brother James
at the time their mother asked Christ for special seats of honour for these two sons. Of course,
they are to have a special seat of honour with ten other apostles in the age to come; for note
Christ’s words concerning His twelve apostles in Matthew 19:28:
“And Jesus said unto them Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the
regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon
twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
James has not yet been placed on that throne. But he did receive his DEATH baptism
about twelve years after Christ received His DEATH baptism. Note Acts 12:1 and 2: “Now
about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he
killed James the brother of John with the sword.”


Thus we see that Christ’s crucifixion unto death is called Christ’s BAPTISM. And we see
that James received his third baptism when Herod killed James with a sword.

Christ received His
third BAPTISM by the will of God from Pilate. James received his third baptism from Herod.
Did James follow Christ in baptism? Christ received the Holy Spirit, in a special manner,
when He was thirty years old (Luke 3:22 and 23). This was at the time He was baptized with
water. If the twelve apostles received water baptism before John baptized Christ, then Christ
followed James in that baptism which was that Christ might be made manifest to Israel (John
1:31).

James did follow Christ in Holy Spirit baptism; for about four years after the Dove
descended upon Christ at Jordan, some days after Christ’s baptism (death) at Calvary, the
Saviour said to James and others, “ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days
hence” (Acts 1:5). James did follow Christ in DEATH baptism; for James died at the hands of
Herod about twelve years after Christ was crucified at Calvary.

But James received another DEATH baptism, if he received the DEATH baptism of
Romans 6:3: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized
into his death?” These were baptized into the BAPTISM of Christ mentioned in Luke 12:50.

When James received his DEATH baptism from Herod, he was a martyr for Christ’s sake, and in
that sense, he drank of Christ’s cup and was baptized with Christ’s baptism, in fulfillment of
Matthew 20:23. When Christ received His DEATH baptism, He was God’s foreordained
Sin-bearer, God’s spotless Lamb dying to bear away the sin of the world. (I Peter 1:18 to 21;
Hebrews 2:9).

The DEATH baptism of Matthew 20:23 was physical death. The DEATH baptism
of Romans 6:3, spiritual.

Perhaps we would be stirred to serious thought and intelligent understanding of the
Divine truth, if we would substitute “BAPTIZED” for “crucified” in Galatians 2:20 and read it
thus: “I have been BAPTIZED with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and
gave himself for me.” And let us read Romans 6:3, baptized into Christ’s BAPTISM (Luke
12:50).

When is the believer crucified with Christ? Of course, the moment he receives Christ and
Christ’s BAPTISM on the cross. According to Ephesians 2:5 and 6, what takes place at the very
same moment? “Even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, (by
grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places
in Christ Jesus.” Believers pass out of death into life when they believe unto the saving of the
soul. (John 5:24, Hebrews 10:39).


Yes, all by grace, the believer is crucified with Christ, baptized into the death
(BAPTISM) of Christ, made alive with Christ, raised up with Christ. All of this takes place at the
very same moment. When should that believer be buried? Should that believer be buried,
between his death and resurrection, or after his resurrection? It is too late to bury a man after he
has been raised from the dead; when he is “alive from the dead.” (Romans 6:13). On the other
hand, how can you get a burial in water between death and resurrection, when death and
resurrection take place at the same instant? Therefore, death, burial, and resurrection are linked
together in an instantaneous Divine work. This explains the “therefore” in Romans 6:4:
“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from
the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” A believer
baptized into death and raised is of course buried by baptism the moment he believes and dies
unto sin.

It is impossible to squeeze a watery burial in between being baptized into Christ’s death
(BAPTISM) and being raised to walk in newness of life.

The twelve apostles were not baptized into the death of Christ when they received John’s
water baptism unto repentance for the remission of sins. (Luke 3:3; Luke 18:31 to 34; John
20:9.)

The verses prove that they were not buried in water as a witness that they had received the
Holy Spirit and had been baptized into the Body of Christ. (I Corinthians 12:13) They received
their water baptism several years before they received Holy Spirit baptism, some years before
anyone was baptized into the Body of Christ.

I'll stop right here--

 

[Seabass]

Should I listen to you-or the Scriptures?

THE OLD MAN DEAD AND BURIED.
“HOW SHALL WE THAT ARE DEAD TO SIN, LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN? KNOW YE NOT, THAT SO MANY OF US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? THEREFORE WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: THAT LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, EVEN SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.” Romans 6:2 to 4.

From these verses, Romans 6:2 to 4, certain immersionists teach that water baptism should be a burial under water (although they admit that Christ was buried above the ground). According to Romans 6:6, the believer’s old man was crucified when Christ received His death baptism. Luke 12:47 to 51. To witness to the world that his old man was crucified, the believer should be immersed and thereby show that he has also been buried.

It is a known fact that nothing will arouse the immersionists’ old man more than to question his peculiar theory of a watery grave, which was his witness that his old man was dead. Every believer is dead to sin and raised to walk in newness of life and seated in the heavenlies With Christ the moment he receives Christ in salvation, without water baptism of any kind. How can he be dead and raised without being buried? The baptism into death and the burial baptism of Romans 6:2 to 4 is both meritorious and efficacious and produces the change in the believer. If it is water, then water is essential to salvation. Nearly all immersionists, who read water into Romans 6, become religious judges, judging saved Presbyterians, saved Lutherans and all other believers who repudiate their fanciful interpretation and reject their water theory. Every sprinkled saved Lutheran, Presbyterian and Methodist has been buried by baptism with Christ. Colossians 2:12. To read “water” into Colossians 2:12 is unsound exegesis.

HOUSEHOLD IMMERSIONISTS.
“MOREOVER, BRETHREN, I WOULD NOT THAT YE SHOULD BE IGNORANT, HOW THAT ALL OUR FATHERS WERE UNDER THE CLOUD, AND ALL PASSED THROUGH THE SEA; AND WERE ALL BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES IN THE CLOUD AND IN THE SEA.” I Corinthians 10:1 and 2.

“NOW THESE THINGS WERE OUR EXAMPLES, TO THE INTENT WE SHOULD NOT LUST AFTER EVIL THINGS AS THEY ALSO LUSTED. I Corinthians 10:6.

Undoubtedly there were thousands of little children who crossed the Red Sea with their parents, about 1492 B.C. Read Exodus 14:29: “The children of Israel walked upon DRY land in the midst of the sea”. These household immersionists should drain the water out of their baptisteries. Here then we have another fanciful theory; and that is, that believers’ babies should be immersed because of I Corinthians 10:6, quoted above. But the “wherefore” of I Corinthians 10:12 is the key to the argument.

The children of Israel were baptized unto Moses by two great miracles, but in spite of other supernatural Divine tokens, Israel yielded to temptation. By the miracle of regeneration, by a Divine baptism not made with hands, we were joined to Christ. We should be careful about stumbling, remembering the experience of Israel in the wilderness. Some religious leader started this water theory and some splendid servants of the Lord followed their teaching; and thus another tradition; and little infants are immersed in bath tubs.

It is needless to say that these household immersionists are “water heretics” in the judgment of other immersionists who contend for “believer’s” baptism. These two opposing factions have brought much grief into the ranks of the Plymouth Brethren, who are strong on the water. Both factions believe that the Body of Christ began on the day of Pentecost; but they offer no explanation as to why they do not preach the water message and practice the order of Acts 2:38, Acts 8:5 to 15 and Acts 19:1 to 7. But all must acknowledge that during the “Acts” period households received water baptism. Acts 10:48 and Acts 11:14, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, I Corinthians 1:16. We may argue until we leave this world and dogmatically and Pharisaically contend for our water theories; but we cannot Scripturally prove that there were not some small children in some of those households. Neither can we prove by one single Scripture that sprinkling took the place of circumcision.

Thus we learn that all baptism ceremonies have been adopted, not by careful study of the Scriptures, but by the traditions of church fathers.

In the midst of such confusion, and with all the “big” Bible-teachers in disagreement, I am more and more inclined to believe that we are taught, by Ephesians 4:3 to 7 and Ephesians 3:8 and 9, that water has no place in the dispensation of the mystery;” only the one Divine baptism.

Christ was buried, interred or entombed, immersed in a tomb else the Bible lies. Baptized is a burial per Rom 6. One cannot be resurrected - raised up from a burial if he was never buried.

2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Since there is but one like manner way for all to be saved rthen all must obey the gospel of Christ else be in flaming fire. This is true with Cornelius. Therefore his pbeying the command to being water baptized is HOW he obeyed the gospel. The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). Since one must obey the gospel and the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ how does one obey this? The Bible tells us in ROm 6 a Christian is one who has died to sin, sho no longer livis in some therefore in obeying the gospel one must die to sin, the old man of sin DIES, he is "Buried" in a watery grave from which he is resurrected "raised up from" to then walk in newness of life. There is no death burial or resurrection associated with any "spirit baptism" or saying a "sinner's prayer" or to simple beleif onlyism in a mental assent of them simply acknowledging facts apart from doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21) in submitting to the command to being water baptized (Acts 2:38 cf Acts 10:47-48).

 

[Johann]

Christ was buried, interred or entombed, immersed in a tomb else the Bible lies. Baptized is a burial per Rom 6. One cannot be resurrected - raised up from a burial if he was never buried.

2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Since there is but one like manner way for all to be saved rthen all must obey the gospel of Christ else be in flaming fire. This is true with Cornelius. Therefore his pbeying the command to being water baptized is HOW he obeyed the gospel. The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). Since one must obey the gospel and the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ how does one obey this? The Bible tells us in ROm 6 a Christian is one who has died to sin, sho no longer livis in some therefore in obeying the gospel one must die to sin, the old man of sin DIES, he is "Buried" in a watery grave from which he is resurrected "raised up from" to then walk in newness of life. There is no death burial or resurrection associated with any "spirit baptism" or saying a "sinner's prayer" or to simple beleif onlyism in a mental assent of them simply acknowledging facts apart from doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21) in submitting to the command to being water baptized (Acts 2:38 cf Acts 10:47-48).

Already explained and you missed it-some don't read.

A SIMPLE MESSAGE ON BAPTISM
Judging from the present-day controversy about water baptism it would seem that it is not possible to write a simple message on the subject. Most assuredly it requires more than a superficial study of the Scriptures to produce a strong conviction in the matter, based upon an intelligent understanding of the different verses in the Bible relating to the subject, instead of a bitter prejudice produced by a misunderstanding of all these Scriptures. With most Christians baptism is a habit rather than an intelligent act of obedience given to members of the Body of Christ.

Among the most spiritual of God’s people, including the most competent and fruitful preachers and teachers, there is much difference of opinion as to what the Bible teaches concerning water baptism. But how many of them, or rather, how few of them, have opened the Book with unprejudiced minds and unafraid hearts to search diligently and honestly for the truth, willing to accept and propagate what they find even though it is contrary to all of the traditions of church fathers and church creeds! It is no coward’s nor compromiser’s task to proclaim a message that is not in agreement with Christendom’s creeds.

But can the honest searcher of the Word of God answer the question, “to be or not to be baptized?” If he decides to be, can he say, “I have decided to be, because of a certain chapter or verse in the Book which gives instructions to members of the Body of Christ?” Most certainly not.

There are living today more than 200 million persons who have been baptized with water. With the great majority of them it was a case of involuntary baptism. Of the number of those who were baptized in infancy and have reached the age to render a decision, more than fifty per cent of them have approved the motive, the religious belief and act of the parent, guardian, priest, or preacher responsible for the religious ceremony or church ordinance, although they are by no means agreed as to the spiritual benefits derived therefrom. Certainly with none of them was it a case of the answer of a good conscience toward God. I Peter 3:21. The answer was by proxy.

The mode, formula and meaning of infant baptism vary with different church creeds and programs. In some cases the child is immersed to comply with the example of I Corinthians 10:1 to 13. In some cases the made is pouring. In most cases infant baptism is by sprinkling. With the Roman Catholics the ceremony by the priest is with water that has been blessed and is a water ceremony to remove original sin. With other denominations sprinkling is the seal of the New Covenant, taking the place of circumcision which was the seal of the Old Covenant. In such cases it is required that the parents of the infant be professing Christians.

In other denominations the sprinkling is the manner in which. the parents dedicate the child to the Lord. Many teach that the child presented by believing parents, by the act of baptism, then and there becomes a Christian and a member of the Church of Christ. I heard a preacher of one of the leading socalled Protestant denominations say, “most of our people become Christians by accident, being presented for baptism in infancy.”

It has been argued by many that the Greek word “baptizo” means “immerse”, but this can not be verified by the Holy Scriptures. The word, in noun form, is used in Hebrews 9:10, translated “washings”. Israel’s ceremonial washings were sprinklings, pourings, as well as dippings.

From four Scriptures the immersionists reason that Scriptural baptism must have been by immersion. Mark 1:9 and 10. John 3:23, Acts 8:38 and 39, Romans 6:4. In defense, or support, of infant baptism, the following Scriptures concerning the baptism of households are used: Acts 11:14 and 10:18; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:31 to 33; I Corinthians 1:16; I Corinthians 7:14; I Corinthians 10:2 and 11.

Those who refute the teaching and practice of household baptism, including infants, quote Mark 16:16, “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Acts 8:12, “when they believed they were baptized, both men and women”. Acts 18:8, “many of the Corinthians hearing believed and were baptized.”

One of the leading authorities on the subject of baptism, although he teaches infant baptism by sprinkling, acknowledges in his printed message on the subject, that he cannot prove this doctrine by any clear statement in the Bible. His claim is that the practice is taught by implication or inference.

Others who teach water baptism for believers in the Body of Christ with any other significance need not ridicule this theologian’s “implication” or “inference” doctrine; for they employ precisely the same method, regardless of their interpretation as to the formula, mode and meaning of their water ceremony. It is all by implication or inference.

As we look into the different interpretations of evangelical Christians who teach and practice water baptism, we must conclude that if any one of them is the correct Scriptural interpretation, some of the others are unscriptural theories. If the watery grave is Scriptural, the sprinkling seal is absurd.

But remember, hundreds of thousands of real Christians have believed each and every one of the following interpretations:

1. The seal of the New Covenant as circumcision was of the Old Covenant.

2. Baptismal regeneration, or unto repentance for the remission of sins for the reception of the Holy Spirit.

3. An outward symbol of an inward work of grace.

4. A witness of the believer’s salvation to the world.

5. A door of entrance into the Church.

6. A watery burial to acknowledge identification with Christ in death, burial and resurrection.

Five out of the six interpretations must be supported by implication or inference and by the creeds and practices of certain denominations which were organized centuries after the death of the apostles of Christ. There is not one verse to prove that water baptism was received by the believer as a witness to the world that he had become a member of the Body of Christ.

The interpretation of water baptism unto repentance for the remission of sins, is supported by Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:3; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12 to 16; Acts 19:3 to 7. This baptism began with the ministry of John the Baptist: Hear his own words: John 1:31:

“AND I KNEW HIM NOT: BUT THAT HE SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST TO ISRAEL, THEREFORE AM I COME BAPTIZING WITH WATER.”

There was one baptism for God’s people while Christ was on earth. Christ’s baptism unto death took place on the cross. Luke 12:47 to 52. After the close of the Book of Acts, the statement in Ephesians 4:5, is “one baptism”. Baptism was not something new with Israel. Hebrews 9:10. But the baptism committed to John had a special significance. There were three baptisms in the “Acts” period, “water baptism”, “Holy Spirit baptism”, and “death baptism”. Acts 1:5; Acts 11:14 and 15; I Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Acts 19:2 to 7 and Romans 8:3.

When the twelve apostles were baptized, many months before Christ’s baptism unto death, before His resurrection, the Twelve knew not what the rising from the dead meant and knew nothing concerning Christ’s death baptism. Matthew 16:21 to 23; Mark 9:10; Luke 9:44 and 45; Luke 18:31 to 34; John 20:9.

Therefore we observe that the Twelve were certainly not baptized with water as an indication or acknowledgment that they had been buried with Christ by baptism. And certainly not to indicate that they had joined the Church, which is His Body. That Church was not when they were baptized. The Twelve never received the second water baptism after Christ’s death baptism.

Water baptism is called by different names “a kingdom ordinance,” “a church ordinance,” “New Testament baptism”, “kingdom baptism”, “Christian baptism”. But all of these names have been suggested by men: they are not found in the Bible.

All students of the Word of God are greed that the baptism of I Corinthians 12:13 is not water baptism.

I Corinthians 12:13:

“FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT.”

“Baptized in One Spirit into One Body.” In Ephesians 4:4 to 6 there is mention of one Body, one Spirit, one Baptism. Jews and Greeks were not baptized in one Spirit into one Body at the time John Baptist was baptizing with water that Christ might be made manifest to Israel; at the time the Twelve were baptized with water.

It is one thing for Israel to have water baptism to have their Messiah manifested to them: it is quite a different thing for Israelites and Gentiles to be united in One Body by Holy Spirit baptism. John’s water baptism was in connection with Christ’s proclamation of the kingdom to Israel.

Therefore there is Scriptural authority for “kingdom baptism”. But “Christian baptism” is an indefinite, uncertain expression; an expression from the pen of theologians but not found in the Bible: Some differentiate between kingdom water baptism while Christ was on earth, and what they call Christian water baptism after the Spirit came from heaven. But they cannot Scripturally prove the two different water baptisms by the experience of Twelve. According to this discrimination the Twelve never received Christian baptism; only Israelitish kingdom baptism.

Right-I'll stop right here.

 

[Johann]

Christ was buried, interred or entombed, immersed in a tomb else the Bible lies. Baptized is a burial per Rom 6. One cannot be resurrected - raised up from a burial if he was never buried.

2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Since there is but one like manner way for all to be saved rthen all must obey the gospel of Christ else be in flaming fire. This is true with Cornelius. Therefore his pbeying the command to being water baptized is HOW he obeyed the gospel. The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). Since one must obey the gospel and the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ how does one obey this? The Bible tells us in ROm 6 a Christian is one who has died to sin, sho no longer livis in some therefore in obeying the gospel one must die to sin, the old man of sin DIES, he is "Buried" in a watery grave from which he is resurrected "raised up from" to then walk in newness of life. There is no death burial or resurrection associated with any "spirit baptism" or saying a "sinner's prayer" or to simple beleif onlyism in a mental assent of them simply acknowledging facts apart from doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21) in submitting to the command to being water baptized (Acts 2:38 cf Acts 10:47-48).

Who is philosophizing now @Seabass?
Hear me out-if your conscience witness that you should be water baptized-do so.

 

[Fred]

1 Cor 15 those Corinthians were involved in sinful error having been deceived. They are being admonished, commanded by Paul not to keep on (present tense) being deceived, not keep on being in sin. This is not a command for them to be perfectly sinless for they could not. God never requires of us perfect sinlessness but a simple faithful obedience and God offers the avenue of repentance to the Christian when he fails and comes short of God's will.

Then you are in denial that to not sin is a command. See also 1 John 2:1.

Are you suggesting God requires perfectly sinlessness

No.

 

[Johann]

If you did not speak in tongues then you were not baptized with the HS as the Gentiles.

This is the reason why I don't want to engage in conversation re baptism with you-anyone NOT water baptized is NOT saved-according to you-and not what stands written.
You want to make it an Imperative when there is none.
Cheers.

 

[Complete]

This is the reason why I don't want to engage in conversation re baptism with you-anyone NOT water baptized is NOT saved-according to you-and not what stands written.
You want to make it an Imperative when there is none.
Cheers.

Hi @Johann,

You have witnessed to the truth, as it is written in the word of God, you can do no more.

I have been blessed as a consequence of reading through your informative responses (replies #86, 89, 90 & 92), which took time and effort on your part: and will (hopefully) print them off to study again at my leisure, and share when I have opportunity.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Johann]

Hi @Johann,

You have witnessed to the truth, as it is written in the word of God, you can do no more.

I have been blessed as a consequence of reading through your informative responses (replies #86, 89, 90 & 92), which took time and effort on your part: and will (hopefully) print them off to study again at my leisure, and share when I have opportunity.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

You are a blessing Chris-stay strong in Christ Jesus.
Yours in Christ.
Johann.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Rom 9:27 Yeshayah proclaims concerning Yisroel, "Even if the number of the Bnei Yisroel are as the sand of the sea, only the She'erit (Remnant) will return (be saved)-

Isa 10:22 For though thy people Yisroel be like the chol hayam, only a remnant of them shall return; destruction is decreed, overwhelming tzedakah.

Isa 10:22 ForH3588 Conj kî כִּ֣י thoughH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ beH1961 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yih·yeh יִהְיֶ֞ה your peopleH5971 N-msc+2ms ‘am·mə·ḵā עַמְּךָ֤ IsraelH3478 N-proper-ms yiś·rā·’êl יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ as the sandH2344 Prep-k+N-msc kə·ḥō·wl כְּח֣וֹל of the sea,H3220 Art+N-ms hay·yām הַיָּ֔ם a remnantH7605 N-ms šə·’ār שְׁאָ֖ר will return;H7725 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms

LXX related word(s)
G2947 st. kulio
G4198 st. poreuo
G430 st. an echo
G305 ana baino
G344 ana kampto
G565 ap erchomai
G630 apo luo
G1257 dia leipo
G1459 eg kata leipo
G1653 eleeo
G1880 ep an erchomai
G1904 ep erchomai
G1914 epi blepo
G1995 epi strophe
G2043 ereido
G2064 erchomai
G2240 heko
G2597 kata baino
G3049 logizomai
G3328 meta ballo
G3346 meta tithemi
G3729 hormao
G3825 palin
G3854 par ginomai
G3973 pauo
G4334 pros erchomai
G4369 pros tithemi
G4982 sozo
G611 st. apo krino
G591 apo didomi
G2730 katoikizo
G471 st. ant eipon
G312 an aggello
G321 an ago
G399 an phero
G468 ant apo doma
G496 anti pipto
G518 ap aggello
G520 ap ago
G612 apo krisis
G649 apo stello
G659 apo tithemi
G1209 dechomai
G1259 di allasso
G1521 eis ago
G1533 eis phero
G1821 ex apo stello
G1911 epi ballo
G2018 epi phero
G2186 eph istemi
G2524 kath iemi
G2698 kata tithemi
G2967 koluo
G3340 meta noeo
G3825 palin
G4060 peri tithemi
G4317 pros ago
G4374 pros phero
G5021 tasso
G5342 phero
G5623 opheleo
G467 ant apo didomi
G114 atheteo
G635 apo planao
G3627 oikteiro
G4863 sun ago
G868 aph istemi
G1325 didomi
G1863 ep ago
G2525 kath istemi
G2664 kata pauo
G4762 strepho
G600 apo kath istemi
G1994 epi strepho
G654 apo strepho
G390 ana strepho
G5290 hupo strepho

“For though thy population, O Israel, should be as the sand of the sea, (only) a remnant in it shall turn (and be saved).” (Cf. Hos_1:10; Gen_22:17.)

The third important use of shub in the Qal, and theologically the most crucial, is in passages dealing with the covenant community's return to God (in the sense of repentance), or turning away from evil (in the sense of renouncing and disowning sin), or turning away from God (in the sense of becoming apostate).

In such contexts shub in the Qal is used 129 times. By contrast, in the Hiphil shub is used only eleven times when discussing the divine-human relationship. "turn back (Qal imperative) and 'let yourself be turned kom your idols' (Hiphil) from your idols" (Eze_14:6).

Taking all stems into consideration, Holladay (p. 117) concludes that there are a total of 164 uses of shub in a covenantal context. The majority of them, as one might expect, are to be found in the classical literary prophets 113 times, with Jeremiah leading the way (forty-eight times). By way of contrast with Jeremiah, the covenantal usage of shub is found only six times in the first thirty-nine chapters of Isaiah (maybe only five if we read Isa_30:15 not, " in returning (to God) and re rest shall you be saved," but "in sitting still yashab, i.e. abstention from foreign alliances, resting shall you be saved")

You want me to proceed?

Yup-"Nuff zed"

The Sept. is not inspired. Can't use it.

 

[Seabass]

Already explained and you missed it-some don't read.

1) What you posted did not address what I posted in my posts # 87 or 88

2) You replied to my posts # 87 and 88 within a few minutes with very lengthy posts. It is apparent you are not reading my posts for your reply did not address the issues I posted. It is also evident you are just copying and pasting things in response to my posts as can been seen from your post # 92 that was copied then pasted on this forum most likely from this link below for your post exactly matches this link word for word:

To Be Or Not To Be Baptized

A SIMPLE MESSAGE ON BAPTISM Judging from the present-day controversy about water baptism it would seem that it is not possible to write a simple message on the subject. Most assuredly it requires more than a superficial study of the Scriptures to produce a strong conviction in the matter, based upo

bereanbiblesociety.org

Your post #90 exactly matches word for word this link:

https://doctrine.org/ohair/THIRD%20BAPTISM%20OF%20THE%20LORD%20JESUS%20CHRIST,%20THE.pdf

AGAIN, what you copied and pasted did not address the issues I posted about.

3) you most likely spent less than a minute of your time copying and pasting something here that;

a) did not even address the issues I raised.
b) you just copied and pasted links assuming everything in those links are all factual without given any proof that it is all gospel fact.
c) you seem to expect me to spend hours and hours of my time responding to what you spent less than a minute copying and pasting.

Seabass doesn't play that game.


"I'll stop right here...." as you say.

 

[Seabass]

This is the reason why I don't want to engage in conversation re baptism with you-anyone NOT water baptized is NOT saved-according to you-and not what stands written.
You want to make it an Imperative when there is none.
Cheers.

So says Mr Copy and Paste who did not address my issues that I raised in post 87 or 88..