The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13

[dwight92070]

You missed the whole point - nothing new there. If water baptism is required for salvation, then God would have made sure that He would warn us of that fact in each and every one of the 213 verses that mentions salvation, but there's no mention of water baptism. Why would He warn us? Because if we didn't believe we are saved at the time of our baptism, we would be lost forever, according to your false doctrine. This is yet another proof of your legalistic, false doctrine. Case closed.

None of the verses you reference tell us that water baptism is required to be saved:
John 3:5 doesn't even mention water baptism No Proof There. (NPT)
1 Peter 3:21 says that water baptism is a figure of salvation, not salvation itself. NPT
Acts 2:38 says that it is our repentance that brings remission of sins, not baptism - did you notice he mentions repentance BEFORE baptism? NPT
Romans 6:3 is referring to salvation, just as 1 Cor.12:13 does - it's the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into the body of Christ NPT
Romans 6:4-7 does refer to water baptism AFTER one is saved (verse 3). Verse 5 makes it clear that water baptism is a physical "likeness" of His death, burial, and resurrection, NOT the actual spiritual death, burial, and resurrection, that miraculously occurs at salvation. NPT
Col. 2:11-12 The circumcision of Christ is our salvation, done without human hands - so this cannot refer to water baptism, done WITH human hands. That miracle occurs BEFORE baptism is mentioned. Water baptism is mentioned in verse 12. In that verse it is past tense, but so is verse 12. Paul is saying that BOTH salvation and water baptism had already occurred with the Colossians before he even wrote this. But they always occur in the same order in the Bible - salvation first, then water baptism afterwards. NPT
Galatians 3:26-27 No mention of water baptism here. This is the same baptism that's mentioned in 1 Cor.12:13, which is being baptized into the body of Christ or we could say baptized into Christ. NPT
Eph.5:26 It's just silly to think that this refers to water baptism. It's obvious that "having cleansed her with the washing of water with the word" defines itself. Christ spiritually cleanses us and washes us with the word, even as He said when he washed Peter's feet: "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." He's referring to actually washing Peter's feet there, but it's obvious His meaning is spiritual cleansing, as Peter walks through his life. NPT

So NONE of these verses prove your point. Case Closed. There are NO verses in the Bible that prove your point. NPT

 

[TomL]

"Spirit baptism" happens during water baptism, as is stated in 1 Pet 3:21, and as is indicated in Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14.

Not in Acts chapter 8, 10 or 19

There is no water in Romans 6 or Col 2:11-14

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is indeed only one baptism, and it requires water (1 Pet 3:21).

Um no. There are many baptism. including the baptism of the HS and baptism of Fire.

And it is an action that man (the teacher) must do (Matt 28:19), and man (the student) must receive (Acts 2:38). And it cannot be done sitting in a house (Acts 22:16).

Then your tryign to merit salvation.

do everyone here a favor and stop denying it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So it could be Kool Aid and it wouldn't matter?

I literally have no idea what your saying.

I think I will move on from this conversation. If you have no desire to even try to understand what I originally said. then this is useless.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You missed the whole point - nothing new there. If water baptism is required for salvation, then God would have made sure that He would warn us of that fact in each and every one of the 213 verses that mentions salvation, but there's no mention of water baptism. Why would He warn us? Because if we didn't believe we are saved at the time of our baptism, we would be lost forever, according to your false doctrine. This is yet another proof of your legalistic, false doctrine. Case closed.

None of the verses you reference tell us that water baptism is required to be saved:
John 3:5 doesn't even mention water baptism No Proof There. (NPT)
1 Peter 3:21 says that water baptism is a figure of salvation, not salvation itself. NPT
Acts 2:38 says that it is our repentance that brings remission of sins, not baptism - did you notice he mentions repentance BEFORE baptism? NPT
Romans 6:3 is referring to salvation, just as 1 Cor.12:13 does - it's the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into the body of Christ NPT
Romans 6:4-7 does refer to water baptism AFTER one is saved (verse 3). Verse 5 makes it clear that water baptism is a physical "likeness" of His death, burial, and resurrection, NOT the actual spiritual death, burial, and resurrection, that miraculously occurs at salvation. NPT
Col. 2:11-12 The circumcision of Christ is our salvation, done without human hands - so this cannot refer to water baptism, done WITH human hands. That miracle occurs BEFORE baptism is mentioned. Water baptism is mentioned in verse 12. In that verse it is past tense, but so is verse 12. Paul is saying that BOTH salvation and water baptism had already occurred with the Colossians before he even wrote this. But they always occur in the same order in the Bible - salvation first, then water baptism afterwards. NPT
Galatians 3:26-27 No mention of water baptism here. This is the same baptism that's mentioned in 1 Cor.12:13, which is being baptized into the body of Christ or we could say baptized into Christ. NPT
Eph.5:26 It's just silly to think that this refers to water baptism. It's obvious that "having cleansed her with the washing of water with the word" defines itself. Christ spiritually cleanses us and washes us with the word, even as He said when he washed Peter's feet: "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." He's referring to actually washing Peter's feet there, but it's obvious His meaning is spiritual cleansing, as Peter walks through his life. NPT

So NONE of these verses prove your point. Case Closed. There are NO verses in the Bible that prove your point. NPT

Also

Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

If baptism was required. It would have been all the way back to adam.

The gospel has never changed

Faith in God is the only means of salvation, period

 

[MTMattie]

That is mistranslated. The proper translation is substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is something you can see and feel. It is not just a feeling in your head/heart.

If you don't act on what you think in your head/heart, then you don't really trust or have reliance on Him.

Thank God I am not among them, but you seem to be.

I see you prefer Jimmy's translation. or stuck in a Catholic translation. I prefer the Aramaic (below) myself... or the Peshitta ... Now faith is the conviction concerning those things that are in hope, as if it were these things in action, and the revelation of those things that are unseen; or the Weymouth (below) ( When I cannot get a good copy of the Ethheopian) but also love BibliaTodo The Passion Translation 1 Now faith brings our hopes into reality and becomes the foundation needed to acquire the things we long for. It is all the evidence required to prove what is still unseen.

As you will see below... there is no one verse that is more correct then another.....

New International Version
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

New Living Translation
Faith shows the reality of what we hope for; it is the evidence of things we cannot see.

English Standard Version
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Berean Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Berean Literal Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not being seen.

King James Bible
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

New King James Version
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the certainty of things hoped for, a proof of things not seen.

NASB 1995
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

NASB 1977
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Legacy Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Amplified Bible
Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].

Christian Standard Bible
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

American Standard Version
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

Contemporary English Version
Faith makes us sure of what we hope for and gives us proof of what we cannot see.

English Revised Version
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the proving of things not seen.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.

Good News Translation
To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.

International Standard Version
Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.

Majority Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

NET Bible
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

New Heart English Bible
Now faith is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.

Webster's Bible Translation
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Weymouth New Testament
Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.

World English Bible
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
Now faith is [the] substance of things hoped for, [the] proof of matters not being seen,

Berean Literal Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not being seen.

Young's Literal Translation
And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

Smith's Literal Translation
And faith is the foundation of things hoped for, the proof of things not seen.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not apparent.

New American Bible
Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.

New Revised Standard Version
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, just as it was the substance of things which have come to pass; and it is the evidence of things not seen,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Now faith is the conviction concerning those things that are in hope, as if it were these things in action, and the revelation of those things that are unseen;
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
Now, faith is a sure confidence with respect to things hoped for, a firm persuasion with respect to things not seen:

Godbey New Testament
But faith is the confidence of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Haweis New Testament
NOW faith is the realizing confidence of the things hoped for, and the demonstration of things unseen:

Mace New Testament
Now faith is the foundation of our hopes of happiness, and the persuasion we have about things not evident to our senses.

Weymouth New Testament
Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.

Worrell New Testament
Now faith is an assurance of things hoped for, a sure persuasion of things not seen;

Worsley New Testament
Now faith is the confident expectation of things hoped for, and a conviction of things not seen:

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is the substance that can be seen and felt that is the evidence of things that cannot be seen or felt.

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. By defining faith as assurance and conviction, the writer of Hebrews indicates that Biblical faith is not a vague hope in wishful thinking. Instead, faith is a settled confidence that something in the future that is not yet seen but has been promised by God will actually come to pass. Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]. AMP

This is true, but when does Scripture say that Faith (alive and active) must be demonstrated? BEFORE salvation is received (Eph 2:8-9), because faith is the conduit through which salvation is delivered from God to man.

That is not what Ephesians 2:8,9 says. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Not by works. Faith becomes alive the moment we are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:5-8) We are then created in Christ Jesus unto good works and these good works/actions follow faith and salvation. (Ephesians 2:10) You still have the cart before the horse.

"Over"confidently? No.
Confidently? Absolutely!

I do indeed.

So, you are saying that you have absolute assurance of salvation? Based on what? Works? (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6) Your own righteousness? (Luke 18:9) That is overconfidence. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. Believing on the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13) is confidence, absolutely. Jesus Christ is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Trust in Him alone.

The Gospel is indeed the good news of Jesus' perfect life, death, burial, and resurrection which pays the price for my sin and allows me to be reunited to God.
In order to receive the benefit of His sacrifice, we must have faith in Him. This means that we must fully trust Him to do what He says He will do. What did He say He would do?

We must have faith in Him (and not faith in self) to receive the benefit of His sacrifice. Jesus clearly stated what He would do for believers in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) I believe in Him for salvation and fully trust Him to do what He says He will do.

He said that He would forgive us IF we repent of our sins (Acts 3:19). So if we trust Him (have faith in Him) then we will repent of our sins.

How do you define repent of our sins? Moral self-reformation and/or completely stop sinning 100% of the time? When we repent unto salvation, we change our mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Repentance 'precedes' saving belief/faith (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) yet you reverse the scriptural order of repent believe/faith. Before changing our mind and placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation we acknowledge that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves (Romans 3:23; 6:23) and we confess our sins (1 John 1:8) in contrast with saying we have no sin (1 John 1:8) or have not sinned. (1 John 1:10)

He said that He would save us if we publicly and verbally confess Him as our Lord (Rom 10:9-10). So if we trust Him (have faith in Him) then we will confess Jesus as our Lord.

Your faith is in the confession itself as a work for salvation rather than Who you are confessing. The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together. (Romans 10:8) There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3) This confession is a confirmation of faith which is why we will be saved if we confess.

I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, (also see Romans 4:5) but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" or reciting those words from a check list of steps as a work for salvation not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

He said that He would save us if we submit to baptism (Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, among others).

That is your eisegesis. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

John 3:5 doesn't mention baptism, but Jesus has plenty to say about living water in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) in connection with the Holy Spirit and eternal life. This water reaches the heart. The second clause of Mark 16:16 clarifies the first with but he who does not believe will be condemned. Nowhere does the Bible say water baptized or condemned. Also, Jesus connects receiving eternal life with believing apart from water baptism in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) *Hermeneutics.

So if we trust Him (have faith in Him) then we will submit to being baptized.

That's faith in baptism and not faith in Him. Whatever you are trusting in to save you that's what you have placed your faith in for salvation. For me my faith is in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. For you it's water baptism + 3 other steps which all culminate in works salvation off your 4 step check list. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned. Notice this belief is not in yourself, getting water baptized or any other type of work. Notice that this belief in not in Jesus Christ + something else, otherwise this belief would not be IN HIM. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

We do all of this trusting that He will do what He said and forgive/save us and make us part of His family (Gal 3:26-27).

We are all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ and not faith + baptism. We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ and in what sense would we be water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were baptized into Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense.

And He said that if we do not confess Him (if we deny Him, there are only these two options: confess Him or deny Him), then He will deny us before the Father.

Only genuine believers confess Him from divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) Unbelievers deny Him and make believers give mere "lip service" confession (Matthew 7:22-23) which in either case is still denying Him in unbelief, regardless of confessing Him in vain.

If we do not repent, then He will not forgive us.

If we don't repent (change our mind) then we will not believe in Him/place our faith in Him for salvation in order to be forgiven. (Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; 20:21; 26:18)

And if we are not baptized, then we never are washed clean, we are never adopted into His family, and He does not know us.

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality. In regard to being washed clean it takes the word, living water and the blood of Christ. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5) Water baptism can only remove dirt from the flesh.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry there are many things that are an act of faith

You simply redefine faith to suit your theology while ignoring what you cannot pigeonhole into your theology

BTW it is the Holy Spirit who seals us in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB95) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB95) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

When does Eph 1:13 say we are sealed? After we exhibit our faith. When does 1 Cor 12:13 say we are made part of the one body? When we are baptized into it.

I don't have to ignore any of Scripture, because it all says the same thing.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nonsense. Genealogies are through the mother. Christ was of the seed of Mary. Not Joseph. Try again.

There are two genealogies of Jesus in Scripture, one of Him through Mary, and the other of Him through Joseph.

But that is beside the point. The point is, that among the ancient Israelites, Jewishness was based on paternity. It is only a modern Jews who accept maternity as a basis for Jewishness.

What makes it "certain". Please do tell.

Philippi was a Greek/Gentile city. It was not the Jews who arrested Paul, but the city rulers, and they gave Paul over to the city jailer, also a Gentile.

You're claiming what God gave to other men. You theology is a "name it claim it" theology. I don't baptize anyone because I wasn't sent to baptize.

Were you sent to baptize? Speak clearly and forcefully. Own it.

If you are a follower of Christ then you were sent to baptize when the harvest is ready.

Do you remember what Naaman said? I don't think you do. Naaman had to go to Jordan to get healing. He could wash anywhere else.

You're not paying attention to what has been written. Why did Naaman have to go to Jordan? Why wasn't it just any water?

Keep trying.

He had to go to Jordan because that was where the prophet, having been instructed by God, told him to go.

 

[Doug Brents]

Not in Acts chapter 8, 10 or 19

You think that the miraculous empowerment of the Holy Spirit is "Spirit baptism", but it is not. "Spirit baptism" is the indwelling of the Spirit, and that occurs when we are brought into the family of God when we are baptized in water. In Acts 19, we see this clearly. When the men were baptized in water, they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but then the Apostles laid hands on them and they received miraculous empowerment of the Spirit; two different functions of the Spirit.

There is no water in Romans 6 or Col 2:11-14

There is, because there is only one baptism in the NT Church, and it is the baptism in which we are saved, and it requires human action and water according to Acts 8:36, 1 Pet 3:21, Matt 28:19, John 3:5, and other passages.

 

[Doug Brents]

Um no. There are many baptism. including the baptism of the HS and baptism of Fire.

So you are saying that Eph 4:5-6 is not God's perfect Word? God lied in that passage?

Then your tryign to merit salvation.

Just because an action is required does not mean that the person doing that action is trying to merit salvation.

do everyone here a favor and stop denying it

To cease would be to do you a disservice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I literally have no idea what your saying.

I think I will move on from this conversation. If you have no desire to even try to understand what I originally said. then this is useless.

I ask "why water". Why is water used. In that context, my comments are clear. Kool Aid contains water but it contains other things.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are two genealogies of Jesus in Scripture, one of Him through Mary, and the other of Him through Joseph.

Like I don't already know the obvious....

Matthew didn't understand what he was doing. His genealogy doesn't matter.

But that is beside the point. The point is, that among the ancient Israelites, Jewishness was based on paternity. It is only a modern Jews who accept maternity as a basis for Jewishness.

Not true at all. Luke proves it. That is why God has left both in our canon so we can understand the arguments. That argument has always existed among Jews because of their sins.

If Jews hadn't of intermixed among Canaanites, then it wouldn't have been needed. The Scriptures are written to force choices. You've made the choice to accept the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration. You're not skilled enough to realize this.

Christ was promised to seed of the women. Christ is the seed of almighty God that was joined to the seed of the women. Us "men" don't often want to realize that the a women has a seed at all. You know it takes "two seeds" to form life in the womb. Christ's is the seed of almighty God.

Philippi was a Greek/Gentile city. It was not the Jews who arrested Paul, but the city rulers, and they gave Paul over to the city jailer, also a Gentile.

Go back a few verses and read a little more. Lydia lived in a Gentile city. Jews were dispersed everywhere. You need to realize that Jews were hiding in among Gentiles. Some of them didn't even know they were probably Jews. Just like the seed of Ishmael ran through the Assyrian empire. There were blessings among them all. That is why some sense of faith existed among Samarian, Assyrian, and etc. Abraham had a profound influence upon his children. All of them.

If you are a follower of Christ then you were sent to baptize when the harvest is ready..

Just don't say that and claim victory. Prove it. God hasn't sent me to baptize. If someone wanted to be baptized, and asked me to do it.... I probably would to fulfil the desires of their hope.

He had to go to Jordan because that was where the prophet, having been instructed by God, told him to go.

So that didn't matter right? Why are you ignoring this fact in an attempt to tie it falsely to baptismal regeneration?

The facts are true. Apart from using late Christian practices that include Baptismal Regeneration, there is no evidence for it. None whatsoever. It was part of the process of renewing the failed faiths of the "faithful" among society. They had a heritage that us lowly Gentiles didn't have.

Not that hasn't worked somewhat to the favor of Gentiles. It has to a degree. Innocence is innocence. Gentiles were the victims of the sins of Jews and Jews are the victims of the sins of Gentiles now.

 

[Doug Brents]

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. By defining faith as assurance and conviction, the writer of Hebrews indicates that Biblical faith is not a vague hope in wishful thinking. Instead, faith is a settled confidence that something in the future that is not yet seen but has been promised by God will actually come to pass. Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]. AMP

These translations make faith sound like a purely mental exercise. But it is not. Without action faith is dead and worthless, and cannot bring justification to anyone (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).
Faith demands that we step onto the bridge, sit in the chair, get in the wheelbarrow, sacrifice our only son, etc. If we don't act, then we really don't have faith, we really don't trust, we really don't believe.

That is not what Ephesians 2:8,9 says. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Exactly, as soon as we obey Him in faith, and do the things He said lead to receiving His gift is when we are saved. Not when we think that His Gospel is true. Not when we think that He will do what He says.

Not by works. Faith becomes alive the moment we are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:5-8)

You keep saying the right words, but by "faith" you mean "think".
When we in America say, "I believe that it will rain today", what do we mean?
We mean that we "think" that it will rain today.
But if we really have faith that it will rain today, we will take our raincoat or umbrella when we leave the house. If we don't take the raincoat or umbrella, we don't really have faith, we just have a thought.

We are then created in Christ Jesus unto good works and these good works/actions follow faith and salvation. (Ephesians 2:10) You still have the cart before the horse.

That is not what Jesus said. He said that we can only be born again through the Spirit AND water. You want to skip half of what Jesus said, but He didn't use extra words, or throw out phrases that don't mean anything. Everything He said has a purpose and a power, but you are missing half of it, which results in you getting none of it.

So, you are saying that you have absolute assurance of salvation? Based on what? Works? (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6) Your own righteousness? (Luke 18:9)

Absolutely not. I have assurance because I trust that God will do what He promised. Just as Abraham trusted that even if he killed his only son, God could resurrect him, so he was willing to sacrifice his ONLY son. He had seen God's actions and trusted Him to be able to do what He said. I have seen God's faithfulness as well, and I have put my full hope, trust, and confidence in Him to do what He says He will do. But I also trust that He is a God who will not do what He says He will not do. And He has said that if I don't obey Him then I won't get what He offers. If I don't confess Him He will not confess me. If I do not repent He will not forgive me. If I do not continue to walk in His Light He will not continue to wash me clean.

That is overconfidence. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. Believing on the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13) is confidence, absolutely. Jesus Christ is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Trust in Him alone.

Is it exalting myself to submit to being washed in His blood? Is it exalting to subordinate my will below His? Is it exalting myself to claim Him as my Lord and Master, and to do what He commands instead of what I want?
I didn't think so.

How do you define repent of our sins? Moral self-reformation and/or completely stop sinning 100% of the time?

Nope, neither one of those is what repentance means.
Repentance is from the Greek word metanoia which means "a change of mind" or "a transformative change of heart".
In the Hebrew Bible, the concept is often expressed by the word shuv, meaning "to return" or "turn back".
So it is a change of mind/heart from the sinful world back to seeking God. But it is not just a one time thing. It requires continual course corrections because we are continually being pulled off course again by the world.

When we repent unto salvation, we change our mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Almost, but not quite. Repentance does not result in immediate salvation, any more than turning around after walking into a mud pit results in being clean. You may walk back out of the mud, but you are still covered in it. You must then, after you have repented (turned around and walked out of the mud), be washed and purified.

Two sides to the same coin. Repentance 'precedes' saving belief/faith (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) yet you reverse the scriptural order of repent believe/faith.

No, I do not reverse that order. Repentance MUST come before salvation, but it is part of the faith that leads to salvation; just not the only part of it.

Before changing our mind and placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation we acknowledge that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves (Romans 3:23; 6:23) and we confess our sins (1 John 1:8) in contrast with saying we have no sin (1 John 1:8) or have not sinned. (1 John 1:10)

Your faith is in the confession itself as a work for salvation rather than Who you are confessing.

Wrong again. My faith is in Jesus Christ. But I understand that He has said that IF I confess Him then He will confess me, and IF I deny Him He will deny me. And notice, there are only these two options. Either we confess Him or by default we deny Him.

The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together. (Romans 10:8)

The word of faith that we preach is in our mouth and heart together. It is not in the mouth and heart of the unsaved, because it must be put there first by the preacher and the Word of God.

There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3) This confession is a confirmation of faith which is why we will be saved if we confess.

You are saying that the Holy Spirit is limited to only operating in those who are saved. I don't think that is true. I believe He can operate in anyone, and that He works in those who are unsaved to bring them to confess Jesus. Rom 10:10 is very clear that confessing Jesus RESULTS in our receiving salvation, therefore confession MUST come before salvation is received; you cannot get the result without the things that bring about the result.

I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, (also see Romans 4:5) but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Again with this stupidity? Seriously. We have been over this many times, and I will not stoop to dealing with it again.

This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

What does it mean to have a "deep personal conviction"? What is different between that and a simple acknowledgement? It is ACTION! If you have a "deep personal conviction" then you will act on that conviction and do what the one you would call Lord commands.

That is your eisegesis. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first.

That is your eisegesis. But it is not supported by the Greek text. There is NO distinction between "repent" and "be baptized" with regard to the remission of sins. Both relate to remission of sins in the same way. The text does not say, Repent so that you can be forgiven and then be baptized because you have already been forgiven. What does it say? "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins". Now, I will grant you that "for" (eis in the Greek) could mean "because you have been". But when we look at Acts 3:19, it is clear that repentance must be done "in order to receive", which means that both "repent" and "be baptized" both relate to the forgiveness of sins as "in order to receive".

Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Again, that is you eisegesis, but not what the text says.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

And the "gift of the Holy Spirit" in both cases refers, not to the indwelling of the Spirit, but to miraculous empowerment.

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

That is, again, your personal interpretation/eisegesis, but not the true harmony of Scripture.

John 3:5 doesn't mention baptism, but Jesus has plenty to say about living water in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) in connection with the Holy Spirit and eternal life. This water reaches the heart. The second clause of Mark 16:16 clarifies the first with but he who does not believe will be condemned. Nowhere does the Bible say water baptized or condemned. Also, Jesus connects receiving eternal life with believing apart from water baptism in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) *Hermeneutics.

And again, eisegesis.

That's faith in baptism and not faith in Him. Whatever you are trusting in to save you that's what you have placed your faith in for salvation. For me my faith is in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

If that were true, then you would be doing and teaching what He teaches in His Word, not your own personal interpretation of what He says.

For you it's water baptism + 3 other steps which all culminate in works salvation off your 4 step check list. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned.

Indeed, he who has faith in Him is not condemned. What is the contrast that Paul makes in John 3:36 (I find it interesting that you always skip that verse in your lists)? "The one who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; but the one who DOES NOT OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Hmm. The opposite of "believe" is not "disbelieve", but "does not obey". Interesting. So what is the opposite of "does not obey"? That would be "obeys", right? So then "believes" is synonymous with "obeys".

 

[Doug Brents]

Like I don't already know the obvious....

Matthew didn't understand what he was doing. His genealogy doesn't matter.

I see. And Matthew was the author of the Gospel with his name on it? I thought all Scripture was inspired by God. That makes God the author, not Matthew. And with God as the author, then nothing in Matthew's Gospel is in error or "doesn't matter".

Not true at all. Luke proves it. That is why God has left both in our canon so we can understand the arguments. That argument has always existed among Jews because of their sins.

If Jews hadn't of intermixed among Canaanites, then it wouldn't have been needed. The Scriptures are written to force choices. You've made the choice to accept the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration. You're not skilled enough to realize this.

Christ was promised to seed of the women. Christ is the seed of almighty God that was joined to the seed of the women. Us "men" don't often want to realize that the a women has a seed at all. You know it takes "two seeds" to form life in the womb. Christ's is the seed of almighty God.

Nope, I'm not skilled enough. That is why I rely on the Holy Spirit to show me the truth in His Word.

Go back a few verses and read a little more. Lydia lived in a Gentile city. Jews were dispersed everywhere.

Lydia was also not a Jew. She was a Gentile who feared God, this is the same situation that Cornelius was in; a Gentile who feared God (was proselytized).

Just don't say that and claim victory. Prove it. God hasn't sent me to baptize. If someone wanted to be baptized, and asked me to do it.... I probably would to fulfil the desires of their hope.

I am sorry that you feel God has not sent you to convert people to Him. I pray that you will feel that sending, and obey it.

So that didn't matter right? Why are you ignoring this fact in an attempt to tie it falsely to baptismal regeneration?

What didn't matter? The fact that he was sent to the Jordan? Yes it mattered. He had to go to the "dirty" river, and do something humbling (not fight a mighty battle, or conquer a massive peak). And when he did what was commanded (100% of it) he was healed. We are in the same boat (as it were).

The facts are true. Apart from using late Christian practices that include Baptismal Regeneration, there is no evidence for it. None whatsoever. It was part of the process of renewing the failed faiths of the "faithful" among society. They had a heritage that us lowly Gentiles didn't have.

Not that hasn't worked somewhat to the favor of Gentiles. It has to a degree. Innocence is innocence. Gentiles were the victims of the sins of Jews and Jews are the victims of the sins of Gentiles now.

That makes no sense.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

When does Eph 1:13 say we are sealed? After we exhibit our faith.

No, it says after we believed..

When does 1 Cor 12:13 say we are made part of the one body? When we are baptized into it.

yes. this is done by God. not a human and no water is involved.

I don't have to ignore any of Scripture, because it all says the same thing.

it does not say what you think it says

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So you are saying that Eph 4:5-6 is not God's perfect Word? God lied in that passage?

5 one Lord, JESUS

one faith, IN JESUS - I am the way the truth and the life

one baptism; Baptism of God into Christ, his death, his burial and his body

6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. The father

I have no idea what your trying to force into this passage, water is not inviolved.

Just because an action is required does not mean that the person doing that action is trying to merit salvation.

This is so far from truth it can only be believed by someone who is forcing his belief system and does nto want to see truth

If I HAVE to do a work. to get saved. I am meriting salvation by that work.

Salvation then becomes a wage, or a reward. not a gift.

To cease would be to do you a disservice.

lol..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I ask "why water". Why is water used. In that context, my comments are clear. Kool Aid contains water but it contains other things.

again, I am backing away. Has no bearing on anythign I said

 

[Doug Brents]

No, it says after we believed..

What is the Greek word from which "believed" is translated? "Pistis", which means "faith". This is not the American conception of "intellectual assent". This is the active, obedient faith spoken of in James 2:14-26, and in John 3:36.

yes. this is done by God. not a human and no water is involved.

Not according to Acts 8:36, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, and many other passages.

it does not say what you think it says

Now you sound like Inigo; "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." LOL

5 one Lord, JESUS

one faith, IN JESUS - I am the way the truth and the life

one baptism; Baptism of God into Christ, his death, his burial and his body

Which requires water and the Spirit (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36).

6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. The father

I have no idea what your trying to force into this passage, water is not inviolved.

Sure it is. There is only one baptism, and it is in that baptism that we are united with Christ and our sins are removed. And that baptism REQUIRES that water be involved, because if it is not then the three passages above are lies. If we can be reborn with just the Spirit, and not the Spirit and water, then Jesus lied to Nicodemus, Philip lied to the Eunuch, and Peter lied to all of us.

This is so far from truth it can only be believed by someone who is forcing his belief system and does nto want to see truth

If I HAVE to do a work. to get saved. I am meriting salvation by that work.

Salvation then becomes a wage, or a reward. not a gift.

Not at all. Back to the gift of the car. I buy a car, pay 100% of the cost of the car and all of the upkeep, fuel, tires, etc. to keep the car running for the rest of your life upfront, and have a dealer in our city hold the car for you. You must go to the dealer to receive the car. What part of the value of the car does you showing up cover? Did you "pay for" even the wiper blades by showing up to receive the car? NO!!!! But if you don't show up, then you don't have use of the car. And you won't have use of it until you show up. This in no way "merits" the car. You don't deserve it. You haven't earned it. According to God you deserve to be burned alive for all eternity for sinning against Him (sorry, off of the analogy). But if you do show up, then you receive the gift that I have given to you, and you get to use it forever because I have covered ALL of the cost of it.

This is what God has done for us. He has given us the gift of eternal life and forgiveness, but to receive it we must repent of our sins as Acts 3:19 says. We must confess Jesus as Lord verbally ("with the mouth") as Rom 10:9-10 says. And we must be baptized in water as Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 22:16, Acts 8:36, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, and many others state.

 

[praise_yeshua]

again, I am backing away. Has no bearing on anythign I said

You should consider this question in your conclusions.