Thank you for that answer.
So time the conditions of time or cause-and-effect do not apply to him but the conditions of space do? Not only does he have a unique relationship with time and space, but he is not mortal (he will survive the fiery lake that is so lethal it destroys death).
Do I have those two points correctly understood?
Mostly true. Since Satan appears in Genesis and Revelation he appears not to be affected by time or deterioration. I infer that he is not omnipresent. Jesus speaks of the spirit looking for a place of rest. Satan seems somewhat equivalent and was said to enter Judas. So omnipresence does not seem to be an attribute of Satan.
Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
But Satan appears to be unique in existence (as seen in Genesis 3) but also unique (singular) in punishment.
Revelation 20:10 (ESV) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
What do you make of Jude 1's statement, "
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day"? Who would you say are these abode-abandoning, darkness-bound, judgment-awaiting angels? Is there any relationship, or correlation, between them and Satan? If so, what would that be?
Again, wherever possible, please use scripture to answer the questions asked and, wherever possible, please use explicit statements from scripture. Thanks
I just shared Rev 20:10 that speaks of Satan's demise. This does not talk about demons, angels, or spirits. So, it makes sense to find a distinction between Satan and the angels in view in Jude 1. Noticeable also is that Isa 14 would tend to speak of a falling later in time than Genesis 3 and thus could not refer to Satan.
For example we see Isaiah 14:12–13 (ESV)
12“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
13You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;
Although the King of Babylon laid nations low (conquered them), Satan was possibly/probably promoting nations and their influence against the people of God. Roughly in view here is Rom 16:20 "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you." and Rev 20: 7-8a "And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle"
I assume that is intended to mean he is unseen by humans.
Sure. He appears to be more like an unclean spirit and thus mainly existing as unseen. Obviously he was seen at that moment in the garden in some fashion when speaking to the woman. It sort of seems he was seen when challenging Job's faith before God. Likewise, it seems possible that Jesus saw him during these temptations of Luke 4:1-13.
What is it you think an "
angel of light" is? For example, Jesus speaks of occasions when humans have unwittingly entertained angels and there are several accounts of humans interacting with angels (messengers of God) that are, presumably, "
angels of light." Where the angels with whom Gideon spoke, for example, angels of light? If so, would it then be reasonable to say Satan could appear as an angel of light similar in appearance to one of those scriptural examples? Similarly, the author of Hebrews directs the saint to show hospitality because "
by this some have entertained angels without knowing it." Presumably, those who've shown hospitality to angels visibly saw the angels to whom they were being hospitable unawares. Would those angels qualify as angels of light? Is it possible for Satan to appear as one of them?
I'm not sure why the long point is made here. Obviously scriptures show God's angels appearing at times. Sometimes this appears to be Christ but there are times that it may be angels that serve God. Of course any angel of God would be a true angel of light.
Matthew 1:20 (NKJV) But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
Gideon per Judges 6:11ff sees and encounters "an angel of the Lord" visibly who turns out to be our Lord. Obviously this appearance is something God can do. In Hebrews it may largely have these type of visits in mind. I'm not sure of general angels getting hospitality. There is the angel that appeared before Balaam. Peter was awakened by the angel of the Lord (Acts 12:7)
Paul obviously introduces that Satan has appeared looking like an angel arriving for a good purpose
2 Co 11:14–15.And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Paul could have heard of situations that would fit this description. We could both likely identify some accounts we would identify as Satan doing so. This does not convince me that Satan has to be visible all the time. It just means some misguided people like saw Satan and thought he was giving them useful advice but was actually evil instruction. Paul used this as analogy of caution against people with a destructive message.
That is apparent from the assertions of these posts.
I'd like to read more about that but think that explanation will be digressive. I wonder how a creature can exist and not be alive, possess thoughts, volition, and self-directed behavior and not be alive. I wonder how there might be an alternative to living other than dead, and what that third condition might be. For now, I think it best to stick to the basics.
I basically corrected myself based on scripture saying Satan is alive per Gen 3:14. The other option is that the serpent refers to an actual animal we would have seen in the forest but was possessed. But that is not likely. We can consider him alive in the sense of having an intellect and of acting on his thoughts.
That is a post-created condition stated in a post-disobedient world about post-disobedient conditions. There's not a single word in that verse that applies to Satan prior to Genesis 3:14. In other words, that is an extremely bad mistake in exegesis.
We see in this verse that Satan was cursed only after deceiving the woman not for some pre-creation act. Nothing says Satan was cursed because of a rebellion in heaven. He would already be cursed for being cast down if that were the case. As to any pre-creation, I have rejected that based on Isa 14 speaking of the middle of time. Plus, no text in scripture says Satan rebelled unless I missed that text.
Perhaps some clarification about this point is in order. Are you describing Satan as He is...... assuming some kind immutability on his part? The implication of Genesis 3:14 is that prior to God's statement in that verse, Satan, the serpent, did not "on his belly he shall go," and did not previously eat dust. In other words, that verse describes a before-and-after. Before verse 14 Satan did not go about on his belly and ate something other than dust (or did not eat at all). By extension, this means that Satan and the conditions of his non-life existence changed - he is not as he has previously been.
I see no indication that Satan is an angel. He only can make himself appear such that some wicked-inclined (or misinformed) people figure he is giving them a good message. Next, I do not see how Satan could be unchangeable since God obvious changed him in Gen 3:14. The description appears to me to be analogical. So this appears to be hampering of Satan's mobility, perhaps between heaven and earth, but there is nothing to say he had been an angel before God. My point was not that Satan's existence could not be modified but rather that he does not exist as flesh and blood that could decay.
Of course. If I find the evidence persuasive a sound reflection of God's word, and a reasonable and rational case for the position asserted I may be persuaded. That goes without saying. Because only you can make the case for what you believe I hope you'll continue to elaborate the case being asserted.
Would you like me to bullet-list the Satan-relevant questions I've asked, or can they be answered as asked?
Hope this helps. It takes possibly a couple hours to write out the answers and gathering some verses.
