civic
Active Member
nope we are discussing the word of God, the gospel message as Gods grace which you deny
nice try with your bait n switch.
stay on topic and stop diverting.
The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
nice try with your bait n switch.
stay on topic and stop diverting.
civic
Active Member
nope you did with Flowers and I defended him since he and I are on the exact same page.
next fallacy
synergy
Active Member
Huh? The word of God is right, powerful, living, and sharper than any two edged sword. Read Heb 4:12.
(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Who's right and who's wrong does not concern me in the least. All I know is that the word of God is right, powerful, living, and sharper than any two edged sword.
civic
Active Member
I will add this to the conversation as well- All by Gods grace- the word of God Hebrews 4:12- living and active.
“…you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:15-16).
“…you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:15-16).
civic
Active Member
Amen right to the heart. Powerful indeed. Gods grace in action. The sword of God.
Jesus said His words give life. From the Word Himself.
civic
Active Member
And more proof what the early church taught and believed.
The Early Church Fathers likewise seemed to agree with this understanding:
Athanasius wrote, “The Holy Scriptures, given by inspiration of God, are of themselves sufficient toward the discovery of truth.”
Irenaeus, (130-202) wrote, “We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel they truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith,” (Adv. H. 3:1)
The Early Church Fathers likewise seemed to agree with this understanding:
Athanasius wrote, “The Holy Scriptures, given by inspiration of God, are of themselves sufficient toward the discovery of truth.”
Irenaeus, (130-202) wrote, “We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel they truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith,” (Adv. H. 3:1)
civic
Active Member
They believe what John taught in His purpose statement in the gospel after his name.
John 20:31 clearly lays out what his inspired words are meant to do:
“…these [scriptures] have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
John 20:31 clearly lays out what his inspired words are meant to do:
“…these [scriptures] have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
civic
Active Member
And I will quote Leighton Flowers below what he actually believes as do I.
Do you see the clear contrast between the Arminian and myself on this point? The Arminian thinks I believe “the gospel is sufficient without the personal work of the Holy Spirit,” whereas I actually believe, “the gospel is sufficient BECAUSE it is the personal work of the Holy Spirit.”
Should we ever conclude that God’s words, graciously inspired by His Spirit, are somehow insufficient to lead anyone who hears them to faith and repentance?
Need there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation? I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture, do you? If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers? Or could it simply be that we all have the same gracious revelation and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is due only to our own free choices?
I suspect that much of the dispute within in the church over the centuries would not have been necessary if we simply dropped this unfounded presupposition that God’s gracious work needs more grace to work.
soteriology101.com
Do you see the clear contrast between the Arminian and myself on this point? The Arminian thinks I believe “the gospel is sufficient without the personal work of the Holy Spirit,” whereas I actually believe, “the gospel is sufficient BECAUSE it is the personal work of the Holy Spirit.”
Should we ever conclude that God’s words, graciously inspired by His Spirit, are somehow insufficient to lead anyone who hears them to faith and repentance?
Need there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation? I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture, do you? If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers? Or could it simply be that we all have the same gracious revelation and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is due only to our own free choices?
I suspect that much of the dispute within in the church over the centuries would not have been necessary if we simply dropped this unfounded presupposition that God’s gracious work needs more grace to work.
Prevenient Grace: An Arminian Error
Why I Prefer Not To Be Called An Arminian: I’ve often told people that I am not an Arminian, but that is not because I dislike Arminians; nor is it because we disagree over that many issues. In fac…
soteriology101.com
Diserner
Active Member
If someone is slandering someone unfairly and unjustly, a true Christian would care about it.
That is the morality and values that Christ taught.
It so ironic that legalistic Christians so often fail in their own morality they confess they have.
Diserner
Active Member
If anyone agrees with the above statement, they have denied their sinful need of God's undeserved gracious sanctification, and claimed an inherent goodness that is self-righteous apart from the perfect Work of Christ on the Cross.
If anyone agrees with the above statement, they have denied the presence and power of the Person of the Holy Spirit and his personal undeserved work in the heart, and replaced it with dead dry intellectual words that they label "Holy Spirit inspired," yet which no longer need his personal presence and power. Direct double speak and internal contradiction.
This is God's truth in the innermost being, and the standard of God's perfect Law that every human being has always fallen short of, and the depth of our need for God's grace.
The Lord convict the hardened heart, the seared conscience, and the stubborn will, and unveil the heart's self-deception.
civic
Active Member
And I will quote Leighton Flowers below what he actually believes as do I.
Do you see the clear contrast between the Arminian and myself on this point? The Arminian thinks I believe “the gospel is sufficient without the personal work of the Holy Spirit,” whereas I actually believe, “the gospel is sufficient BECAUSE it is the personal work of the Holy Spirit.”
Should we ever conclude that God’s words, graciously inspired by His Spirit, are somehow insufficient to lead anyone who hears them to faith and repentance?
Need there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation? I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture, do you? If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers? Or could it simply be that we all have the same gracious revelation and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is due only to our own free choices?
I suspect that much of the dispute within in the church over the centuries would not have been necessary if we simply dropped this unfounded presupposition that God’s gracious work needs more grace to work.
Prevenient Grace: An Arminian Error
Why I Prefer Not To Be Called An Arminian: I’ve often told people that I am not an Arminian, but that is not because I dislike Arminians; nor is it because we disagree over that many issues. In fac…
civic
Active Member
He is talking about regeneration as in Calvinism which precedes faith and salvation.Okay, straight from the Flower's mouth.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
WORD FOR WORD:
"I don't think it requires some internal working of the Spirit that's supernatural and mysterious for someone to come to faith. I think the external means are sufficient..."
A godly person would apologize for slandering me.
That is what a godly person would do.
Way to misrepresent both him and myself.
If these multiple verses are all accepted due to a previous conviction to support a particular theme without even considering other interpretations, then this form of so called exegesis fails as it is in reality just putting your prior conviction into the verse, not finding the meaning from other verses at all, merely using them to parrot your past convictions...
Certainly regeneration is not a previous work in bringing a man into faithOkay, straight from the Flower's mouth.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
WORD FOR WORD:
"I don't think it requires some internal working of the Spirit that's supernatural and mysterious for someone to come to faith. I think the external means are sufficient..."
A godly person would apologize for slandering me.
That is what a godly person would do.
Those who do not believe will not see life
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats the only way a sinner can have Faith in Christ
civic
Active Member
looks like ted quoted doug which bumped the thread then tom read it and quoted you. I don't think there was any ill intent, just my 2 cents fwiw.
Not if you believe scripture.
Those who do not believe will not see life, and life is by regeneration, so one must first believe before regeneration.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah I believe scripture
John 20:31: “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
Romans 1:16 (NASB 95) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.
2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
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