The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Pancho Frijoles]

GOD HIMself told me HE hates sinners...
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
S8130. sane:
Original Word: שָׂנֵא
Definition: To hate, detest, be hostile to
Meaning: to hate

Ps 5:6
Berean Standard Bible
You destroy those who tell lies; the LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
S 8581. taab
Original Word: תַּעָב
Definition: To abhor, to detest, to loathe
Meaning: to loathe, detest

I think it is Proverbs 6:16-19 that has a longer list of what HE hates using both these same words, sane and taab. And if you are getting ready to say: HE hates the sin but not the sinner: then please read Ps 5:5 HE hates all workers of iniquity, a reference to the person sinning. and vs6... the LORD abhores the MAN of bloodshed and deceit.

Does Jesus expects you to hate somebody, TedT?
If the answer is No, please explain how, in the light of Proverbs 5:5. you are expected to be MORE loving than God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Disobeying God has consequences. Bad, painful consequences.

Yes, But it also has a penalty. the wage of sin is death, separation from God. All the other painful consequences of sin will occur. But the penalty of sin, or the judgment for sin is what seperates us from God

When we are teaching our kids to obey our instructions, several times they disobey because they don't believe that such consequences are real.... until they realize they are real... and they get into a painful situation.

What do we do then? Well, we let them bear the consequences inasmuch as they represent an opportunity for them to learn.... but we try to remove all other suffering that does not help them to learn.

once again, the penalty of sin is death, Consequences are painful here on earth. but the eternal consequence is the one we need to worry about. if the wage of sin is not removed (justification) then the consequences are meaningless.

I remember when I left my two girls had an examination at school scheduled for next day, and they spent all afternoon playing instead of studying, despite my warnings and her mother's warnings. I remember she told me "Let them fail the exam. Let them get ashamed. Let them get desperate"
So we did that. My girls failed the test. They got very sad, ashamed, angry with themselves, etc.
But then, once we thought they had learned something, we sat with them to help them prepare for the next examination. We didn't let them to keep suffering more for no reason.

thats great. But I think it misses the point

Same with God's punishment.
It has a purpose. He is not delighted in seeing his children suffer for no reason. And certainly he is not a sadist. He punishes to help us to repent and become what He created us for. He will not punish a soul for eternity if that soul has repented and learnt a lesson.

Again, we are dead in trespasses and sin, we are in adam. We are not Gods children until the wage of sin is removed. this is called justification, which was paid for by the redemptive act of Jesus.

If your not his child (lost) he does not punish you.

Please examine with me these two texts:

"Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent" (Rev 3:19)

“But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?“ (Ezekiel 18:21-23)

again, If your dead spiritually, your not a child of God.

And I agree. repent. That is the gospel. repent and he will remove the wage of sin and give you life..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Me too.
Just consider two things:

1. Such boys/girls have not failed forever. Did the prodigal son fail? Yes, but not forever. So, the good education and love of those parents may yield fruits of repentance and change years ahead. Let's be patient.
2. God's education capabilities and love are far beyond our imperfect skills as parents. As I say: ineffectual parents will succeed in <50% of cases. Good parents in 60%. Excellent parents in 80%. A Divine Father? I guess 100%.

again,

Until you are born again, you are not a son. upi and God are separated because of sin. A perfect God can not relate in any way to any sin. Thats why he told adam in the moment he sinned he would die. His physical death occurred 900 years later. so it was a consequence of sin, not the wage or penalty for sin.

Everything you say is true, For those born of God.. If your not Born of God. non of those things apply

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How do you reconcile saved by grace when enslaved to sin:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works so that no one may boast.....
so,
I would argue that saved by grace denies our will BUT...it denies or overwhelms our enslaved will, NOT our free will because as enslaved to sin, we have no free will.

I think they struggle with the fact of the argument, Again, sadly, it is the calvin vs arminian argument

Arminian says we have free will..
Calvin counters that saying no free will

The truth is that there is free will.. even after salvation. We lose faith in people who let us down. If we love someone, we even allow them to fail us multiple times before we say enough is enough.

God never fails us, so we would never lose faith in God (as far as eternity goes)

Its different than saying I do not yet trust God with this part of my life..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The Bible ends with HIS marriage to HIS creation...suggesting that is why HE created in the first place. But a marriage forced by HIS will cannot be a real marriage and true love cannot be forced - they can only be chosen.

GOD is not a Borg who wants a Stepford wife, HE created us to choose to accept by our free will HIS proclamation of deity, the gospel as found only in the Son and HIS marriage proposal by our free will, not by the force of HIS grace.

Those who rebuked HIM as a husband and a false god left HIS purpose so as to enter into HIS enmity.

Those who accepted HIS proclamation, Col 1:23, to be their GOD and Saviour from sin and accepted becoming HIS bride, entered into HIS will as able to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation even though some later chose to go astray into sin and needed redemption and sanctification, ie, HIS sheep who later chose by their still free will to astray into sin, HIS sinful but good seed, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, the sinful elect.

the flood is a good example.. God repented..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Regeneration does not precede faith in Scripture.

Actually, not only is it in scripture. it is required.

We are dead because of sin. In order for us to be made alive (regenerated) the wage of sin MUST be removed.

Justification occurs through faith. so without faith there is no justification. hence there is no regeneration. its not even possible. your still dead in sin.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If I am correct that the Arminian definition of our enslavement to sin still allows us enough free will to change our minds and decide to put our faith in Christ for salvation then must I not also accept that those who change their minds in hell would also be saved and if so, then hell would be empty, no?

I do not think that those enslaved to sin can change their minds at all without the Holy Spirit...and since their choice to rebuke Him as a false god put themselves outside of HIS saving grace, they are eternally doomed.

Amen,

they willingly denied in unbelief, hence are condemned already as John said in chapter 3.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

and,
if you die, it is proof you were / are a sinner.

never thought of this, But yes, I agree..

 

[civic]

and,
if you die, it is proof you were / are a sinner.

No its a result of sin. An infant killed in the womb is not a sinner guilty of sins committed.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God wants an empty hell. Any country or judiciary system aims at having empty prisons.
And one day, God will be "all in all", as Paul says.
Can God be "all in all" if billions of people are screaming in hatred and eternal evil? Would God be there in them?
Death, hell, hatred, all of that will be defeated.
God always wins.

Yes he wants it. But he created it for satan and his angels. they will be ther forever.

sadly, those who follow their father satan, and do not repent and come to Christ to make God their father, will suffer the same fate.

Gods love can not over rule Gods justice. else God is not who he says he is.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So, is evil eternal, and grace temporary?
I thought God, and his attributes, were eternal.

Grace is eternal. Paid for the the son of God hanging on a cross.

He will not force you to receive it.. But you have a limited time to take God up on his offer.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hi Pancho...very nice thread.

I would say that the question is lacking and maybe you could clarify.
You state that some people remain doing evil things....does this mean that God's plan has been frustrated?

I don't see this as a problem but will respond to your 3 solutions anyway.

It's not a problem because God gave free will to man.
It's MAN'S free will that makes him do evil things.
The evil will not have access to heaven...
Revelation 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no * one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever * come into it, but only * those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It is not God who fails....but man.
God has let man know what has to be done to be saved...
it's up to each person to do this or not to do this.

This is not representative of the biblical God that revealed Himself beginning in Revelation.
Adam sinned. God could have just ended humanity right there, but God is a loving God and gave to man a second chance.
Twice God wanted to exterminate mankind...but He always left a remnant to continue on.



I agree except I really dislike the statement "send to hell those that don't".
It's not so much that God wants to send anyone to hell...it's that a person that does not love and obey God and
is distant from Him and not in communion with HIm, or abiding in Christ...cannot be in the presence of God.
Wherever God is not after death....that will be hell.

This is just not found in scripture as far as I can tell.
No further comment.


Agreed 100%.
The bible is not a collection of verse but a complete message from God...
from Genesis to Revelation.

I'd say the Arminian solution...although I don't know why it's called that, but I can't fight a loosing battle (I've tried).

like everything here, except again, I would call it the grace or free will solution. the arminian solution has flaws as do the other two as shown in the OP

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

...then saving grace is fulfilled by the will of the receiver and he can boast of his work in accepting it, no?

No.

If I am hangin on a ledge and certain death is my only option unless I am rescued. if someone risks or gives his life to save me, and I chose to trust that person, and end up being saved.

I did not "will" myself to salvation, Nor did I save myself. nor can I boast in trusting in the other person.

the only thing we can do is boast in the one who suffered to save me.

 

[civic]

like everything here, except again, I would call it the grace or free will solution. the arminian solution has flaws as do the other two as shown in the OP

There is also Provisionism.

ARTICLES OF AFFIRMATION AND DENIAL​

ARTICLE ONE: THE GOSPEL​

We affirm that the Gospel is the good news that God has made a way of salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for any person. This is in keeping with God’s desire for every person to be saved.

We deny that only a select few are capable of responding to the Gospel while the rest are predestined to an eternity in hell.

Genesis 3:15; Psalm 2:1-12; Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Luke 19.10; Luke 24:45-49; John 1:1-18, 3:16; Romans 1:1-6, 5:8, 8:34; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Galatians 4:4-7; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; Hebrews 1:1-3, 4:14-16; 2 Peter 3:9

ARTICLE TWO: THE SINFULNESS OF MAN​

We affirm that, because of the fall of Adam, every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin and that every person who is capable of moral action will sin. Each person’s sin alone brings the wrath of a holy God, broken fellowship with Him, ever-worsening selfishness and destructiveness, death, and condemnation to an eternity in hell.

We deny that Adam’s sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person’s free will or rendered any person guilty (?) before he has personally sinned. While no sinner is remotely capable of achieving salvation through his own effort, we deny that any sinner is saved apart from a free response to the Holy Spirit’s drawing through the Gospel.

Genesis 3:15-24, 6:5; Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 6:5, 7:15-16, 53:6;Jeremiah 17:5, 9, 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18:19-20; Romans 1:18-32, 3:9-18, 5:12, 6:23, 7:9; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 Corinthians 1:18-25, 6:9-10, 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27-28; Revelation 20:11-15

ARTICLE THREE: THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST​

We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person.

We deny that this atonement results in salvation without a person’s free response of repentance and faith. We deny that God imposes or withholds this atonement without respect to an act of the person’s free will. We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved.

Psalm 22:1-31; Isaiah 53:1-12; John 12:32, 14:6; Acts 10:39-43; Acts 16:30-32; Romans 3:21-26; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:10-14; Philippians 2:5-11; Col. 1:13-20; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; Hebrews 9:12-15, 24-28, 10:1-18; I John 1:7, 2:2

ARTICLE FOUR: THE GRACE OF GOD​

We affirm that grace is God’s generous decision to provide salvation for any person by taking all of the initiative in providing atonement, in freely offering the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, and in uniting the believer to Christ through the Holy Spirit by faith.

We deny that grace negates the necessity of a free response of faith or that it cannot be resisted. We deny that the response of faith is in any way a meritorious work that earns salvation.

Ezra 9:8; Proverbs 3:34; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 19:16-30, 23:37; Luke 10:1-12; Acts 15:11, 20:24; Romans 3:24, 27-28, 5:6, 8, 15-21; Galatians 1:6, 2:21, 5; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:2-9; Colossians 2:13-17; Hebrews 4:16, 9:28; 1 John 4:19

ARTICLE FIVE: THE REGENERATION OF THE SINNER​

We affirm that any person who responds to the Gospel with repentance and faith is born again through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is a new creation in Christ and enters, at the moment he believes, into eternal life.

We deny that any person is regenerated prior to or apart from hearing and responding to the Gospel.

Luke 15:24; John 3:3, 7:37-39, 10:10, 16:7-14; Acts 2:37-39; Romans 6:4-11, 10:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20, 6:15; Colossians 2:13; 1 Peter 3:18

ARTICLE SIX: THE ELECTION TO SALVATION​

We affirm that, in reference to salvation, election speaks of God’s eternal, gracious, and certain plan in Christ to have a people who are His by repentance and faith.

We deny that election means that, from eternity, God predestined certain people for salvation and others for condemnation.

Genesis 1:26-28, 12:1-3; Exodus 19:6;Jeremiah 31:31-33; Matthew 24:31, 25:34; John 6:70, 15:16; Romans 8:29-30, 33, 9:6-8, 11:7; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-6, 2:11-22, 3:1-11, 4:4-13; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 7:9-10

ARTICLE SEVEN: THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD​

We affirm God’s eternal knowledge of and sovereignty over every person’s salvation or condemnation.

We deny that God’s sovereignty and knowledge require Him to cause a person’s acceptance or rejection of faith in Christ.

Genesis 1:1, 6:5-8, 18:16-33, 22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; 1 Chronicles 29:10-20; 2 Chronicles 7:14; Joel 2:32; Psalm 23; 51:4; 139:1-6; Proverbs 15:3; John 6:44; Romans 11:3; Titus 3:3-7; James 1:13-15; Hebrews 11:6, 12:28; 1 Peter 1:17

ARTICLE EIGHT: THE FREE WILL OF MAN​

We affirm that God, as an expression of His sovereignty, endows each person with actual free will (the ability to choose between two options), which must be exercised in accepting or rejecting God’s gracious call to salvation by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

We deny that the decision of faith is an act of God rather than a response of the person. We deny that there is an “effectual call” for certain people that is different from a “general call” to any person who hears and understands the Gospel.

Genesis 1:26-28; Numbers 21:8-9; Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; 1 Samuel 8:1-22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; Esther 3:12-14; Matthew 7:13-14, 11:20-24; Mark 10:17-22; Luke 9:23-24, 13:34, 15:17-20; Romans 10:9-10; Titus 2:12; Revelation 22:17

ARTICLE NINE: THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER​

We affirm that when a person responds in faith to the Gospel, God promises to complete the process of salvation in the believer into eternity. This process begins with justification, whereby the sinner is immediately acquitted of all sin and granted peace with God; continues in sanctification, whereby the saved are progressively conformed to the image of Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit; and concludes in glorification, whereby the saint enjoys life with Christ in heaven forever.

We deny that this Holy Spirit-sealed relationship can ever be broken. We deny even the possibility of apostasy.

John 10:28-29, 14:1-4, 16:12-14; Philippians 1:6; Romans 3:21-26, 8:29, 30, 35-39, 12:1-3; 2 Corinthians 4:17; Ephesians 1:13-14; Philippians 3:12; Colossians 1:21-22; 1 John 2:19, 3:2, 5:13-15; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 13:5; James 1:12; Jude 24-25

ARTICLE TEN: THE GREAT COMMISSION​

We affirm that the Lord Jesus Christ commissioned His church to preach the good news of salvation to all people to the ends of the earth. We affirm that the proclamation of the Gospel is God’s means of bringing any person to salvation.

We deny that salvation is possible outside of a faith response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Psalm 51:13; Proverbs 11:30; Isaiah 52:7; Matthew 28:19-20; John 14:6; Acts 1:8, 4:12, 10:42-43; Romans 1:16, 10:13-15; 1 Corinthians 1:17-21; Ephesians 3:7-9, 6:19-20; Philippians 1:12-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Timothy 2:5; 2 Timothy 4:1-5

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

...those HE hates, HE never loved.

I disagree here

For God so loved THE WORLD. he gave his only son, that whoever in that world. believes, will not perish, but have life.

Again the example is Moses and the bronze serpent.

God loved the children of Israel. They suffered a terminal fate. If God did not intervene they would die.

He had Moses lift a bronze serpent, able to save everyone there. But only those who in faith looked survived. Those who continued to rebel died. because they did not believe.

God loved them and sent his intervention in the form of a bronze serpent. those who died have no one to blame but themselves because they willingly rejected God.. Those who lived could not boast in self. but only in God. because They trusted God and not self. and looked

in the same token, Christ on the cross. Lifted up so whoever believes will be born again

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you personally convinced that God hates some people?
For example, do you think God hates Muslims, gays, Communists, scammers, atheist Chinese, Shinto Japanese, prostitutes. Jews, Gypsies, drug dealers, porn filmmakers, female Anglican priests, Donald Trump’s followers, shareholders of Pharma industry, cocaine addicts, news anchors, esthetic plastic surgeons, tax-evader millionaires, fashion designers, Mormons, agnostic astrophysicists, strippers, Internet hackers, Jehovah Witnesses, sly real state agents, gamblers, profane stand-up comedians, Carmelite monks or Carmelite nuns?

Do you suspect (just suspect) that God hates any of the men or women who participate in the Berean Apologetics Forum?

I am 58 and I haven’t met a single person I could say God hates. But probably you have… let me and our readers know, please.

God so loved the world (jews, muslims, athiest, chinese name them he loves them) that he sent his son to die for them.

If they repent and receive his love, they will be born again and live.

if they remain in unbelief, they will die eternally (it is called the second death in rev)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We already know why they are evil. But what makes you think they will be ETERNALLY evil? Can something evil be eternal?


We all already know that, my friend.
No human being has the power to escape their enslaving addiction to sin. That includes you and me
So, what’s different between, say, Pancho Frijoles, and the people you are describing?



I agree. But why would they be doomed FOREVER?
What makes you think that evil exist forever? Don’t you think that God will beat and destroy evil?

they are evil because they are missing something. God created us to be loved by him, when we rebelled and went against him, we lost the capability of that love, until that is restored. we have to love self.. and hence why we are evil.

Those in hell still are missing what is lost. so they will continue..

people think hell will be a big party.. Look at the places on earth without God. and the selfish ambition of everyone.. That's what hell will be but 100 times worse.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Does Jesus expects you to hate somebody, TedT?
If the answer is No, please explain how, in the light of Proverbs 5:5. you are expected to be MORE loving than God.

considering God gave his life on the cross.

It would be impossible to be more loving..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is also Provisionism.

​

never heard of this group

 

[Dizerner]

Actually, not only is it in scripture. it is required. We are dead because of sin. In order for us to be made alive (regenerated) the wage of sin MUST be removed. Justification occurs through faith. so without faith there is no justification. hence there is no regeneration. its not even possible. your still dead in sin.

The answer is simple—God can give grace without fully regenerating a person, which Preceding Grace is all throughout Scripture.

Calvinism is badly mistaken in both its logic and its misinterpretation of Scripture. Please see the following:'

Post in thread 'The Gospel Of Salvation'

Jan 3, 2025

@brightfame52 @Kermos @Presby02

*Why Calvinism is a bad thing and I reject it as false.*

I reject Calvinism for a lot of sound reasons (that I explain later on below), but I found many people gravitate towards the wrong reasons for rejecting Calvinism where in fact the Calvinist is actually more correct than they are; this muddies the waters, because then it becomes a partial confused truth, and one error trying to correct another. So first are the 2 reasons I do NOT reject Calvinism, followed by the 5 reasons I DO.

_1. Calvinism is not wrong because God does not have...

• Dizerner

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Post in thread 'An Article on free will'

Dec 31, 2024

Ever heard the phrase "free will is not in the Bible?" This is a misleading assertion made by many, as if only a certain specificity of statement can communicate an idea. But I do not accept the Trinity because it is explicitly declared in Scripture, but rather that it is in inevitable deduction from the stated data. Thus there is no shame or wrong in any idea not being stated as clearly as it could possibly be stated, when it can be clearly deduced. Hence, the philosophical notion of libertarian freedom is under the same umbrella, for just as the Trinity is deduced from Scripture...

• Dizerner