The suppression of reason, logic, common sense and morality in Calvinism

[TomL]

So God is not immutable?

I believe he might be writing concerning verses like this

Gen 6:6And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exod 32:14And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Judg 2:18And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

1 Sam 15:35And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

2 Sam 24:16And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

1 Chron 21:15And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Ps 106:45And he remembered for them his covenant, And repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

Amos 7:3The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord.

Amos 7:6The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God.

Jonah 3:10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

One must determine the value of repent here. Anthropomorphism or otherwise

 

[Presby02]

My very reason for brining up Pilate was for what RT stated when they said,

Maybe God doesn't know how to resolve the conflict between determinism and non-determinism in a way that humans can understand.

So Calvinists put people into a position where they're claiming we just can't know what truth is. (as Pilate did)

Take it up with them.

 

[Presby02]

I believe he might be writing concerning verses like this

Gen 6:6And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exod 32:14And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Judg 2:18And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

1 Sam 15:35And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

2 Sam 24:16And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

1 Chron 21:15And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Ps 106:45And he remembered for them his covenant, And repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

Amos 7:3The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord.

Amos 7:6The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God.

Jonah 3:10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

One must determine the value of repent here. Anthropomorphism or otherwise

I understand that. That's the reason I brought up God's omniscience.

 

[TomL]

I understand that. That's the reason I brought up God's omniscience.

Then it could be argued what is omniscience

I hold to classic theism but one who holds to dynamic omniscience also claims to believe in God's omniscience.

 

[Presby02]

Then it could be argued what is omniscience

I hold to classic theism but one who holds to dynamic omniscience also claims to believe in God's omniscience.

Dynamic omniscience is not omniscience. It's simply cover for being a Open Theist.

 

[TomL]

Dynamic omniscience is not omniscience. It's simply cover for being a Open Theist.

Well that may be, but that is an argument for those who hold to dynamic omniscience

 

[civic]

Then it could be argued what is omniscience

I hold to classic theism but one who holds to dynamic omniscience also claims to believe in God's omniscience.

Ditto the same with predestination is much different than he Calvinists definition and view, the same with sovereignty, election , original sin and a host of other things

 

[civic]

I understand that. That's the reason I brought up God's omniscience.

Your view or my view is not the only view on the topic. Just like with the atonement there are different views.

An early reference to Jewish ideas of future omniscience.

The following extract from the Midrash Rabbah I am writing in order that you may know how to refute the arguments of certain heretics: A gentile once asked Rabbi Joshua, the son of Korcha, saying to him, “Do you not admit that the Holy One, blessed be He, knows what is to happen in the future?” He replied, “Yes.” The gentile retorted, “But is it not written ‘and He was grieved in His heart’?” He answered: “Have you ever had a son born to you?” The reply was “Yes.” He asked (the gentile): “And what did you do?” He replied: “I rejoiced and I made others rejoice also.” The Rabbi asked him: “But did you not know that he must die?” The heathen replied: “At the time of joy, let there be joy, at the time of mourning let there be mourning”. The Rabbi then said: “Such, too, is the way of the Holy One, blessed be He: although it was clear to Him that in the end men would sin and would be destroyed, He did not refrain from creating them for the sake of the righteous men who were to issue from them” (Genesis Rabbah 27:4).

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

Your view or my view is not the only view on the topic. Just like with the atonement there are different views.

An early reference to Jewish ideas of future omniscience.


hope this helps !!!

Your view or my view is not the only view on the topic. Just like with the atonement there are different views.

An early reference to Jewish ideas of future omniscience.


hope this helps !!!

True. So call it Open Theism. There is no such thing as dynamic omniscience.

 

[Presby02]

Well that may be, but that is an argument for those who hold to dynamic omniscience

Okay, do you hold to Dynamic omniscience?

 

[civic]

True. So call it Open Theism. There is no such thing as dynamic omniscience.

Sure there is unless you believe God is static and not involved actively in the affairs of man.

Hint Hint- the Incarnation should tell you all you need to know about Gods dynamic and active presence with man.

 

[Presby02]

Sure there is unless you believe God is static and not involved actively in the affairs of man.

Hint Hint- the Incarnation should tell you all you need to know about Gods dynamic and active presence with man.

No one says He is not. None the less there is no such thing as Dynamic Omniscience. It's Open Theism.

 

[civic]

I understand that. That's the reason I brought up God's omniscience.

Just a few of many below that can be found all over the pages of scripture.


Gen 18:21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
Ps 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
Eze 22:30 So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

No one says He is not. None the less there is no such thing as Dynamic Omniscience. It's Open Theism.

The Bible says otherwise. God is dynamic in the sense He operates in real time interacting with man. God also answers prayer and will go another direction from what He had said previously. He listened to Moses and did not wipe out the Israelites. He listened to Abraham when He pleaded with Him in Genesis 18. And God repented that He made man and brought the flood and several other examples.

 

[Presby02]

The Bible says otherwise. God is dynamic in the sense He operates in real time interacting with man. God also answers prayer and will go another direction from what He had said previously. He listened to Moses and did not wipe out the Israelites. He listened to Abraham when He pleaded with Him in Genesis 18. And God repented that He made man and brought the flood and several other examples.

It's Open Theism that you appear to be embracing.

The Bible does not mention Dynamic Omniscience nor Open Theism. Heretics do.

 

[civic]

It's Open Theism that you appear to be embracing.

The Bible does not mention Dynamic Omniscience nor Open Theism. Heretics do.

God actively interacts with man and changes His actions depending on mans response. Its all over scripture.

Exodus 33:17 So the LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”

1Samuel 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.

Jonah 3:4-9 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water.8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?

Jonah 4:2 So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

I'm not sure how much scripture you need to read that contradicts your view.

 

[civic]

The irony of the OP is at work now. Its good to see it live on the forum. This confirms the OP is true.

 

[Presby02]

God actively interacts with man and changes His actions depending on mans response. Its all over scripture.

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.

Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water.
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?

Jon 4:2 So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

I'm not sure how much scripture you need to read that contradicts your view.

It's still Open Theism. There one in the same. You can change titles, change definitions, it's Open Theism.

 

[Presby02]

The irony of the OP is at work now. Its good to see it live on the forum. This confirms the OP is true.

Somebody cannot handle the truth. The slope is getting slippery as we speak.

 

[civic]

It's still Open Theism. There one in the same. You can change titles, change definitions, it's Open Theism.

Exactly just like fatalism is determinism.