The Soteriology of Ignorance: Why to Preach?

[Pancho Frijoles]

I do not have any Satanists or Christ deniers I would call my spiritual brother

The command of 2 Cor 6:14 is clear

2 Corinthians 6:14 (NASB95) — 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?


We are not to be unequally yoked. So we do not enter into relationships where we would be so bound

If we find ourselves in such a relation in marriage

1 Corinthians 7:10–16 (LEB) — 10 To the married I command—not I, but the Lord—a wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if indeed she does separate, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12 Now to the rest I say—not the Lord—if any brother has an unbelieving wife and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if any wife has an unbelieving husband and he consents to live with her, she must not divorce her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the brother, since otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him leave. The brother or the sister is not bound in such cases. But God has called us in peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

It is good not to get divorced, as per the apostolic advice.
But I’m talking about something much deeper. I don’t get divorced because I love my wife and feel loved by her.
Same with my sister. It is not just a matter of visiting her from time to time, but of enjoying and eduring things together.

Do you love anyone who does not believe that the Bible is inspired, or that Jesus is God?

 

[TomL]

It is good not to get divorced, as per the apostolic advice.
But I’m talking about something much deeper. I don’t get divorced because I love my wife and feel loved by her.
Same with my sister. It is not just a matter of visiting her from time to time, but of enjoying and eduring things together.

Do you love anyone who does not believe that the Bible is inspired, or that Jesus is God?

Why do you divert appealing to familial relations?

The passage is clear we should not bind ourselves in certain relation where we will be unequally yoked

2 Corinthians 6:14 (NASB95) — 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Why do you divert appealing to familial relations?

Not just to family relations… it may be relations at your workplace, or within your neighborhood, or with long-time friend.
I’m not diverting, but getting to the point, TomL
We love persons who do not accept the inspiration of the Bible or the deity of Jesus or whatever doctrine we value.
We laugh and weep with them. We are kind and patient to them. We enjoy listening to them or having fun with them.
We find life more enjoyable because of them.

At least I do. If you don’t, then tell me and tell our readers.

The passage is clear we should not bind ourselves in certain relation where we will be unequally yoked

2 Corinthians 6:14 (NASB95) — 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

How do you apply 2 Corinthians 6:14 in your daily life?

 

[Studyman]

This thread is to invite you to discuss salvation in the context of doctrinal ignorance.
We will not discuss here moral ignorance, in the sense of not being able to choose the best moral course of action on account of a still immature cognitive and spiritual development (eg, a little kid who takes candy from the shop without paying for it).

We will rather discuss salvation in people with "doctrinal ignorance": not assenting to whatever doctrine you think is essential for salvation, due to a partial, inaccurate or null understanding of such doctrine.

It is my understanding that most of my Christian brothers and sisters believe that God will save those "doctrinally ignorant" who acted in harmony to the limited level of understanding they had about God, his love and commandments. Such approach is not only applicable to children, mentally disabled and people from other civilizations, religion traditions and times, but also to people within Christian churches as well, as not everyone who self-identifies as "Christian" is equally "knowledgeable" about essential doctrines.

So far, so good.

The problem arises when Christians preach non-Christians doctrines A, B or C, and do not succeed in persuading them to believe those doctrines.

Jesus speaks to this very thing in the Holy Scriptures concerning His Apostles who were sent by God to promote the Holy Scriptures, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Matt. 10: 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Keep in mind that Jesus warned against "MANY" "Christians", defined as men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "Come in His Name" or as Paul teaches, "transforms themselves into Apostles of Christ", to promote a different love than the one Jesus lived by. A human love not associated with "Yielding oneself" in obedience to God's Commandments.

In the case of Matt. 10, as you can see, the issue isn't "ignorance" of God's definition of Love promoted by the Apostles of Christ, it is rebellion/unbelief of God's definition of His Love. Sodom was not destroyed because of ignorance, in my view, but because of rebellion against God's Definition of Love.

Ex. 16: 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long "refuse ye" to keep my commandments and my laws?

It was not ignorance that caused these men to turn away from God's Love, it was rebellion.

1 John 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this "is the love of God", that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Eve was convinced by another voice in the garden God placed her in, who quoted "some" of God's Word, to rebel against God's Love and adopt the definition of love promoted by the other voice in the garden.

I believe this story was written so that I might not rebel against God's Love after HE has shown it to me.

In that case, some Christians come to think that such people have rejected the gospel, and that if they die in such situation, they will endure a well-deserved eternal torment. By trying to make them "doctrinally knowledgeable", instead of leaving them "doctrinally ignorant", they have put their lives at risk of eternal hell.

So, my question for you is
Why would Christians preach to non-Christians, instead of leaving them in ignorance?

As a non-Christian, I believe Christians have very noble and powerful reasons to preach Christ to non-believers.
However, before sharing my opinion, I would like to know yours.

There is a huge difference, in my view, between ignorance and unbelief. For instance, in the Bible "God's Love" is defined for us. We can look to the Law and Prophets for examples of men who were filled with God's Love. Noah and Abraham partook of God's Love. David, Shadrach, Zacharias, Paul. All these examples of men given us though the Holy Bible were united in their "belief" regarding the definition of God's Love. And we have the Prophesied Christ, the Jesus of the Bible, who exhibited the greatest example of "God's Love" above any other human ever born of a woman.

So, it seems prudent for those who have heard of the God of Abraham, to seek Him out.

So what is a "Christian", Are they just men who "call Jesus Lord, Lord"? Or what is a Jew, are they just men who "Profess to know God"? Or who are the Children of Abraham, are they just men born of a certain DNA?

And what is God's Love?

The answer to all these questions is given in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus and Paul lived by and promoted. I don't believe the promoters of this world's many different religious sects and businesses are "ignorant" of these things, they just don't believe them.

 

[civic]

I do not have any Satanists or Christ deniers I would call my spiritual brother

The command of 2 Cor 6:14 is clear

2 Corinthians 6:14 (NASB95) — 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?


We are not to be unequally yoked. So we do not enter into relationships where we would be so bound

If we find ourselves in such a relation in marriage

1 Corinthians 7:10–16 (LEB) — 10 To the married I command—not I, but the Lord—a wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if indeed she does separate, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12 Now to the rest I say—not the Lord—if any brother has an unbelieving wife and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if any wife has an unbelieving husband and he consents to live with her, she must not divorce her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the brother, since otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him leave. The brother or the sister is not bound in such cases. But God has called us in peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

Excellent Scriptures and discernment brother.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Excellent Scriptures and discernment brother.

Dear civic

Our brother @TomL has not answered how he applies those texts in his life. Can you share with us, civic, how do you apply those Scriptures in your life?

My thesis is clear: civic, and @TomL love people who don’t accept or are not interested at all in the inspiration of the Bible, or the deity of Jesus, or even the existence of God. Civic and @TomL listen patiently to them, and actively seek spending time with them, care about them, are kind to them, go distance to help them, because civic and TomL love them.
When such people are in pain, civic and @TomL have pain as well. When those people are happy, civic and @TomL get happy for them.

Is it so difficult to understand this?
I have no problem in admitting that more than 90% or people I love are not believers, not religious.
Who in the Forum does not hesitate to admit: “Yes, I love one or two persons who have expressed zero interest in believing what I believe”?

 

[TomL]

Dear civic

Our brother @TomL has not answered how he applies those texts in his life. Can you share with us, civic, how do you apply those Scriptures in your life?

My thesis is clear: civic, and @TomL love people who don’t accept or are not interested at all in the inspiration of the Bible, or the deity of Jesus, or even the existence of God. Civic and @TomL listen patiently to them, and actively seek spending time with them, care about them, are kind to them, go distance to help them, because civic and TomL love them.
When such people are in pain, civic and @TomL have pain as well. When those people are happy, civic and @TomL get happy for them.

Is it so difficult to understand this?
I have no problem in admitting that more than 90% or people I love are not believers, not religious.
Who in the Forum does not hesitate to admit: “Yes, I love one or two persons who have expressed zero interest in believing what I believe”?

You are somewhat confused

I spoke of not being yoked with unbelievers

I also stated unbelievers are not my spiritual brothers

You are off on a tangent

 

[TomL]

Not just to family relations… it may be relations at your workplace, or within your neighborhood, or with long-time friend.
I’m not diverting, but getting to the point, TomL
We love persons who do not accept the inspiration of the Bible or the deity of Jesus or whatever doctrine we value.
We laugh and weep with them. We are kind and patient to them. We enjoy listening to them or having fun with them.
We find life more enjoyable because of them.

At least I do. If you don’t, then tell me and tell our readers.



How do you apply 2 Corinthians 6:14 in your daily life?

I do not unequally yoke myself with them

I can pray for them and witness to them and perform acts of kindness

Once again, you are ignoring the issue unbelievers are not a Christian's spiritual brothers.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I do not unequally yoke myself with them

I can pray for them and witness to them and perform acts of kindness

Once again, you are ignoring the issue unbelievers are not a Christian's spiritual brothers.

I don’t know what that means in practice. Perhaps you can help me.
Tell me examples of things you do with spiritual brothers that you don’t do with those you don’t consider a spiritual brother.

 

[TomL]

I don’t know what that means in practice. Perhaps you can help me.
Tell me examples of things you do with spiritual brothers that you don’t do with those you don’t consider a spiritual brother.

A spiritual brother is a brother in the faith

There are things those in the faith will not do, but unbelievers will

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A spiritual brother is a brother in the faith

There are things those in the faith will not do, but unbelievers will

Then our “spiritual” brotherhood, so to speak, lies in what people do or doesn’t do. I agree with that.
If you were traveling with me to Las Vegas and some other people, you and me would both reject to get drunk, sleep with women, gamble, mock people, inhale cocaine, or forget to pray.
We would live a kind o life that would bring us together. You would be my spiritual mate and I would be yours, because we share the same values.

 

[TomL]

Then our “spiritual” brotherhood, so to speak, lies in what people do or doesn’t do. I agree with that.
If you were traveling with me to Las Vegas and some other people, you and me would both reject to get drunk, sleep with women, gamble, mock people, inhale cocaine, or forget to pray.
We would live a kind o life that would bring us together. You would be my spiritual mate and I would be yours, because we share the same values.

No, not being Christian, you would not be my spiritual brother

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is a huge difference, in my view, between ignorance and unbelief. For instance, in the Bible "God's Love" is defined for us. We can look to the Law and Prophets for examples of men who were filled with God's Love. Noah and Abraham partook of God's Love. David, Shadrach, Zacharias, Paul. All these examples of men given us though the Holy Bible were united in their "belief" regarding the definition of God's Love. And we have the Prophesied Christ, the Jesus of the Bible, who exhibited the greatest example of "God's Love" above any other human ever born of a woman.

So, it seems prudent for those who have heard of the God of Abraham, to seek Him out.

So what is a "Christian", Are they just men who "call Jesus Lord, Lord"? Or what is a Jew, are they just men who "Profess to know God"? Or who are the Children of Abraham, are they just men born of a certain DNA?

And what is God's Love?

The answer to all these questions is given in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus and Paul lived by and promoted. I don't believe the promoters of this world's many different religious sects and businesses are "ignorant" of these things, they just don't believe them.

Hi, Studyman!

Thanks for addressing the difference between ignorance and unbelief. I agree with you that there is a difference and a huge one.
What would be for you examples of ignorance?
As a reminder, we are talking here about "doctrinal" ignorance, not ignorance about what is good and what is evil.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don't believe the promoters of this world's many different religious sects and businesses are "ignorant" of these things, they just don't believe them.

The Bible teaches that condemnation resides not in having sincere, honest doubts on the veracity of something that is preached to you.
Condemnation resides in rejecting the truth because it would imply to leave asides our bad habits, bad behaviors. Let's read the text:

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." (John 3:18-20)​

It is the prevalent thought in many sectarian businesses, that "light" means the correct creed and "darkness" the mistaken creed.
This is so convenient for their leaders, because they want people to remain in their particular sect on account on the false security of being "in the light" or "in the truth" that can only be offered by subscribing to the right, orthodox view. By doing that wicked leaders ensure access to their minds and pocket$ and keep competitors at bay. (Leaving the sect to adhere to a competitor church equals apostasy).
But if we examine the passage, light and darkness are determined by the kind of life the person lives... the deeds.

So, one thing is to reject religion X on the basis of a critical review of their doctrines and practices (regardless of how accurate or successful that review ends up being).
Another thing is to reject religion X because we want to remain sleeping around with people who are not our spouses, and thinking only in making money, which the God presented by religion X demands us to quit.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Satan can masquerade as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:12-15), and so can his followers disguise themselves as followers of Christ. You may be able to imitate the love that God commands of His followers, but that doesn't make you one of His children.

Genuine love and the fruits of the spirit cannot be imitated by Satan. It would be against Satan's purpose.
Satan can deceive people through other means, like eloquence, appearance, beauty, intellect, might or power, wealth, popularity, indulgence in sins, etc. That is what 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 refers to.

If Satan could fake a loving life, a holy life, the fruits of the Spirit, then Jesus

• wouldn't have given us the examination of fruits as a method to tell true from false teachers
• wouldn't have emphasized that the bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit
• wouldn't have established love as the sign of true discipleship
• wouldn't have told those who accused them that Beelzebub does not fight Beelzebub.
• Additionally, the author of 1 John wouldn't have established love to others as the sign of having passed from death to life.

All this is sound biblical doctrine, taught by Jesus Himself.

So, in conclusion, when Satan masquerades as an angel of light, he does it in thousands of ways, EXCEPT a true change in the way we live. That can ONLY be performed by the grace of God.

 

[Doug Brents]

Genuine love and the fruits of the spirit cannot be imitated by Satan. It would be against Satan's purpose.

No, it would not. If it causes you to think that you are in Christ when you are not, then his purpose it accomplished, for his purpose it to prevent us from being united to God as he longs to be but cannot.

Satan can deceive people through other means, like eloquence, appearance, beauty, intellect, might or power, wealth, popularity, indulgence in sins, etc. That is what 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 refers to.

If Satan could fake a loving life, a holy life, the fruits of the Spirit, then Jesus

• wouldn't have given us the examination of fruits as a method to tell true from false teachers
• wouldn't have emphasized that the bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit
• wouldn't have established love as the sign of true discipleship
• wouldn't have told those who accused them that Beelzebub does not fight Beelzebub.
• Additionally, the author of 1 John wouldn't have established love to others as the sign of having passed from death to life.

All this is sound biblical doctrine, taught by Jesus Himself.

So, in conclusion, when Satan masquerades as an angel of light, he does it in thousands of ways, EXCEPT a true change in the way we live. That can ONLY be performed by the grace of God.

I didn't say that Satan changed the way he lives, or his character. But he can mimic the fruit of the Spirit in order to deceive us. But it is always bad fruit, in that it is not done from a pure motive (but it still looks real to us who don't know the motives).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I didn't say that Satan changed the way he lives, or his character. But he can mimic the fruit of the Spirit in order to deceive us. But it is always bad fruit, in that it is not done from a pure motive (but it still looks real to us who don't know the motives).

I see your point. You are probably talking about hypocrisy. But here I am not talking about hypocrisy. The acts made with hypocrisy are revealed more sooner than later. I'm talking here about the genuine love that you witness in the life of a man or woman, and that make us glorify God.

If telling the tree for their fruits were a weak and very fallible method, Jesus would not have given that method to us. Do you agree? He explicitly instructed "For their fruits you will know them". For sure, a faked holiness is not holiness at all, whatever the religion of the person who tries to fake it. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13 that if he gave all his wealth to the poor, but without love, it would be worthless. Still, genuine love speaks to our hearts and is evident and unfalsifiable.

So, let's focus not on hypocrisy, but on deeds of love.

Jesus was completely SURE that his deeds spoke by themselves. His deeds were his credentials, the ultimate test of reliability of his claims:

"Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (John 10:37,38)​

We both agree, Doug, that Satan has NO interest in the violent becoming meek, or the adulterer becoming faithful, or the selfish becoming generous. The interest of Satan is for the dead to remain dead. Not to give them a life that he is NOT CAPABLE of giving them.

 

[Studyman]

Hi, Studyman!

Thanks for addressing the difference between ignorance and unbelief. I agree with you that there is a difference and a huge one.
What would be for you examples of ignorance?
As a reminder, we are talking here about "doctrinal" ignorance, not ignorance about what is good and what is evil.

I think God defines what is Good, what is Clean, what is Holy, and what is Evil (I think you may be calling these "Doctrinal issues") in the Holy Scriptures for anyone seeking the God of Abraham. Some men in the examples given to us in the Bible, for the purpose of justifying their own judgments, do not believe in God's Judgments, and they set about to establish their own Judgments, refusing to submit unto the Judgments of God, as it is written. This would be rebellion/unbelief towards God and HIS Instruction in Righteousness.

Ignorance would be a person who has never heard about the God of Abraham, has never been shown this God's Judgments concerning His definition of Good, Clean, Holy or Evil.

Given that the Bible is by far the most read Book ever to be written in the history of this world, and it is written in over 3000 languages, I don't believe we live in the land of Ignorance any longer, although there was a time on earth in which we were, in my view.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Given that the Bible is by far the most read Book ever to be written in the history of this world, and it is written in over 3000 languages, I don't believe we live in the land of Ignorance any longer, although there was a time on earth in which we were, in my view.

On the contrary, I believe that the vast majority of people on earth are ignorant in 90% of the doctrines discussed in this Forum that are considered to be clear in the Bible. One thing is to have heard of something, and another different thing to know it.

Let me take you as an example. my brother. You are a person very interested in religion. So interested, that you visit this Forum regularly and read the Bible and think about these things regularly.

Well, let me ask you:

What do you really know about Bahá'u'lláh and His Message?

So, even a person like you, who interacts regularly with a Baha'i like me, perhaps has no real knowledge about Bahá'u'lláh... and frankly, perhaps not a lot of interest in knowing. It is not that you are lazy or indifferent to truth. I am sure you are diligent and not indifferent to truth. It is just that you have already found truth and joy and love in God and Jesus Christ within the framework you believe in, and that's enough for you.

People in this Forum who have digged into websites or Internet information about the Baha'i Faith have mostly done it with the purpose of
refuting my propositions and/or under the basic premise that the Baha'i Faith must be wrong. In other words, with a bias.

I'm giving this just as an example.

Now go to the streets and plazas or Internet forums of say, cars or sports, or science, and find out how much the people know about God and Christ and the Bible.

The prevalent notion about the Bible, for example, would be something like this:

"The Bible is a book that speaks about God in dense, obscure terms that make it boring and difficult. I don't think I need to read it or understand it in order to be a good person. I have heard portions of it in some popular sayings, I guess, or at church, when I have attended a wedding. Some things it says are cool, but I'm not so sure about the rest. I suppose it is at odds with science or modern thought"​

With such thinking in mind, why would you think that the average person actually KNOWS and UNDERSTAND (leat alone accept to be true) what God demands in the Bible?

Now let's take as an example a group of people who ARE religious, but profess a different religion, say, the Sikhs.

The prevalent notion about the Bible for a Sikh would be something like this:

"The Bible is a book of Jews and Christians that I respect. Jesus was a kind of guru, so I guess the Bible must contain very beautiful statements about God, that must be very useful for Christians to guide their life. I have read just to little, to be sincere.... just some portions from the gospels. This is because, as a Sikh, I spend most of my time meditating in the words of the gurus, starting with the Guru Granth Sahib. What I have found in the gospels is consistent with the messages of the gurus.... you know... detachment from the things of the flesh, love, justice, mercy, remembering the name of God... things like that."​

With such thinking in mind, why would you think that the average Sikh actually KNOWS and UNDERSTAND (let alone accept to be true) what God demands in the Bible?

 

[Doug Brents]

I see your point. You are probably talking about hypocrisy. But here I am not talking about hypocrisy. The acts made with hypocrisy are revealed more sooner than later. I'm talking here about the genuine love that you witness in the life of a man or woman, and that make us glorify God.

If telling the tree for their fruits were a weak and very fallible method, Jesus would not have given that method to us. Do you agree? He explicitly instructed "For their fruits you will know them". For sure, a faked holiness is not holiness at all, whatever the religion of the person who tries to fake it. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13 that if he gave all his wealth to the poor, but without love, it would be worthless. Still, genuine love speaks to our hearts and is evident and unfalsifiable.

So, let's focus not on hypocrisy, but on deeds of love.

Jesus was completely SURE that his deeds spoke by themselves. His deeds were his credentials, the ultimate test of reliability of his claims:

"Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (John 10:37,38)​

We both agree, Doug, that Satan has NO interest in the violent becoming meek, or the adulterer becoming faithful, or the selfish becoming generous. The interest of Satan is for the dead to remain dead. Not to give them a life that he is NOT CAPABLE of giving them.

Satan doesn't care if the violent become meek, or the adulterer becomes faithful, or if any sinner repents and turns from his sin to a perfectly God-like existence after he sins just one time. Because once Satan has someone they cannot get free of him, ever, without Jesus. It is ONLY in Christ that we become free of Satan, and there is only one way into union with Jesus.