The Shema

[Fred]

”The Jews … to this day … still assert that God is only one in person, as well as in nature.”

(William Beveridge, Private Thoughts on Religion, p. 66)

And that He (God) alone is the proper recipient of prayer.

The "one Lord" (YHWH) cannot be differentiated from prayer which He alone is to receive.

The underlined below is mine:
Judaism 101: The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to another. (The Nature of G-d)
http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

 

[Matthias]

“Judaism [is] Unitarian.”

(Emil Brunner, Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 205)

 

[Matthias]

”Judaism has always been rigorously unitarian.”

(The Jewish Encyclopedia, “Deism”)

Is anyone shocked or surprised to hear that Jews are unitarians, not trinitarians?

 

[Fred]

”Judaism has always been rigorously unitarian.”

(The Jewish Encyclopedia, “Deism”)

And yet the Messenger of YHWH was the proper recipient of prayer in Genesis 48:16.

 

[Matthias]

“The monolithic God worshipped by the Jews [is worshipped] by … unitarians.”

(Richard E. Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, p. 209)

For those who may not be familiar with Rubenstein, he’s a Jew. The other authors I’ve quoted have all been trinitarians.

I very seldom quote unitarian sources when speaking with trinitarians. I wanted to alert the reader that this is a quote from a unitarian source.

 

[Fred]

“The monolithic God worshipped by the Jews [is worshipped] by … unitarians.”

(Richard E. Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, p. 209)

For those who may not be familiar with Rubenstein, he’s a Jew. The other authors I’ve quoted have all been trinitarians.

I very seldom quote unitarian sources when speaking with trinitarians. I wanted to alert the reader that this is a quote from a unitarian source.

And yet you claim you pray to Jesus!

 

[APAK]

An old friend of mine Jeff Shirton posted this and I found it to be very good.

In the NT, we frequently find the phrase, "God the Father". We never find this phrase, the OT, only in the New, after the incarnation of the Christ.

So if only the Father is God, then why did the Biblical authors need to DISTINGUISH the phrase, "God" with "the Father", instead of simply saying "God" as they did in the OT?
Why wasn't "God" sufficient?
Why the need for "God the Father"?

I will suggest an answer, it was to distinguish the Father from the Son, since the Son is also (the same) God.


This isn't Christian theology, it's Jewish theology, expanded with Christian revelation.

It this a comedy thread? This is nutty..as you, your friend both are still searching in all the wrong places as they say, for the real Father and Son.

Your friend is mistaken on all counts and so are you on both of your conclusions.

1. First the Bible in the NT does NOT used the expression, 'God THE Father,' that is a Trinitarian slant. You must know this already, well I certainty do, as I lived it in my earlier years with RCC.

2. In the NT, many times it says God, our Father with additional preceding adjectives for 'God' or the 'Father.'

3. And most of the time 'God our Father' or 'our Father who is God' or some similar expression is just replaced by the word 'God' because the writers understood, along with their audiences that 'God' means just the Father. And this also apply to the OT. The Son was not any part of it at all.

4. And we have been over the chaos that the translators caused in both the OT and the NT by mixing up the titles of YHWH and his son, and labeling then at times with the same designation.

5. And your ill-founded premise that Jewish theology is somehow divorced and different from so-called revealed Christian theology is you landing and now walking on very thin ice. I think this is a statement made with little or no thought. I will leave it at that.

 

[Fred]

the real Father and Son.

Does the Bible teach the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer?

 

[Matthias]

“Abraham, Moses and Elijah were all equally zealous monotheists and in none of their successors was there any retrogression from the highest and purest form of unitarian belief.”

(Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Vol. 7, p. 582)

 

[Fred]

monotheists

In defining "Monotheism" the Jewish Encyclopedia (1901) affirms that it entails the "worshipers of the one God and of Him alone." (See the first paragraph)
https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/tje/m/monotheism.html

Those who assert that the Lord Jesus is not God, but affirm He can be worshiped are not monotheists. Since the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of worship, which clearly demonstrates that He is God, the comment by A. H. Leitch's in "The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible" is most appropriate:
There may be reasons why the deity of Christ might be controverted, but such reasons cannot be drawn from any serious acceptance of Scripture (2:92, deity of Christ).

 

[APAK]

Does the Bible teach the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer?

Fred:

Prayer and honor go together as you well know. We usually pray to the Son to ask him something in the realm or capacity of his new foundered power and authority of especially the Body of believers, like when Matthias became the 12th disciple who replaced Judas, as you have throw out this example several times already.

If one knows that Jesus has today been given authority on earth and in heaven we surely can pray and give honor to him, although it is different and subordinate to his Father.

Knowing that the Father is the true recipient of not only these prayers to his Son, of all prayers to him and of his Son. The Father is given the ultimate honor and glory in this process of this spiritual communication.

We cannot force the Son to be the same in prayer and honor if this is your intent.

Remember, that if not for the Father, the Son would not exist and become our saviour. We would all still be lost in sin.

However, to reiterate a comment I already made, and I want to impress, most of scriptures associated with prayer and honor make it very clear that God (Father) is the primary and initial source of life and all creation, and therefore he and only he should be the primary recipient of our worship, praise, and supplication.

 

[Matthias]

“So, what was Jesus’ religion? The simple answer is Judaism. … Jesus was a rabbi - a teacher of Judaism.

(Stephanie Hammon, “What Religion Was Jesus?”)

What Religion Was Jesus? - Jews for Jesus

Historians agree, Jesus was a first-century teacher of Judaism, a rabbi. But then what kind of Judaism did Jesus teach?

jewsforjesus.org

Bold is hers.

Judaism is unitarian. Jesus is a Jew. His religion is Judaism. Jesus is a unitarian.

His confession, his creed, is the confession / creed of Judaism: the Shema.

 

[Matthias]

“The New Testament writers are really quite careful at this point. Jesus is not the God of Israel. He is not the Father. He is not Yahweh.”

(James D.G. Dunn, Did The First Christians Worship Jesus?, p. 142)

Jesus is not the God of Israel. The God of Israel is the God of Jesus.

 

[Fred]

If one knows that Jesus has today been given authority on earth and in heaven we surely can pray and give honor to him, although it is different and subordinate to his Father.

Thanks for answering my question.

How is praying to Jesus subordinate compared with praying to the Father?

 

[Matthias]

“Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from its teaching. It therefore developed against constant unitarian, or at least anti-Trinitarian opposition, and it was never wholly victorious. … It must be reemphasized that the concept of God, understood as a single, undivided personality, precedes the Nicean notion of a Deity defined as three persons sharing one essence. Unitarianism is the early norm, Trinitarianism a later deviation from this norm. It is therefore more proper to speak of Trinitarianism as an anti-Unitarian movement than of Unitarianism as an anti-Trinitarian mode of theological speculation.”

(Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Vol. 27, p. 294L)

 

[Fred]

“The New Testament writers are really quite careful at this point. Jesus is not the God of Israel. He is not the Father. He is not Yahweh.”

(James D.G. Dunn, Did The First Christians Worship Jesus?, p. 142)

Thanks for quoting Dunn.


"at the time of Jesus the practice of worship would have included at least 4 elements:
1 Prayer was obviously at the heart of worship as it I today, with the prayers of adoration, of penitence and confession, of petition and intercession, all indicating the dependence of the inferior (creature) upon the all-powerful Creator, Saviour and Lord." (pages 30)

And by your own admission you pray to Jesus.

Prayer is to..."the all-powerful Creator."

 

[civic]

Thanks for quoting Dunn.


"at the time of Jesus the practice of worship would have included at least 4 elements:
1 Prayer was obviously at the heart of worship as it I today, with the prayers of adoration, of penitence and confession, of petition and intercession, all indicating the dependence of the inferior (creature) upon the all-powerful Creator, Saviour and Lord." (pages 30)

And by your own admission you pray to Jesus.

Prayer is to..."the all-powerful Creator."

its called the fallacy of quote mining.

 

[Matthias]

“It is impossible to document what we now call orthodoxy in the first two centuries of Christianity; heresy often appears more prominently, so much so that orthodoxy looks like a reaction to it. But we can document orthodoxy for all the centuries since then - in other words, for close to seventeen centuries of the church’s existence.”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p. 5)

A key to his terms:

Orthodoxy -> trinitarianism

Heresy -> unitarianism

Unitarianism preceded trinitarianism in the Church. (See post #35.)

 

[Fred]

Orthodoxy -> trinitarianism

Heresy -> unitarianism

I see.

 

[Matthias]

“… from the unitary monotheism of Israel to the trinitarianism of the Council of Chalcedon. The difference is symbolized by the transition from the prayer Shema Yisroel, of Deuteronomy 6:4 (‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord…’), to the confession of the Athanasian Creed, ‘We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity.’”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies, p. 431)

Unitary monotheism of Israel - > the Shema

* transition period *

Trinitarianism -> The Council of Chalcedon

The unitary monotheism of Israel is the unitary monotheism of Jesus.