The Potter and the Clay

Nowhere is there any mention of pharaoh being made a vessel of wrath from the womb

You are reading your theology into the passage
Nowhere does it deny it, God raised exegeirō him up, meaning gave him existence, where did that begin ?

The word means:

I have raised thee up into life, caused thee to exist, or I have raised thee to a public position, set thee up as king

This word encompasses his entire existence and all experiences so God could destroy him in the red sea
 
In Romans 9:22, the "objects of wrath" are individuals or groups who, through their persistent rebellion and sin, become vehicles of God’s justice. However, their role as "prepared for destruction" does not necessarily imply that God predestined them to damnation without consideration of their choices.
 
You all confused sir, no choices to be made for salvation anywhere in scripture
Man possesses freedom of will (both the liberty and the ability) to choose his destiny, he can choose either: to be saved or lost.

Choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah Joshua 24:15

The people responded by making a choice. They, too, would serve Jehovah, and so Joshua declared:

Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you Jehovah to serve him (Josh. 24:21, 22).
 
Man possesses freedom of will (both the liberty and the ability) to choose his destiny, he can choose either: to be saved or lost.

Choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah Joshua 24:15

The people responded by making a choice. They, too, would serve Jehovah, and so Joshua declared:
Mans destiny was chosen for him b4 he was born, b4 he was even conceived in his mother.
 
So God created a portion of mankind in order to punish them for their sins. They would never be saved.

False.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]

Compare with Rom 1

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Point being, people don't become a vessel of wrath randomly, but after God's longsuffering enduring patience.
 
Its a matter of Gods Sovereignty that some will never be saved, and shall be confirmed in the worship of the beast, since their names were not written in the Lambs book of life Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
You are confused.

The verse is about the foreknowledge of God, knowing everything in advance up to the point of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
Mans destiny was chosen for him b4 he was born, b4 he was even conceived in his mother.
Your thinking about Robots.
abell46s-reface.gif

But for mankind, Joshua 24:21 underscores the importance of making a personal and deliberate choice to follow God. This verse teaches that faith is not just a matter of heritage or tradition but requires a conscious decision from each individual.

God’s love is shown in His willingness to continually invite His people to choose Him.

We love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19

His love has kept us by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ from condemnation—that kind of life-saving love is what He has showed us.
 
@ProDeo

No its true, God created them as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, like He did pharoah

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]

Compare with Rom 1

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Point being, people don't become a vessel of wrath randomly, but for a reason, after God's longsuffering enduring patience.

Same counts for Pharaoh.
 
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]

Compare with Rom 1

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Point being, people don't become a vessel of wrath randomly, but for a reason, after God's longsuffering enduring patience.

Same counts for Pharaoh.
, God created them as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, like He did pharoah
 
THE POTTER AND THE CLAY

The illustration is a common one in the Old Testament, and it is reasonable that Paul’s use of it should be colored by its usage there.

It occurs in Jeremiah 18:1–10. Jeremiah, in great despondency over the demoralization of Israel, was bidden to go down to the potter’s house. The potter shaped a vessel on the wheel, but, owing to some defect in the clay, the vessel was marred. So the potter made, of the same lump, another vessel different from that which he had at first designed. He did not throw away the clay, but his skill prevailed to triumph over the defect, and to make a vessel, perhaps inferior to the first, yet still capable of use.

So God had designed Israel for a high destiny, a royal nation, a peculiar people; but Israel defeated this destiny by its idolatries and rebellions. Hence God made it another and baser vessel. “The pressure of the potter’s hand was to be harder. Shame and suffering and exile—their land left desolate, and they themselves weeping by the waters of Babylon—this was the process to which they were now called on to submit.”

The potter exercised his power by making the vessel unto dishonor which he originally designed unto honor. Side by side with the potter’s power over the clay, there goes, figuratively speaking, in the prophet’s representation, the power of change and choice in the lump. “Ye are in my hand as this clay in the hand of the potter. If, when I am about to degrade the nation, they turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil. On the contrary, when I am planning for an honorable and powerful kingdom, if the people turn to evil, then I will repent of the good wherewith I said that I would benefit them.”

Israel has a power of choice. If it is made into a vessel unto dishonor, the fault is its own, but repentance and submission may change the issue.


Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament
 
THE POTTER AND THE CLAY

The illustration is a common one in the Old Testament, and it is reasonable that Paul’s use of it should be colored by its usage there.

It occurs in Jeremiah 18:1–10. Jeremiah, in great despondency over the demoralization of Israel, was bidden to go down to the potter’s house. The potter shaped a vessel on the wheel, but, owing to some defect in the clay, the vessel was marred. So the potter made, of the same lump, another vessel different from that which he had at first designed. He did not throw away the clay, but his skill prevailed to triumph over the defect, and to make a vessel, perhaps inferior to the first, yet still capable of use.

So God had designed Israel for a high destiny, a royal nation, a peculiar people; but Israel defeated this destiny by its idolatries and rebellions. Hence God made it another and baser vessel. “The pressure of the potter’s hand was to be harder. Shame and suffering and exile—their land left desolate, and they themselves weeping by the waters of Babylon—this was the process to which they were now called on to submit.”

The potter exercised his power by making the vessel unto dishonor which he originally designed unto honor. Side by side with the potter’s power over the clay, there goes, figuratively speaking, in the prophet’s representation, the power of change and choice in the lump. “Ye are in my hand as this clay in the hand of the potter. If, when I am about to degrade the nation, they turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil. On the contrary, when I am planning for an honorable and powerful kingdom, if the people turn to evil, then I will repent of the good wherewith I said that I would benefit them.”

Israel has a power of choice. If it is made into a vessel unto dishonor, the fault is its own, but repentance and submission may change the issue.


Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament
, God created them as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, like He did pharoah
 
11 “So now then, say, please, to the people of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says Yahweh, “Look, I am preparing evil against you, and I am planning a plan against you. Please turn back, each one from his evil way, and walk rightly in your ways and your deeds.” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It is hopeless, for we will go after our own plans, and each one of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Is it not fascinating that, like Romans 3:10-12, we once again have an alleged 'FREE WILL' that could make ANY CHOICE, but which God proclaims WILL make only the evil choice? [100%] How many "coincidences" before it stops being a coincidence and we begin to suspect that TOTAL INABILITY might be a real thing? That phrases like "slave to sin" are more than just words. That "dead in our trespasses" might be more than hyperbole.

God said IF they do this ... then announced but they WILL DO THAT! We are called to choose "God", but we WILL hide from God (just like Adam did and just like John 3:19-20 says we will). So God must call us to himself (just like God did for Adam and just like John 6:44 says God does for us).
 
God created them as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, like He did pharoah
You are saying God created Israel as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction?

Israel holds a special place in the Bible as the chosen people of God. Throughout Scripture, we see how God selected Israel to be His own and to carry out His purposes in the world. This unique relationship shows God’s love and commitment to His people. Understanding why Israel is chosen helps us appreciate the rich history and promises found in the Bible. Jesus comes to us from the bloodline of King David, a Israelite.

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.” – Deuteronomy 7:6

This passage highlights God’s sovereign choice of Israel as holy and treasured. Their identity is rooted in God’s love and purpose. We are reminded of the importance of maintaining our identity in Christ.
 
, God created them as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, like He did pharoah
This is no longer a discussion, snipping all, and repeat the above to all who address you.

So, you may have the last word, but not after :

1. Paul in Romans chapter one does not say something else in Romans 9.

2. Pharaoh did become a reprobate AFTER God's longsuffeing patience.

3. Check Pharaoh and what he did to the Hebrews, slavery, killing babies.

4. Start reading Exodus 1:1

5. God always gave Israel time to repent before judgement, same for Pharaoh.

6. Your view of God is wrong.
 
Alec Motyer, The Message of Exodus: The Days of Our Pilgrimage
This is a very good book on Exodus.

From the introduction.

Abraham and his ever-expanding family were uniquely favoured people. He had known the call of God (Gen. 12:1), the divine promise of innumerable descendants and of a land to live in (Gen. 17:5, 8). His family, too, enjoyed this favoured spiritual status with its good earthly prospects (Gen. 17:7–8).

At the opening of the book of Exodus, Abraham himself was, of course, long dead (Gen. 25:8), and his family, now organized under the names of the twelve sons of Abraham’s grandson Jacob, was resident in Egypt. Over the years it had expanded considerably and enjoyed the good life under the patronage of Joseph, Pharaoh’s deputy (Gen. 41:39–46). With the death of Joseph and a change of government, however, the good times were over (1:6, 8). The Egyptian authorities had become pathologically nervous about this increase in the immigrant population and determined, first, on a policy of persecution and then ethnic cleansing and genocide (1:9–11, 22).

What had become, then, we might ask ourselves, of Israel’s uniqueness, their favoured position before God, the promises made to Abraham and the prospect of their own land?


1. Abram and the forecast of history (Gen. 15:13)


When the Lord promised the land of Canaan to Abram and his descendants (Gen. 15:7), every part of it was already occupied by other peoples. It would not have been consistent with the righteousness of God if he had simply taken this land from its rightful inhabitants and given it to someone else. We read, therefore, that the Lord proposed to give the Canaanite nations a four-hundred-year probation period, and only if they failed that probation would their land pass out of their possession (Gen. 15:16). In the fullness of time the ousting of the Canaanites was accomplished by Joshua and his troops, and although we recoil, as surely we must, from the horrendous judgment then inflicted on the Canaanites (e.g. Josh. 6:21), we must, nevertheless, be sure to see it in the light of its Genesis background and say that the Judge of all the earth has done right (Gen. 18:25). A genuine, even generous, probation had been allowed, but four hundred years saw only a steady decline into atrocious corruption, until the knife of the divine surgeon was the only recourse. Thus far the providence of God can be seen to be working along the lines of his perfect justice.

Genesis 15:13 also forecasts the future of Israel with, surely to our astonishment, four hundred years of exile, including oppression and servitude. Neither in Genesis nor elsewhere in the Bible is this prolonged adversity explained. There is never any suggestion that this banishment to Egypt was because of sin—indeed, sin does not feature as a factor in Israel’s consciousness until the episode of the golden calf in chapter 32. At a later date the holy anger of the Lord deprived his people of the Promised Land and banished them to Babylon (e.g. 2 Kgs 21:10–15), but nothing like this is said about their sojourn in Egypt.

Was it, then, a case of ‘just the way the cookie crumbles’? Earthly life is, after all, a chancy affair, and although it would indeed have been ‘nice’ if Israel could have awaited its inheritance in security and prosperity, that was not the way it worked out. Without a Bible to teach us, what other view could we take but this? With the Bible, however, the idea that ‘history’ is simply the lucky or unlucky spin of the wheel is ruled out. It is always first and foremost ‘his story’, and what happened in Israel’s case was all deliberate and part of a greater plan. Once before, the Lord had stepped in to rescue Abram from Egypt, where he had gone without permission (Gen. 12:10–20), and on another occasion he had expressly forbidden Isaac to take the Egyptian road (Gen. 26:1–2), but Abraham’s grandson Jacob had been specifically directed to take his whole entourage and move southwards to Egypt, even though what ultimately lay ahead was slavery (Gen. 46:1–4).


2. A real mystery

The Bible will not allow us to say that Jacob ‘got his guidance wrong’, though that might well seem a logical deduction from the way events panned out. The opposite is in fact true, for Jacob went to Egypt by the will and word of God, with loving assurances that he would see his long-lost son Joseph and with promises of coming greatness and future restoration ringing in his ears (Gen. 46:1–4). Furthermore, he went into a situation where the grace of God had anticipated his needs by sending Joseph ahead (Gen. 50:20; Ps. 105:17–23). He had, however, also embarked on a journey that led eventually to slavery, suffering and the attempted extinction of his descendants (Exod. 1:8–14, 22), and during those long, long years of distress heaven above them remained silent. Even when the promise of rescue was finally fulfilled (Exod. 12:40–42), no explanation was ever offered of the years of pain and loss.

This is the mystery of the divine government of history, whether on a national, domestic or individual level: the great and loving God is in control, and because he is truly sovereign he works out his purposes in his way, not ours (Isa. 55:8). He offers no explanations, but grants his people a sufficient insight into his ways, his character, his intentions and his changeless faithfulness so that, however dark the day, they can live by faith and be sustained by hope.


3. The covenant God


The particular revelation of the divine character that spans from Genesis into Exodus is expressed by the idea of the covenant. In its typical biblical use, covenant means ‘promise’ and in particular a promise that does not need to be made but which arises from the free decision and will of the promise-maker and which is bestowed without merit, deserving or bargaining on the part of the recipient.

It was in this way that the Lord made his covenant with Abram (Gen. 17): the promise was personal (v. 5), domestic (v. 6), spiritual (v. 7) and territorial (v. 8). It was ‘sealed’ to Abraham by the sign of circumcision (vv. 10–11) so that ever after he was literally a ‘marked man’, the man to whom the Lord had made his covenanted promises and who carried the sign and proof of it in his own body.

Genesis 17:1–2 needs to be guarded from misunderstanding as it might be taken to mean, ‘If you walk before me and be blameless, then I will make my covenant with you’. This would make the covenant appear as a divine response to Abram’s commitment, even a reward for the perfection of his ‘walk’. This cannot be so because the covenant between God and Abraham had already been formally inaugurated many years before (Gen. 15:18). Also, the wording in Genesis 17:2 does not express the idea of inauguration but rather confirmation. A literal translation would be, ‘and I will place my covenant’, an expression which signifies the covenant coming into active operation as the stated relationship between its maker and its recipient. Abraham’s life of fellowship with the Lord was not the pre-condition of the covenant but rather the response by which he entered into the promised blessings. From beginning to end, God’s covenant relationship with his people is based on his grace and not their merits.


4. The mainspring of Exodus

The covenant is the mainspring from which the action of Exodus flows. In 1:8–22 we enter in various ways into the miseries of Israel in Egypt, but at 2:23 we reach the point where their groaning became praying: (lit.) ‘they groaned because of their slavery and screamed aloud, and their cry for help rose up to God, and God heard and God remembered his covenant with Abraham’.

The whole story of Exodus is a covenant narrative. The God who pledged himself to Abraham and his descendants remained the faithful God. He had made promises and intended to honour them, and when his moment came, honour them he did. He claimed Israel as his own (4:22), brought them out of Egyptian bondage (12:41–42), succoured and cared for them as a loving covenant God would all through the long wilderness years (Deut. 8:2–4) and finally gave them the land which, centuries before, he had pledged to their fathers (Gen. 15:7; 26:3; 28:13; Josh. 21:43–45).

Did the suffering people sustain themselves by remembering these promises through the darkness of slavery? We do not know. That part of their story is not recorded. What we do see, however, from the first chapter of Exodus and the nervousness of the Egyptians, is that the Hebrews had managed somehow to retain their separate identity. We also learn that when Moses came to them in the name of the God of their fathers and of the Lord (3:13–14; 4:31), he was welcomed by them as one speaking of a God they knew.


Alec Motyer, The Message of Exodus: The Days of Our Pilgrimage, ed. Alec Motyer and Derek Tidball, The Bible Speaks Today (Nottingham, England: Inter-Varsity Press, 2005), 17–20.
 
You are saying God created Israel as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction?

Israel holds a special place in the Bible as the chosen people of God. Throughout Scripture, we see how God selected Israel to be His own and to carry out His purposes in the world. This unique relationship shows God’s love and commitment to His people. Understanding why Israel is chosen helps us appreciate the rich history and promises found in the Bible. Jesus comes to us from the bloodline of King David, a Israelite.

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.” – Deuteronomy 7:6

This passage highlights God’s sovereign choice of Israel as holy and treasured. Their identity is rooted in God’s love and purpose. We are reminded of the importance of maintaining our identity in Christ.
God created them as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, like He did pharoah See Rom 9:6-24
 
This is no longer a discussion, snipping all, and repeat the above to all who address you.

So, you may have the last word, but not after :

1. Paul in Romans chapter one does not say something else in Romans 9.

2. Pharaoh did become a reprobate AFTER God's longsuffeing patience.

3. Check Pharaoh and what he did to the Hebrews, slavery, killing babies.

4. Start reading Exodus 1:1

5. God always gave Israel time to repent before judgement, same for Pharaoh.

6. Your view of God is wrong.
God created them as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, like He did pharoah See Rom 9:6-24
 
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