The Potter and the Clay

There is a lot of that going around. :ROFLMAO:
  • Some people want the potter to hate His clay [setting aside the spiritual dimension for a moment, why would a human potter hate any lump of clay?]
  • Some people want the clay to control the hand of the potter [setting aside the spiritual dimension for a moment, when has the clay ever controlled the human potter?]
From where I sit, God is God and it is the POTTER [God] that is in charge.
I agree with the above. :)
 
I agree with the above. :)

When someone says that "God is God" in the sculpting of the clay, they are ignoring the obvious fact that God has chosen clay for His purpose. When God could have chosen anything, He chose clay.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that the extraordinary power belongs to God and does not come from us.
2Co 4:8 We are experiencing trouble on every side, but are not crushed; we are perplexed, but not driven to despair;
2Co 4:9 we are persecuted, but not abandoned; we are knocked down, but not destroyed,
2Co 4:10 always carrying around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be made visible in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we who are alive are constantly being handed over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be made visible in our mortal body.
 
Just for the record, what makes the RSV a "reformed/calvinist" translation?

What is the RSV - GotQuestions?

Revised Standard Version – History
The Revised Standard Version (RSV) is an English translation of the Bible published in the mid-20th century. It traces its history to William Tyndale’s New Testament translation of 1525. The RSV is an authorized revision of the American Standard Version of 1901 and is one of four translations that have the ASV as its basis. In 1928, the copyright to the ASV was acquired by the International Council of Religious Education (ICRE), which formed a panel of 32 scholars and charged them with the task of revising the ASV. In 1950, the ICRE merged with the Federal Council of Churches to form the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA. The former ICRE became the new Council’s Division of Christian Education, and the NCC became the official sponsor of the RSV. In 1957, at the request of the Episcopal Church in the United States of America, the Deuterocanonical books were added to the RSV. Minor modifications to the RSV text were authorized in 1959 and completed for the 1962 printings.​
In 1965, the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition was published with a revised edition published by Ignatius Press in 2006. In 1971, the RSV Bible was re-released with the Second Edition of the Translation of the New Testament. In 1982, Reader’s Digest published a special edition of the RSV that was billed as a condensed edition of the text. In 1989, the National Council of Churches released a full-scale revision to the RSV called the New Revised Standard Version. It was the first major version to use gender-neutral language, and drew even more criticism from conservative Christians than did its 1952 predecessor. The RSV remains a favorite translation for many Christians. However, RSV Bibles are hard to find, except in second-hand shops and churches that used it, because the NCC prefers to print the New Revised Standard Version.​
Revised Standard Version – Translation Method
The RSV translation panel used the 17th edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek text for the New Testament and the traditional Hebrew Masoretic Text for the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah, they sometimes followed readings found in the newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls. The translation method utilized in the RSV is described as a combination of formal (word for word) and dynamic (thought for thought) equivalence. The translators of the RSV reverted to the use of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), used the archaic pronouns and verbs (thee, thy, hast, hath, etc.)—but only for God and not for humans—and followed the latest Greek text available, where earlier versions relied on the Textus Receptus.​
Revised Standard Version – Pros and Cons
Overall, the Revised Standard Version was a good English Bible translation in its time. The RSV, though, can no longer be said to be a modern English translation. While it is more "modern" than the KJV, it does not read as English is spoken today. The RSV is a good balance between formal equivalency and dynamic equivalency, more so than its successor, the NRSV.​
Revised Standard Version – Sample Verses
John 1:1, 14 – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.”​
John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”​
John 8:58 – “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’”​
Ephesians 2:8-9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.”​
Titus 2:13 – “awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”​

"Got questions" is your authority?

The RSV excludes Greek OT readings such as Jeremiah 17:9 from the third century BC.....

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deep above all else and so is man, who shall understand him.

So much for total depravity.
 
, you making all this up
Nope it's in the Bible.

The Jews Reject Jesus​

22The Festival of the Dedication of the Temple took place in Jerusalem during the winter. 23 Jesus was walking on Solomon’s porch in the temple courtyard.

24The Jews surrounded him. They asked him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25Jesus answered them, “I’ve told you, but you don’t believe me.

John 10:22-25​

Accusation of Threatening the Temple: During His trial, false witnesses came forward to accuse Jesus of threatening to destroy the temple. Mark 14:57-58 records, "Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against Him: 'We heard Him say, "I will destroy this man-made temple, and in three days I will build another that is made without hands."'" This misrepresentation of Jesus' prophetic statement about His death and resurrection was used to incite fear and anger against Him.

5. Accusation Before Pilate: The religious leaders brought Jesus before Pontius Pilate, accusing Him of subverting the nation and claiming to be a king, thus challenging Roman authority. In Luke 23:2, they stated, "We found this man subverting our nation, forbidding payment of taxes to Caesar, and proclaiming Himself to be Christ, a king." Despite these charges, Pilate found no basis for a sentence of death, recognizing the innocence of Jesus.
 
Nope it's in the Bible.

The Jews Reject Jesus​

22The Festival of the Dedication of the Temple took place in Jerusalem during the winter. 23 Jesus was walking on Solomon’s porch in the temple courtyard.

24The Jews surrounded him. They asked him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25Jesus answered them, “I’ve told you, but you don’t believe me.

John 10:22-25​

Accusation of Threatening the Temple: During His trial, false witnesses came forward to accuse Jesus of threatening to destroy the temple. Mark 14:57-58 records, "Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against Him: 'We heard Him say, "I will destroy this man-made temple, and in three days I will build another that is made without hands."'" This misrepresentation of Jesus' prophetic statement about His death and resurrection was used to incite fear and anger against Him.

5. Accusation Before Pilate: The religious leaders brought Jesus before Pontius Pilate, accusing Him of subverting the nation and claiming to be a king, thus challenging Roman authority. In Luke 23:2, they stated, "We found this man subverting our nation, forbidding payment of taxes to Caesar, and proclaiming Himself to be Christ, a king." Despite these charges, Pilate found no basis for a sentence of death, recognizing the innocence of Jesus.
You just discombobulating scripture friend
 
@TomL



Yes He did, thats the reason why pharoah was given being to exist, th God by him specifically would make His Power known [in his destruction] via the red sea Rom 9:17-19

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The words raised thee up is the greek word exegeirō:
  1. to arouse, raise up (from sleep)
  2. to rouse up, stir up, incite

I have raised thee up into life, caused thee to exist, or I have raised thee to a public position, set thee up as king

John Gill writes:
Um no

You assume raised him up refers to his birth rather than being raised up to the position of pharoah



ἐξεγείρω (exegeirō), vb. raise up. fut.act. ἐξεγερῶ; aor.act. ἐξήγειρά; aor.pass. ἐξηγέρθην; perf.mid. ἐξεγήγερται. Hebrew equivalent: עור 2 (32). LTW ἐξεγείρω (Resurrection).
Verb Usage
1. to exalt ⇔ raise up† — to exalt someone, conceived of as lifting the person up. See also ὑψόω. Related Topic: Raise Up.
Ro 9:17 Εἰς αὐτὸ τοῦτο ἐξήγειρά σε ὅπως ἐνδείξωμαι ἐν σοὶ τὴν
2. to resurrect (emphatic)† — to resurrect as waking up, perhaps in a more extensive (with a greater number of objects) or intensive manner (with greater power).
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).


He was exalted to the position of Pharoah
 
Um no

You assume raised him up refers to his birth rather than being raised up to the position of pharoah



ἐξεγείρω (exegeirō), vb. raise up. fut.act. ἐξεγερῶ; aor.act. ἐξήγειρά; aor.pass. ἐξηγέρθην; perf.mid. ἐξεγήγερται. Hebrew equivalent: עור 2 (32). LTW ἐξεγείρω (Resurrection).
Verb Usage
1. to exalt ⇔ raise up† — to exalt someone, conceived of as lifting the person up. See also ὑψόω. Related Topic: Raise Up.
Ro 9:17 Εἰς αὐτὸ τοῦτο ἐξήγειρά σε ὅπως ἐνδείξωμαι ἐν σοὶ τὴν
2. to resurrect (emphatic)† — to resurrect as waking up, perhaps in a more extensive (with a greater number of objects) or intensive manner (with greater power).
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).


He was exalted to the position of Pharoah
Um Yes, he was given being in order to be destroyed, and to be an example on how all vessels of wrath will be delt with from the womb.
 
yes adding to scripture all of the time reading his manmade doctrines into the bible.
Indeed

God does not arbitrarily make men a vessel of wrath or a vessel for honorary use

2 Timothy 2:21 (LEB) — 21 Therefore, if someone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

The Jews became vessels of wrath because

Romans 9:30–32 (LEB) — 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness—even the righteousness that is by faith. 31 But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, did not attain to the law. 32 Why that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes people to stumble,
 
Indeed

God does not arbitrarily make men a vessel of wrath or a vessel for honorary use

2 Timothy 2:21 (LEB) — 21 Therefore, if someone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

The Jews became vessels of wrath because

Romans 9:30–32 (LEB) — 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness—even the righteousness that is by faith. 31 But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, did not attain to the law. 32 Why that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes people to stumble,
Excellent passage which contradicts the reformed view of Roman’s 9.
 
There is a lot of that going around. :ROFLMAO:
  • Some people want the potter to hate His clay [setting aside the spiritual dimension for a moment, why would a human potter hate any lump of clay?]
  • Some people want the clay to control the hand of the potter [setting aside the spiritual dimension for a moment, when has the clay ever controlled the human potter?]
From where I sit, God is God and it is the POTTER [God] that is in charge. Romans 9 does say that God "prepared" some vessels for wrath to display the glory of His mercy on other vessels of "honor" ... so I take it as it stands without the need to read more or less into it. The POTTER is the POTTER and both vessels serve His purposes. Like Pharaoh and Moses ... both vessels existed to bring glory to God, but the story was always about what GOD did!

So, too, the saved and lost both exist to reveal the GLORY of God's Power and Justice and Love and Mercy.
Some assume the clay that is marred in the hands of the potter is done so by the potter but the original reference does not suit that scenario. The fault here is with the clay not the potter

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (LEB) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, 2 “Stand up and go down to the house of the potter, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the house of the potter and look, there he was doing work at the potter’s wheels. 4 And the vessel that he was making with the clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter, so he made again another vessel, as it was right in the eyes of the potter to make. 5 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 6 “Like this potter, am I not able to do to you, O house of Israel?” declares Yahweh. “Look, like the clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 One moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to uproot, and to tear down, and to destroy it. 8 But if that nation turns back from its evil that I have threatened against it, then I will relent concerning the disaster that I planned to do to it. 9 And the next moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant it. 10 But if it does evil in my sight, to not listen to my voice, then I will relent concerning the good that I said I would do to it. 11 “So now then, say, please, to the people of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says Yahweh, “Look, I am preparing evil against you, and I am planning a plan against you. Please turn back, each one from his evil way, and walk rightly in your ways and your deeds.” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It is hopeless, for we will go after our own plans, and each one of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
 
Back
Top Bottom