The misuse and abuse of John 17:3 by Unitarians to promote Unitarianism.

[Johann]

I do not fear for your soul.
I am 100% sure God loves you
I am 100% sure you love Him, so
I am 100% sure you are already with Him and will be with Him forever.



Dear readers:

I do believe in the literal crucifixion of Jesus.

But my point is not whether doctrine X is right or wrong.
My point is that demanding a person to adhere to doctrine X to receive the forgiveness of God is unsupported, biblically and logically... and can lead to moral wickedness, by sending billions of people from all religions to eternal physical and mental torture.

Correction, @Pancho Frijoles, no one is demanding anything from you. You may believe in a literal crucifixion, but you do not hold to a literal resurrection of Jesus, my friend. I sense that you may be here to try and persuade others to adopt your bloodless religion.

If you wish to appeal to the @Administrator, feel free to do so. However, you will remain in error by rejecting the core doctrines of the Christian faith.

Search Bahai.org

The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

www.bahai.org

Shalom.

J.

 

[synergy]

Your curiosity may be disappointed on that subject.
It's nothing but the same old story, you know... God is just merciful, merciful, merciful, merciful.... a thing some evangelicals find too boring to discuss or preach.

Just like medical cures and vaccines don't just materialize out of thin air, the same can be said about spiritual cures. So it is boring to live in an Islamic make-believe spiritual world where spiritual cures materialize out of thin air

I don't know about that account. Your memory may be better than mine.
I do remember, though, another account: a seraphim (which is a being similar to a flying snake) atoning the sins of Isaiah by touching his lips with a live coal.

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.” (Isaiah 6:6,7)

Do Jews believe that sins can be cured by flying snakes using live coals?

I don't know about Jews but that account is rather reminiscent of what Christians call the Eucharist, which is based on the Life of Christ including the Cross.

 

[TomL]

This is fascinating. I ask you questions and show you undeniable truths about this world's religions who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and you continue as if I didn't ask you anything, and obsess instead, about a kind man that doesn't claim to be a Christian at all.

The Jesus of the Bible once said;

Matt. 7: 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

It seems it isn't enough to know the beam exists in your eye. Or confess the beam in your eye. Jesus said to remove it, cast it out. I believe this is because it is the Beam that causes men not to see clearly, not the knowledge that the beam exists.

The question was

but why do you imagine it is rare that anyone holds as important the works of Jesus?

Do you think you can assume it without proof?

BTW personal kindness does not save.

 

[TomL]

Are you telling us that a person must pray to Jesus in order to be considered a Christian?

I am telling you what scripture states

John 5:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

and if you do not do it you do not honoe the Father

That's not what Paul taught.
Paul could have seized the opportunity to indicate that men can have an intercessor before God through a God-man, called Jesus.
Paul didn't do that. Not just he didn't do that... he chose to use the term "Man".

This also is Paul

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Moses was an effective intercessor before God. Moses didn't need to be a God-man to do that.

God cannot be a man. A man cannot be God.
They are mutually exclusive categories.
There have never been god-men, except in pagan mythologies.

Moses cannot save you but Jesus can

Acts 4:12 (LEB) — 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among people by which we must be saved.”

Not even Baha'i fairytales

 

[synergy]

Dear readers:

I do believe in the literal crucifixion of Jesus.

But my point is not whether doctrine X is right or wrong.
My point is that demanding a person to adhere to doctrine X to receive the forgiveness of God is unsupported, biblically and logically... and can lead to moral wickedness, by sending billions of people from all religions to eternal physical and mental torture.

Of course, the common person doesn't need to know all the facts of God's redemptive history to be saved but that does not mean that we can possess a naive make-believe view of spiritual reality as Muslims do.

We've already discussed how medical cures are analogous to spiritual cures. Without Health Researchers and Professionals responsibly doing their job then there is no vaccination to be had, let alone any discussion to be had with Patients.

It's incumbent and the responsibility of those in charge of administering the vaccination to know about the vaccine's development, effects, and the patient's historical records before administering the vaccine. Responsible Health Professionals do not do it naively nor blindly. Those same principles can be applied to the spiritual realm.

What is naive and void of spiritual reality is the Islamic idea that the Redemptive History of God is void of the transformative restoration of the relationship between humanity and God, achieved through Christ's Incarnation, Sacrifice, Resurrection, and Ascension, that is the basis of our forgiveness.

 

[TomL]

I do not fear for your soul.
I am 100% sure God loves you
I am 100% sure you love Him, so
I am 100% sure you are already with Him and will be with Him forever.



Dear readers:

I do believe in the literal crucifixion of Jesus.

But my point is not whether doctrine X is right or wrong.
My point is that demanding a person to adhere to doctrine X to receive the forgiveness of God is unsupported, biblically and logically... and can lead to moral wickedness, by sending billions of people from all religions to eternal physical and mental torture.

Actually it is your statement which is not supported biblically

John 8:24Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
John 6:53 (LEB) — 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves!

John 17:3 (LEB) — 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 14:6 (LEB) — 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Just like medical cures and vaccines don't just materialize out of thin air, the same can be said about spiritual cures. So it is boring to live in an Islamic make-believe spiritual world where spiritual cures materialize out of thin air

God forgiveness materializes out of thin wind.
A wind that comes from nowhere and everywhere, and goes nowhere and everywhere.

I don't know about Jews but that account is rather reminiscent of what Christians call the Eucharist, which is based on the Life of Christ including the Cross.

How is that?
In the account of the seraphim there is no blood, no payment or ransom, and no need to believe in any particular doctrine… just Isaiah’s acknowledgement of his own incapacity.
The episode is reminiscent of what you believed in your childhood: God forgives because he is merciful with those who show humbleness.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Actually it is your statement which is not supported biblically

John 8:24Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
John 6:53 (LEB) — 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves!

John 17:3 (LEB) — 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 14:6 (LEB) — 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

None of those verses refer to the need to adhere to doctrines.
Those verses refer to living the life of Christ. If any pastor has taught you otherwise, he is wrong.
If you were really convinced that the Bible requests adhering to an orthodox theology in order to escape eternal torment, you would have already thrown your Bible away.
We can debate on soteriology if you wish.

 

[synergy]

God forgiveness materializes out of thin wind.
A wind that comes from nowhere and everywhere, and goes nowhere and everywhere.

Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit only after the Cross and his Ascension. So that "wind" you mentioned is of a different spirit than the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit only after the Cross and his Ascension. So that "wind" you mentioned is of a different spirit than the Holy Spirit.

If you read your Bible carefully you would have solid arguments in a debate.
By the same token, If you knew and value your own religion, you would be able to understand and value other religions.

The spirit of God has been active since the creation and the need to be born from the spirit was mentioned by Jesus to Nicodemus before his crucifixion, and Jesus made no connection between being born from the spirit and a blood atonement as a requisite.

People have always needed the mercy of God, and God has extended that mercy without the need of any ransom, blood, or intellectual assent to the deity or resurrection of Christ.

That is a biblical fact.
Placing conditions to God’s mercy that Jesus Himself never placed is wrong and it is evil.

 

[synergy]

If you read your Bible carefully you would have solid arguments in a debate.

I do have solid arguments in a debate. It's Jesus' pouring out of the Holy Spirit only after the Cross and his Ascension.

By the same token, If you knew and value your own religion, you would be able to understand and value other religions.

What type of person do you think values the cut-throat Quran verses? A sweet kind hearted person?

The spirit of God has been active since the creation and the need to be born from the spirit was mentioned by Jesus to Nicodemus before his crucifixion, and Jesus made no connection between being born from the spirit and a blood atonement as a requisite.

Water was mentioned (John 3:5), baptismal water to be more extact, and what do you think baptism signifies? The Cross, Burial, and Resurrection of our Lord. There's your connection to the Cross.

People have always needed the mercy of God, and God has extended that mercy without the need of any ransom, blood, or intellectual assent to the deity or resurrection of Christ.

That is a biblical fact.
Placing requirements for God’s mercy Jesus Himself never placed is wrong and it is evil.

Again, the common person doesn't need to know all the facts of God's redemptive history to be saved but that does not mean that we can possess a naive make-believe view of spiritual reality as Muslims do.

We've already discussed how medical cures are analogous to spiritual cures. Without Health Researchers and Professionals responsibly doing their job then there is no vaccination to be had, let alone any discussion to be had with Patients.

It's incumbent and the responsibility of those in charge of administering the vaccination to know about the vaccine's development, effects, and the patient's historical records before administering the vaccine. Responsible Health Professionals do not do it naively nor blindly. Those same principles can be applied to the spiritual realm.

What is naive and void of spiritual reality is the Islamic idea that the Redemptive History of God is void of the transformative restoration of the relationship between humanity and God, achieved through Christ's Incarnation, Sacrifice, Resurrection, and Ascension, that is the basis of our forgiveness.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Water was mentioned (John 3:5), baptismal water to be more extact, and what do you think baptism signifies? The Cross, Burial, and Resurrection of our Lord. There's your connection to the Cross.

The baptism is a symbol of our spiritual death and resurrection. A spiritual resurrection into a new life, that starts on this earth.
There is no inherent salvific power in a ritual.

Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Roman 6:4)

So, Jesus is not saying we need to believe in a physical resurrection to be forgiven by God.
Jesus is using the symbol of baptism to talk about newness of life. It is this newness of life (not a belief in physical resurrection or a blood atonement) which constitutes salvation.

Again, the common person doesn't need to know all the facts of God's redemptive history to be saved but that does not mean that we can possess a naive make-believe view of spiritual reality as Muslims do.

We MUST possess a naive view of the spiritual reality of forgiveness.
It is not only the view of Muslims and Baha’is. It is the same view that Jews had. The same view that Jesus had. The same view that you had as a child.
Be naive as a child. Remmeber what you learned about forgiveness.

We've already discussed how medical cures are analogous to spiritual cures. Without Health Researchers and Professionals responsibly doing their job then there is no vaccination to be had, let alone any discussion to be had with Patients.

It's incumbent and the responsibility of those in charge of administering the vaccination to know about the vaccine's development, effects, and the patient's historical records before administering the vaccine. Responsible Health Professionals do not do it naively nor blindly. Those same principles can be applied to the spiritual realm.

In the beaitiful analogy you propose, God is the physician, we are the patients, and the medicine is his grace.
The doctor does not require from patients to know the nuances of scientific development of the medicine.
He only requires patients to accept they need the medicine.

God never ever required any person to complete a quiz on Theology to be the subject of his grace.
Jews, Christians, Muslims and Bahais are forgiven upon the very same requirement: repentance.

What is naive and void of spiritual reality is the Islamic idea that the Redemptive History of God is void of the transformative restoration of the relationship between humanity and God, achieved through Christ's Incarnation, Sacrifice, Resurrection, and Ascension, that is the basis of our forgiveness.

What is devoid of spiritual reality is the belief that people are saved by their confessions and creeds.
That is superstition and ignorance, that false pastors use to retain control over the minds and pocket$ of their flocks.
Any demon can confess whatever we want to hear from them. Furthermore, any AI software can be programmed to do it.
Living a transformed life, however, is only possible by the action of the Spirit of God.

 

[synergy]

The baptism is a symbol of our spiritual death and resurrection. A spiritual resurrection into a new life, that starts on this earth.
There is no inherent salvific power in a ritual.

Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Roman 6:4)

So, Jesus is not saying we need to believe in a physical resurrection to be forgiven by God.
Jesus is using the symbol of baptism to talk about newness of life. It is this newness of life (not a belief in physical resurrection or a blood atonement) which constitutes salvation.

Looks like your presuppositions revolted against John 3:5.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 states a non-negotiable fact, not something you can dismiss as a nebulous symbol. One's entrance into the Kingdom of God is at stake here. I highly recommend you reread the verse.

We MUST possess a naive view of the spiritual reality of forgiveness.
It is not only the view of Muslims and Baha’is. It is the same view that Jews had. The same view that Jesus had. The same view that you had as a child.
Be naive as a child. Remmeber what you learned about forgiveness.

It is not the view that Jesus had. Jesus did not go to the Cross naively. He was sweating profusely thinking about it, as we all would.

In the beaitiful analogy you propose, God is the physician, we are the patients, and the medicine is his grace.
The doctor does not require from patients to know the nuances of scientific development of the medicine.
He only requires patients to accept they need the medicine.

God never ever required any person to complete a quiz on Theology to be the subject of his grace.
Jews, Christians, Muslims and Bahais are forgiven upon the very same requirement: repentance.

I wouldn't say that it was God who administered my baptism or the Lord's Supper. There was an actual Pastor who administered my baptism and administers the Lord's Supper Just like it's the Health Professionals duty to know about the vaccine's development, effects, and the patient's historical records before administering the vaccine, the Pastor is also responsible but in a spiritual sense.

Responsible Health Professionals do not do it naively nor blindly and neither should Pastors.

What is devoid of spiritual reality is the belief that people are saved by their confessions and creeds.
That is superstition and ignorance, that false pastors use to retain control over the minds and pocket$ of their flocks.
Any demon can confess whatever we want to hear from them. Furthermore, any AI software can be programmed to do it.

Beliefs (creeds) are vital if it's salvation that you seek:

(Matt Chapter 10)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Living a transformed life, however, is only possible by the action of the Spirit of God.

Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). Which Kingdom will you be entering?