The Eternal Son

[Red Baker]

@civic

This thread is not about His Deity or preexistence. It’s about Him being the Eternal Son ( 2nd Divine Person of the Trinity) not becoming a son in time via begetting/ begotten.

Well, face the truth, eternal sonship doctrine in essence denies Jesus' deity as the I AM THAT I AM; I do not care how you spin this, it still will come back to an eternally begotten god which is antichrist teachings, which I truly do not believe you want to go there, yet you are. You cannot escape not dealing with Jesus' deity and a eternally begotten god that does not exist in the scriptures, when addressing his Sonship. It has some very serious ramifications in believing in that false teaching, and those ramifications must be address.

I will make a post very soon, once more (not limiting myself to one) here in this thread.

You keep saying that Jesus is the SECOND person of the Trinity from eternity, yet the Word was God, period, without any qualifications. The Word was made flesh in the person of God's Son who was BORN IN TIME from Mary's womb....THAT IS GOD's very own testimony, you have no proof otherwise.

In the meantime, could you explain to me how Jesus is the everlasting Father of all things, (Isaiah 9:6) and still be a Son that was begotten in time? The incarnate Sonship doctrine has no problem in doing so, as you will soon see. Also, please explain how Jesus Christ will be the only God you and I will ever see, yet he himself will be subject unto God when all things are fulfilled! Please explain to me how Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus Christ.

I'll come back very soon.

 

[civic]

@civic

Well, face the truth, eternal sonship doctrine in essence denies Jesus' deity as the I AM THAT I AM; I do not care how you spin this, it still will come back to an eternally begotten god which is antichrist teachings, which I truly do not believe you want to go there, yet you are. You cannot escape not dealing with Jesus' deity and a eternally begotten god that does not exist in the scriptures, when addressing his Sonship. It has some very serious ramifications in believing in that false teaching, and those ramifications must be address.

I will make a post very soon, once more (not limiting myself to one) here in this thread.

You keep saying that Jesus is the SECOND person of the Trinity from eternity, yet the Word was God, period, without any qualifications. The Word was made flesh in the person of God's Son who was BORN IN TIME from Mary's womb....THAT IS GOD's very own testimony, you have no proof otherwise.

In the meantime, could you explain to me how Jesus is the everlasting Father of all things, (Isaiah 9:6) and still be a Son that was begotten in time? The incarnate Sonship doctrine has no problem in doing so, as you will soon see. Also, please explain how Jesus Christ will be the only God you and I will ever see, yet he himself will be subject unto God when all things are fulfilled! Please explain to me how Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus Christ.

I'll come back very soon.

there is no eternlly begotten god thats the creeds, I'm talking about scripture alone which I have given plenty of in this thread.

you are arguing a strawman and your own personal belief.

you have not addressed a single passage where its the Son in the passages.

you cannot refute the passages so you ignored them.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

there is no eternlly begotten god thats the creeds, I'm talking about scripture alone which I have given plenty of in this thread.

you are arguing a strawman and your own personal belief.

you have not addressed a single passage where its the Son in the passages.

you cannot refute the passages so you ignored them.

I will be back very soon, clam down, you are a better person than that. If you get upset, then you will lose the debate, the truth will clams men down so they can have confidence in presenting it as they should.

I did address every scripture you gave in the last thread before you started this one, but will be more than happy to address every single one you think you have in your corner, and I expect the same courtesy back.

 

[civic]

@civic

I will be back very soon, clam down, you are a better person than that. If you get upset, then you will lose the debate, the truth will clams men down so they can have confidence in presenting it as they should.

I did address every scripture you gave in the last thread before you started this one, but will be more than happy to address every single one you think you have in your corner, and I expect the same courtesy back.

I’m not upset lol

 

[Studyman]

This thread is needed to defend the historical, orthodox and biblical doctrine of the Eternal Son of God.

John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermeneutics 101.

Yes, The Christ longed to be restored to His former Glory, a Glory HE had with His Father before becoming a mortal human.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).

Yes, the Gospel of God was given to mankind through Christ's Spirit in Moses and the Prophets in times past. But in these last days this same Gospel was given through His "Son", the man Jesus who Loved Righteousness and hated wickedness, and because of this, God gave Him a name above all other humans.

Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Psalms 45: 6 "Thy throne", O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom (The Christ) is a right sceptre.

7 Thou (The Sceptre) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, thy (The Sceptre's) God, hath anointed thee (The Sceptre) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (All other humans)

10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

He was sent by His Father into the earth from the very beginning. "Let there by Light".

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, David, Rehab, Zacharias and Simeon, All given to the Sceptre "To teach them in the way that they should go".

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Colossians 1:15-19

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Yes, all the Examples written for our admonition. All of God's "Instruction in Righteousness", all of God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments, given to us in times past, by the Spirit of Christ which was in them.

Ez. 20: 10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, (SIN) and brought them into the wilderness. (To prove them)

11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that "I am the LORD that sanctify them". (Lord, even of the Sabbath Days)

And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.

Yes, He was the Rock that feed and watered Israel in their journey in the wilderness. HE gave them His Father's Righteousness, but as it is written, "But the house of Israel rebelled against me (Christ) in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted".

These Examples were specifically written for men, so that they would choose not to lust after the same disobedience Israel lusted after. (1 Cor. 10) "12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (like the children of disobedience of that time fell)

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that "I will shew thee":

John tells us the same below:

1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

2 Peter 2: 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

1 Pet. 3: 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Heb. 11: 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark "to the saving of his house"; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Truly the Christ saved Noah, a man given to HIM by His Father.

As does Paul below:

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

God's Commandments and judgments define Sin, they are powerless to forgive Sin.

Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.

Abraham knew about this.

Gen. 22: 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

You would think that with all this evidence of the Author of Noah's, Abraham's and David's Faith, that men would "Join themselves" to this Christ, and become "Doers" of His Sayings as HE is Truly the "Light of the World", and His Word if Spirit and Life.

But alas, as HE Himself laments though Isaiah first, and then as the man Jesus:,

Matt 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermeneutics 101.

civic, you are not a very good student in class Hermeneutics 101. You are not going to pass this course unless you listen a little bit better ~ your heart no doubt is in the right place, but not your head. The same Lord Jesus also said this:

John 3:13​

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Now my friend (I trust we are) how could Jesus have said that he came down from heaven (which indeed he did) yet was "STILL" in heaven even as he was speaking to Nicodemus? Because he in his Eternal deity the I AM THAT I AM..... he is God period! He share the eternal deity with His Father as ONE GOD of Genesis 1:1. Yet, as he was speaking to Nicodemus, he is the Son of God in human flesh around thirty plus years of age.....coming to be the propitiation for the sins of his chosen seed. It is truly a mystery of godliness that we can only understand and grasp a hold of as we stay in the scriptures of truth that will reveal truth to us, by the Spirit of the Living God.

So, your verses you provided above, can easily be understood in light of the blessed truth, that the Word in the beginning, which was God, as the scriptures tells us, was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ of Narareth, the son of David according to the flesh, but truly the Son of God by Jesus being conceived by the power of the Highest without the seed of Adam's posterity being involved...Behold a virgin did indeed conceived and had a child, whose going forth has been from Everlasting! The mystery of godliness!

Micah 5:2​

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

Truly the only begotten Son of God in the manner in which he was begotten. Praise be unto our God who does wonderous work. Jesus Christ the Son of God, is ONE in the Eternal Divine Nature as the ONE God of Genesis 1:1. Creeds lie and corrupt truth ~ the scriptures give us knowledge of the truth if we trust them and not man.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).

As the Word of God, He created and owns all things. Very simple ~ Jesus Christ created the worlds and all things in them, in His divine nature. If this proves the Son’s eternal preexistence, then Ephesians 3:9 does so for Jesus. The Word created all things (John 1:3); the Son is the incarnate Word without qualifications. (John 1:14) He is indeed the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)

Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Again, you do not listen very well~I quoted from the KJV which clearly states the Son was the God of Genesis 1:1. You are failing Hermeneutics 101. If you take heed you might pass, we shall see.

Colossians 1:15-19

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.

There's not a word in the verses saying Jesus was sent, although he was, yet he was sent at the same time and manner that John the Baptist, which was at the time of their births, not before then, before then he was Word that created all things.

And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.

The black bold letters we agree....you said: "This shows the Son existing before becoming man" ~as the Word of God, yes, but not as the Son.

Let me stop and pick up here in the morning the Lord willing, I pretty sure He is.