The Issue of Limited Atonement

[FreeInChrist]

I have a thread on it

Now how convenient is that.... Would I find it over at CCAM? Maybe GC? Maaybe CARM?

When I want to give someone my proofs I not only proved the link to the thread but also the the post number.

DONT bother, because you know you are wrong.

 

[brightfame52]

we are in the flesh until we die.

Not so, the regenerate with the Spirit in them arent in the flesh Rom 8:9a

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

So you dont know what you talking about

 

[brightfame52]

Now how convenient is that.... Would I find it over at CCAM? Maybe GC? Maaybe CARM?

When I want to give someone my proofs I not only proved the link to the thread but also the the post number.

DONT bother, because you know you are wrong.

Read the thread.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Okay then until one isnt in the flesh anymore this is their mind towards God Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Mine is, is yours?

My mine started to be on God about the age of 8 years old...... I had always been aware of him but the thing I remember about that time was when I was told about Santa Clause and the reason for Christmas was to celebrate the Baby Jesus' birth and I asked is that the same for the Easter Bunny, and I was told yes, that we celebrate
Easter because Jesus died for us . and from that moment forward whatever I heard or was said I soaked it in like a sponge because while I was still learning it became important to know.

Did that mean that as a youth and teen and as I got older I was no longer carnally minded? NO! Beyond that you do not have a need to know. Suffice it to say that I wanted to ... no... that's enough.... you would not understand

 

[Studyman]

So then in essence you are saying there is no salvation without your works. Thats apostacy from the Faith friend.

No, that is not what my post represented. There is no Salvation without "God's Works".

 

[civic]

Sorry Red.... This one I failed to address in my reply post to you but it truly begs for a comment from me since I am named here.

I have known unbelievers on these forums... even GC had an agnostic, and there have been doubters here... so who are you really preaching to? Just to conform other believers to what you perceive as the truth because it is a certainty the both of us can ably prove our sides by scripture.

But as I recall I never once made a snide or degrading comment to you... Such as you Telling me I was becoming more Catholic... when I actually would prefer them over most Baptists I have known. Or as you wrote..." I was thinking this morning that @FreeInChrist and others, are like Democrats who are fighting against voter ID cards, yet themselves must show their ID as a member of the House, or Senate before they can cast their vote on particular bill. The inconsistency in their positions on issues, is well noted.... But suppose I have changed parties? I would thank you.

Over the years you have gone after me, swinging low and you were right that I used to cut and run because I was..
was being an operative word... a lady. But one of our mutual friends from another forum told me in a PM once I had to Grow my _____ if I were to survive being on a forum or I would be eaten alive... And it took a while but here I am all grown up.

You dont scare me anymore, you can make all the digs you want at me subtly or straight on, and I AM NOT GOING ANYWHERE.. and I will meet you on any point you want to make that we are at odds with and I, for one, will do our debating with calmness and assurance because I do have the Holy Spirit guiding me in quite a lot of what I say.... and SCRIPTURE proves me right.

AND I AM NOT WRONG.

So if you have a reply to my reply to you I did this morning I welcome it. But I wont stay silent when you make back comments about me as you have done.

Blessings

ego/pride is one of those things people need to keep in check especially on forums as everyone is trying to prove their points and what they believe/perceive to be the truth. humility is a rare bird online which is very Saduccee.

I use to like the challenge of the one on one debate but unfortunately it most often feeds the flesh, not the spirit and our ego's come into play and most often it results it personal attacks and not building up one another through the iron sharpening iron principle.

These days I prefer the open discussions not the ego driven online debates to see who " wins" in the online world.

I know from real life personal experience in small groups, mens groups, couples groups the iron sharpening iron through discussing different POV's really works. Not only will I push back in a way that does not offend or insult the person but in the end the group appreciates the discussions that follows the push back and reasons why. We can come at things from a different perspective the other person might not ov considered, a different vantage point. Sometimes there are many a ha moments when this happens that I have seen first hand. It happened last week in our mens discipleship group with a person giving a standard definition on grace. The discussion went from the definition to the practical side of grace with many scriptures tying in grace with action such as love, helping, giving, obeying, encouraging others etc......

ok enough rambling for now lol.

 

[civic]

I want you to post the scriptures that say it is the Gospel. I dont want to read any threads on the subject. I want the actual words from the Holy Bible that says this is the Gospel

The thing is as we already know there are no verses that mention the gospel which contain any of the 5 points of tulip. Its made up and assumed.

on a side note we have a few determinists/fatalists that has God causing every evil, thought and deed by His decree. Man is nothing but a puppet and God the Puppeteer. Man is nothing but a preprogrammed robot. I've heard determinist pastors/theologians even make those claims.

 

[brightfame52]

No, that is not what my post represented. There is no Salvation without "God's Works".

You say Faith without works is dead. If you talking about Gods works, then everyone Christ died for is saved. Thats Gods work

 

[Studyman]

You say Faith without works is dead.

Actually, if you were to be honest with others on this forum, which I believe is a Godly and Christlike "work" that honors Christ, you would have said: "James, an Apostle of Christ, teaches that Faith without works is dead", and it appears that Studyman believes the Christ Inspired Words of James.

Then you would go to the Holy Scriptures, to show others that this statement is not "My Work", but a "Work" of Christ, who inspired James to write this "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

James 2: 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, "is dead", being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: "the devils also believe", and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith "without works" is dead?

So I am happy and eager to engage in an honest discussion about the holy Scriptures with you, but only if you are interested in honesty, and truly seeking of God's Truth. as opposed to just using select scriptures for the purpose of justifying a religious opinion.

If you talking about Gods works,

Yes, I was talking about, and specifically posted Paul's Christ Inspired Words that make this very clear. Here, I will post them again since you ignored them the first time I posted them.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God (Not the Pope, not Wesley, Not Miller, not Calvin, but GOD) hath before ordained "that we should walk in them".

Notice here that God didn't ordain His Works, for men to refuse to walk in them. Or to be hearers of them only, but as anyone can see, Paul is teaching that God before ordained them, for the express purpose for His People to "Walk in them". It is clearly a "Work of Faith".

Again, these are not "MY" works. I didn't create them. They are God's Works. And as the Holy Scriptures teach, they are "Works of Faith" that God instructs me to walk in.

Everyone has "works". Let me ask you a question. If God says not to eat of a certain tree or I will die. But another voice, who professes to know God, but says go ahead and eat of the forbidden Tree, you shall surely not die.

Which instruction is a "Work of God", and which is a work of man? If I eat of the forbidden tree, which is a work, does this show that I have belief/Faith in the Work of God, or the "work of man" ?

If I don't eat of the tree. Should I get a prize? Am I trying to "earn" a prize? Or is my not eating from the tree simply a manifestation of my Faith in God shown by my works?

then everyone Christ died for is saved. Thats Gods work

God wishes all to be saved, and to enter the Kingdom of Heaven with Christ. And HE did die for everyone.

But according to the Bible, this depends on whether or not we have Faith, as it is written, "For by grace are ye saved through faith". Jesus said: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".

He died for these folks too. And yet if I don't believe Him, and don't repent, I am not saved. My work or refusing to repent, shows dead faith, which is not Faith.

It isn't Christ's Fault that a man doesn't believe Him. He has shown men the way, He has given you The Holy Scriptures, Inspired by the God and Father of all, and declared them trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, (As Jesus Commanded) "throughly furnished" unto all good works. And Paul teaches men to "walk in them".

What else do you need except Belief, and works to prove it, AKA "Faith".

 

[brightfame52]

Actually, if you were to be honest with others on this forum, which I believe is a Godly and Christlike "work" that honors Christ, you would have said: "James, an Apostle of Christ, teaches that Faith without works is dead", and it appears that Studyman believes the Christ Inspired Words of James

I agree with James, Faith without works is dead.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God (Not the Pope, not Wesley, Not Miller, not Calvin, but GOD) hath before ordained "that we should walk in them".

I agree with that

God wishes all to be saved, and to enter the Kingdom of Heaven with Christ. And HE did die for everyone.

Heresy

But according to the Bible, this depends on whether or not we have Faith, as it is written, "For by grace are ye saved through faith". Jesus said: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".

More heresy

He died for these folks too. And yet if I don't believe Him, and don't repent, I am not saved. My work or refusing to repent, shows dead faith, which is not Faith.

Garbage

It isn't Christ's Fault that a man doesn't believe Him. He has shown men the way, He has given you The Holy Scriptures, Inspired by the God and Father of all, and declared them trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, (As Jesus Commanded) "throughly furnished" unto all good works. And Paul teaches men to "walk in them".

Garbage

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Of course not Red, you are as pure as the driven snow. And telling her she has made wickedness her partner, judging the heart of Synergy and me, well that's perfectly fine in your adopted religion. "do as I say, not as I do", the Red baker theme.

I have been gone all day and just got in, so I will wait until tomorrow to post to you and @FreeInChrist.

I will say this about you accusing me of judging others, which I will never do as far as judging men's hearts, motives, etc. I will judge their teachings which God has commanded me to do. Let me show you what it means to judge men's hearts/motive.

Your misrepresentation, often times purposeful in my view

Those words by you Mr. Studyman are words judging men's heart!

God is my witness, I would never purposefully misrepresent any person words, never. @FreeInChrist and @Jim both have known me for many years, and they can testify of this. We have our differences, I freely admit, yet I respect and love both of them, yet that does not stop me from exposing their errors.

 

[brightfame52]

@Studyman

I have been gone all day and just got in, so I will wait until tomorrow to post to you and @FreeInChrist.

I will say this about you accusing me of judging others, which I will never do as far as judging men's hearts, motives, etc. I will judge their teachings which God has commanded me to do. Let me show you what it means to judge men's hearts/motive.

Those words by you Mr. Studyman are words judging men's heart!

God is my witness, I would never purposefully misrepresent any person words, never. @FreeInChrist and @Jim both have known me for many years, and they can testify of this. We have our differences, I freely admit, yet I respect and love both of them, yet that does not stop me from exposing their errors.

Looks like hes judging you.

 

[dwight92070]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

Not all people will be saved is not by definition - limited atonement. Limited atonement says that the atonement was not sufficient for all mankind, but only for a limited number of persons, which is false. The atonement of Christ was sufficient for all mankind, but not all persons chose to receive Him and believe.

 

[Red Baker]

@dwight92070

Not all people will be saved is not by definition - limited atonement. Limited atonement says that the atonement was not sufficient for all mankind, but only for a limited number of persons, which is false. The atonement of Christ was sufficient for all mankind, but not all persons chose to receive Him and believe.

Sir, by you making that statement, you are doing what Peter and Jude both said that false prophets are and will be guilty of doing! Now, whether or not you are false will be judged by God, since you do have space to repent, yet I must warned you that you do fall under the condemnation of doing just what all false prophets do.

2nd Peter 2:1​

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Jude 1:3

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

False prophets/teachers are men professing to be servant of God, thereby among the the very elect, yet these men by their preaching/teaching deny the the very God they are suppose to be servants of.

So, the question is: "how do men fall under this condemnation of denying the Lord, whom they are suppose to be his mouth piece to the people they are preaching to?" Just as you are doing, denying the particular (or limited) atonement provided by God through Christ for his elect only and not for all men without exception, as you and other false teachers are proclaiming!

Matthew 1:21​

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”

Revelation 2:21​

“And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.”

If folk repent of the sin(s) they are guilty of, they they can prove that they are indeed a servant of God, who have falling prey to Satan's lies. I fully understand that even the very elect have drunk the poison of a false gospel by the generation of serpents, yet have recovered, to give proof that they were just deceived temporarily, which is our prayer for all who truly fear God.

Mark 16:18
“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

It isn't Christ's Fault that a man doesn't believe Him.

This was written to @brightfame52 and he responded back, so, I'm going to add a word or two.

This statement of yours above in the quote box reveals your gospel and your deceived heart concering the truth, let me explain in a few words.

No one is saying it is Christ's fault sinners do not believe.

Adam, and even Satan, are perfect examples as to the power of man or angles to believe apart from the doctrine of election of grace. Both Adam and Satan were created upright and given all they needed to continue in their state, yet, apart from God's election and preserving each, "neither had the power on their own to not sin"!

God "alone" is immutable and cannot sin, neither be tempted to sin! Selah

He has shown men the way, He has given you The Holy Scriptures, Inspired by the God and Father of all, and declared them trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, (As Jesus Commanded) "throughly furnished" unto all good works.

Yes He has! That's why we teach the truth of the election of grace, for had there not been an election by God then NONE would have ever been saved from the fall, "none", proven by the fact that the angels that left their first estate never were able to come back (no provision provided for them) and never desire to do so. The ones that did not leave were first elected by God to keep then from leaving, or, they too would have left! (See 1st Timothy 5:21)

 

[FreeInChrist]

Looks like hes judging you.

Not anymore then you judge me.

 

[brightfame52]

The Atonement is limited but efficacious to only His Seed, and all mankind isnt His Seed Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Its this spiritual seed of Christ He particularly His soul was made an offering for sin 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us[His seed], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Cor 15:3-4

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins[His seed] according to the scriptures; 4 ;and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The scriptures Paul is talking about is Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,

 

[brightfame52]

Not all people will be saved is not by definition - limited atonement. Limited atonement says that the atonement was not sufficient for all mankind,

Its sufficiency was guided by the purpose of God towards the elect, which sufficiency saved them efficaciously.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Atonement is limited but efficacious to only His Seed, and all mankind isnt His Seed Isa 53:10

Isaiah 53:10 speaks of the fruit of Christ’s suffering, not a denial of His relation to mankind as fallen in Adam. “Seed” describes those who come to life through His work, not a pre-existent subset that alone gives the atonement meaning. Scripture distinguishes between the sufficiency of Christ’s death, its proclamation to all, and its efficacious application to believers. Collapsing those categories is not gospel clarity—it’s category confusion.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Its this spiritual seed of Christ He particularly His soul was made an offering for sin 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us[His seed], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Cor 15:3-4

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins[His seed] according to the scriptures; 4 ;and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The scriptures Paul is talking about is Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,

 

[brightfame52]

Not anymore then you judge me.

How about judging limited atonement.