brightfame52
Active Member
The Gospel is known to sound foolish to some.
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes in Vs 16 they are called the seed of Abraham, again a particular people in the world Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
But not to them only, its also to the Church all who have partaken of the heavenly calling
Heb 3
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
The Gentile church is also holy brethren 1 Thess 5 27
I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
And all brethren go through persecution and trails and suffering for their faith,
So this post confirms limited atonement, the atonement of Christ is for a specific people the seed of Abraham, a Spiritual Seed
brightfame52
Active Member
Jesus says in a quite matter of fact way, He came specifically to lay down His Life for the Sheep that Father has given Him Jn 10:15,29
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
And when I chose to believe and grow my faith because of what I learned , I became one of those sheep.
brightfame52
Active Member
Talking about yourself. Boasting
brightfame52
Active Member
When Jesus came to save sinners, He was made like unto them specifically, His Brethren Heb 2:17
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people
He didn't come to make reconciliation for the sins for all mankind, but for the sins of His brethren/ the people
The people has the definite article,
ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ
And the brethren in Vs 17 qre not ethnic jews from the nation of israel per se, but for the them His brethren in the purpose of God to be conformed to His image Rom 8 29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
His atonement was and is particularly for them.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people
He didn't come to make reconciliation for the sins for all mankind, but for the sins of His brethren/ the people
The people has the definite article,
ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ
And the brethren in Vs 17 qre not ethnic jews from the nation of israel per se, but for the them His brethren in the purpose of God to be conformed to His image Rom 8 29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
His atonement was and is particularly for them.
brightfame52
Active Member
Jesus says quite frankly exactly for whom He died as the Good Shepherd Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Now as Shepherd of the Sheep, why would He lay down His Life for them who are non Sheep of His ?
Also when He arose from the dead after dying for the Sheep, it was as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Also this confirms that the all or every man earlier in Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Must be His Sheep !
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Now as Shepherd of the Sheep, why would He lay down His Life for them who are non Sheep of His ?
Also when He arose from the dead after dying for the Sheep, it was as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Also this confirms that the all or every man earlier in Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Must be His Sheep !
brightfame52
Active Member
Jesus death was limited to a particular people, His Seed !
Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Thats correct, when Christ soul was made an offering for sin, it wasn't for all mankind, but for His Seed, and God the Father saw His Seed in Christ when His soul for the Justice of God was made an offering for sin, and this pleased the Lord and He the Lord was satisfied Vs 11
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Also that word satisfied can mean appeased or propitiated. Yet its not for all mankind, but for His Seed, the Father saw them Identified with His souls offering for sin !
Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Thats correct, when Christ soul was made an offering for sin, it wasn't for all mankind, but for His Seed, and God the Father saw His Seed in Christ when His soul for the Justice of God was made an offering for sin, and this pleased the Lord and He the Lord was satisfied Vs 11
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Also that word satisfied can mean appeased or propitiated. Yet its not for all mankind, but for His Seed, the Father saw them Identified with His souls offering for sin !
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You are sounding more and more like @jeremiah1five
And unless I missed it somewhere long the way... you are not of that seed.
Those would be the true spiritual Heirs of father Abraham, all who received Jesus as their Savior and Lord
jeremiah1five
Active Member
When a person is born-again, they bring into their new life beliefs and errors of their old life. The Word of God is the canon that is supposed to reprove, correct, and instruct in righteousness but only when it is consulted to form one's beliefs in their new life. None of us have perfect understanding of this "so-great salvation" but some of us are more biblical than others.
brightfame52
Active Member
The seed because Christ gave His soul for them as a offering for sin, they will serve Him, they shall be converted to Him Ps 22:30
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
brightfame52
Active Member
The Eternal Security of the Seed,
Ps 89 29,36
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
This is God the Father promising His Son the Covenant Head of the Seed, because of His Work for them, giving His Soul an offering for sin, He will make His seed to endure forever, and His Throne.
Ps 89 29,36
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
This is God the Father promising His Son the Covenant Head of the Seed, because of His Work for them, giving His Soul an offering for sin, He will make His seed to endure forever, and His Throne.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The Seed is Abraham's biological seed as designated by God in His Promise to Abraham.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.
There is no other way to interpret whose seed is being referred to in your passage.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
You trusting in the flesh
No, the seed was Jesus, and the seeds are those who are saved jews and Gentiles under Him as their Savior and Lord now
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You're adding to the Bible.
God has no covenant with Gentiles as He does with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed (Gen. 14:13; Gen. 17:7.)
That Hebrew seed would in 430 years would become over a million people born of Jacob (grandson of Abram) whom God named "Israel" which is also the designation for the Hebrew people as a whole.
The Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets all record God's relationship with Abram's seed while non-Hebrew Gentiles are the enemy of God and the Hebrew people. They are their enemy in the past, in the present, and will be prophetically their enemy in the future. God does not save His enemies. He eradicates them. The book of Joshua is an example of this.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
As did Jesus. He understood and acknowledged he was David's biological 'son.'
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:41–46.
In Rabbinical thought, the Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Mashiach ben David). However, Jesus points out a linguistic "riddle":
- Patriarchal Honor: In Middle Eastern and Jewish culture, a father is always greater than the son. A father would never call his descendant "Lord."
- The Question: If the Messiah is merely a human son (descendant) of David, why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh), address him as "my Lord"?
From a Jewish theological standpoint, this points to the Messiah’s pre-existence or a status that transcends simple lineage. He is "David's Son" according to the flesh, but "David's Lord" according to his divine appointment and station. The Pharisees were "silenced" because, within the strict horizontal view of a human-only king, they couldn't explain why the great King David would submit to his own grandson.
Jesus was clearly aware of His biological origin being a descendant of Abraham. It was this biologic by which He knew who He is and where He came from. He came from man and from God. The God-man.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:41–46.
In Rabbinical thought, the Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Mashiach ben David). However, Jesus points out a linguistic "riddle":
- Patriarchal Honor: In Middle Eastern and Jewish culture, a father is always greater than the son. A father would never call his descendant "Lord."
- The Question: If the Messiah is merely a human son (descendant) of David, why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh), address him as "my Lord"?
From a Jewish theological standpoint, this points to the Messiah’s pre-existence or a status that transcends simple lineage. He is "David's Son" according to the flesh, but "David's Lord" according to his divine appointment and station. The Pharisees were "silenced" because, within the strict horizontal view of a human-only king, they couldn't explain why the great King David would submit to his own grandson.
Jesus was clearly aware of His biological origin being a descendant of Abraham. It was this biologic by which He knew who He is and where He came from. He came from man and from God. The God-man.
You should know this and it should form your understanding. But instead, you like to add to the Bible and reject the truth of Jesus' genealogy. He IS the biological son of Abraham and David. His birth proves His credentials as a Jew who was prophesied to save Jews.
NOT Gentiles.
