The Importance of Studying Bible Prophecy

[TomL]

The concept in John 5:25-29 is virtually quoting from Daniel 12. Then Revelation 20 conveys the same aspect of resurrection to reign for the saints and judgment of the unrighteous. Also, Revelation 20:4-6 says this is the first resurrection. The bodily resurrection of Christians is the implied final resurrection.

It noted John 5:25 not verses 26-29

John 5:25 now is

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

verses 28-29 do not repeat the now is and speak of those in the grave and is future

John 5:28–29 (KJV 1900) — 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[mikesw]

It noted John 5:25 not verses 26-29

John 5:25 now is

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

verses 28-29 do not repeat the now is and speak of those in the grave and is future

John 5:28–29 (KJV 1900) — 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Exactly! John 5:26-29 give further details of what is happening. Verse 25 speaks of the nearness and is highlighted with "now is." Then the greater details are provided in 26-29. Or, maybe a little more precisely, Jesus shows that verse 25 is a bit sooner but is evidence that verse 28-29 is happening shortly thereafter. We cannot separate the marinating of the meat from the next step of cooking it in the oven.

 

[TomL]

Exactly! John 5:26-29 give further details of what is happening. Verse 25 speaks of the nearness and is highlighted with "now is." Then the greater details are provided in 26-29. Or, maybe a little more precisely, Jesus shows that verse 25 is a bit sooner but is evidence that verse 28-29 is happening shortly thereafter. We cannot separate the marinating of the meat from the next step of cooking it in the oven.

noooo

There was no physical resurrection that was now is in Christ day of the new testament saints before even Christ himself was resurrected

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


And now is (και νυν ἐστιν [kai nun estin]). See 4:23 for this phrase. Not the future resurrection in verse 28, but the spiritual resurrection here and now. The dead (οἱ νεκροι [hoi nekroi]). The spiritually dead, dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1, 5; 5:14). Shall hear the voice of the Son of God (ἀκουσουσιν της φωνης του υἱου του θεου [akousousin tēs phōnēs tou huiou tou theou]). Note three genitives (φωνης [phōnēs] after ἀκουσουσιν [akousousin], υἱου [huiou] with φωνης [phōnēs], θεου [theou] with υἱου [huiou]). Note three articles (correlation of the article) and that Jesus here calls himself “the Son of God” as in 10:36; 11:4. Shall live (ζησουσιν [zēsousin]). Future active indicative, shall come to life spiritually.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 5:25.

The dead. Spiritually. Word studies in the New testament

5:25 Ἀμὴν κτλ. 1:51. Καὶ νῦν ἐστιν (“in fact, it is already here”) shows that οἱ νεκροί refers not primarily to the dead in the tombs (cf. v. 28) but to those who are by nature unresponsive to God because of their sins (cf. Eph 2:1, 5; 5:14) but who, once they have responded (οἱ ἀκούσαντες [nom. pl. masc. of aor. act. ptc. of ἀκούω]) to the voice of God’s Son (cf. v. 8, Ἔγειρε) will experience eternal life here and now (ζήσουσιν [3rd pl. fut. act. indic. of ζάω]), being raised to a new kind of existence (cf. Rom 6:4).

Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 114.

This verse continues to refer to spiritual awakening from the dead. The ἔρχεται ὥρα κ. νῦν ἐστιν is an expression (see ref.) used of those things which are to characterize the spiritual Kingdom of Christ, which was even now begun among men, but not yet brought (until the day of Pentecost, Acts 2) to its completion. Thus it cometh, in its fulness,—and even now is begun.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 748.

 

[mikesw]

noooo

There was no physical resurrection that was now is in Christ day of the new testament saints before even Christ himself was resurrected

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


And now is (και νυν ἐστιν [kai nun estin]). See 4:23 for this phrase. Not the future resurrection in verse 28, but the spiritual resurrection here and now. The dead (οἱ νεκροι [hoi nekroi]). The spiritually dead, dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1, 5; 5:14). Shall hear the voice of the Son of God (ἀκουσουσιν της φωνης του υἱου του θεου [akousousin tēs phōnēs tou huiou tou theou]). Note three genitives (φωνης [phōnēs] after ἀκουσουσιν [akousousin], υἱου [huiou] with φωνης [phōnēs], θεου [theou] with υἱου [huiou]). Note three articles (correlation of the article) and that Jesus here calls himself “the Son of God” as in 10:36; 11:4. Shall live (ζησουσιν [zēsousin]). Future active indicative, shall come to life spiritually.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 5:25.

The dead. Spiritually. Word studies in the New testament

5:25 Ἀμὴν κτλ. 1:51. Καὶ νῦν ἐστιν (“in fact, it is already here”) shows that οἱ νεκροί refers not primarily to the dead in the tombs (cf. v. 28) but to those who are by nature unresponsive to God because of their sins (cf. Eph 2:1, 5; 5:14) but who, once they have responded (οἱ ἀκούσαντες [nom. pl. masc. of aor. act. ptc. of ἀκούω]) to the voice of God’s Son (cf. v. 8, Ἔγειρε) will experience eternal life here and now (ζήσουσιν [3rd pl. fut. act. indic. of ζάω]), being raised to a new kind of existence (cf. Rom 6:4).

Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 114.

This verse continues to refer to spiritual awakening from the dead. The ἔρχεται ὥρα κ. νῦν ἐστιν is an expression (see ref.) used of those things which are to characterize the spiritual Kingdom of Christ, which was even now begun among men, but not yet brought (until the day of Pentecost, Acts 2) to its completion. Thus it cometh, in its fulness,—and even now is begun.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 748.

Certainly, there is no controversy on John 5:25 is addressing people in the shorter time period. But, against these attempts to forestall vv 28-29, Jesus has put them in close proximity. None of these speak of a physical resurrection either. The physical resurrection comes later than the "first resurrection" of Rev 6. It is just that Revelation is not focused on the physical resurrection. These commentators have to show how Jesus quotes Daniel 12:2 but that vv 28-29 are not speaking of Dan 12:2. Also, Daniel 12:3 shows the believers shining like the sky, the stars. That speaks of a non-physical resurrection for the interim.

 

[TomL]

Certainly, there is no controversy on John 5:25 is addressing people in the shorter time period. But, against these attempts to forestall vv 28-29, Jesus has put them in close proximity. None of these speak of a physical resurrection either. The physical resurrection comes later than the "first resurrection" of Rev 6. It is just that Revelation is not focused on the physical resurrection. These commentators have to show how Jesus quotes Daniel 12:2 but that vv 28-29 are not speaking of Dan 12:2. Also, Daniel 12:3 shows the believers shining like the sky, the stars. That speaks of a non-physical resurrection for the interim.

Um John 5:28 addresses the physical resurrection

John 5:28–29 (UASV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, because an hour is coming when all who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

 

[mikesw]

Um John 5:28 addresses the physical resurrection

John 5:28–29 (UASV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, because an hour is coming when all who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

you are assuming a literal, physical interpretation of this. This means that Jesus will be speaking physically, the tombs as not being figurative reference to people being dead, only those with "intact" bodies will rise (but something else must happen to those who died at sea), and these bodies will actually hear the sound of Jesus' voice. Worse yet, the same actions will happen to those who did wicked things. However, they shall be burned to death right after being raised to the physical state. The soonness of these events meant that all this happened without anyone noticing it. Then you have to assume that the match to Daniel 12:2 was just coincidence.
Sure. All this is possible. I tend to find Jesus speaking metaphorically as is common in prophecy. The similar passages tend to be due to related events. Of course, some metaphors, such as the stars falling (in an analogy not found in John 5), share the same symbolic meaning wherever found.

 

[TomL]

you are assuming a literal, physical interpretation of this. This means that Jesus will be speaking physically, the tombs as not being figurative reference to people being dead, only those with "intact" bodies will rise (but something else must happen to those who died at sea), and these bodies will actually hear the sound of Jesus' voice. Worse yet, the same actions will happen to those who did wicked things. However, they shall be burned to death right after being raised to the physical state. The soonness of these events meant that all this happened without anyone noticing it. Then you have to assume that the match to Daniel 12:2 was just coincidence.
Sure. All this is possible. I tend to find Jesus speaking metaphorically as is common in prophecy. The similar passages tend to be due to related events. Of course, some metaphors, such as the stars falling (in an analogy not found in John 5), share the same symbolic meaning wherever found.

You need a good reason to assume it is not literal

28 Do not marvel at this, because an hour is coming when all who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

being in the grave and coming out at a future time is a good picture of the physical resurrection

and the contrast between the time that now is and the time that is coming strengthens that picture

and it is further strengthened by

John 5:29 (UASV) — 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

and the assignment to eternal destinies which is known to happen at the resurrection


The literal resurrection at the last day is meant.

J. R. Dummelow, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Bible (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1936), 784.



Life and judgment in the final future (5:28–29)

Like Nicodemus in 3:7, those present for this teaching are “amazed” and shocked at such bold proclamations. Such divine truths are incredibly hard to comprehend, let alone accept, yet at the same time they are simply introducing even more difficult truths and prove preliminary to Jesus’ next pronouncement. He wants them to know that a future reality will help them to understand the present truths they are struggling with: “A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.” Once more, he is “the Word of God,” the Living Revealer, so his is the very voice of God. He is the Son of Man from Daniel 7, so his voice will enact Daniel 12:1–2: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Here the fulfillment of Daniel 12 takes the form of Christ’s authority over life and judgment, as seen in 5:29: “and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.” This is clearly a reference to the parousia, the second coming, when he “will come down from heaven with a loud command” (1 Thess 4:16). All humankind will be divided into two groups, the only division in all of history that truly matters—the good who inherit eternal life, and the evil who face eternal punishment


Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 135–136.

Here the hour is coming stands alone without the accompanying ‘and is now here’ of v. 25. At that hour it will be the voice of the Son of God (cf. v. 25) or the Son of Man (cf. v. 27) that the physically dead will hear and their resurrection will be either to a verdict of life or to a verdict of condemnation. Just as in 3:19–21, where the judgement provoked in the present by the coming of Christ exposes people’s deeds in their true light, so here this final judgement will again be on the basis of people’s deeds—whether they have done good or evil

Andrew T. Lincoln, The Gospel according to Saint John (Black’s New Testament Commentary; London: Continuum, 2005), 204–205.

All that are in the graves. All the dead, of every age and nation. They are described as in the graves. Though many have turned to their native dust and perished from human view, yet God sees them, and can regather their remains and raise them up to life. The phrase all that are in the graves does not prove that the same particles of matter will be raised up, but it is equivalent to saying all the dead. See Notes on 1 Co. 15:35–38.
Shall hear his voice. He will restore them to life, and command them to appear before him. This is a most sublime description, and this will be a wonderful display of almighty power. None but God can see all the dead, none but he could remould their frames, and none else could command them to return to life.
29. Shall come forth. Shall come out of their graves. This was the language which he used when he raised up Lazarus, Jn. 11:43, 44.


Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 235.


etc etc etc

 

[Rockson]

I agree that with Revelations you see overlaps. Things repeated but in a slightly different way. You see this in Genesis too. It starts up in one place talking about God creating Adam and Eve and then later starts the same story again but in a different way of saying it.

What's repeated and what's not? I think the Seals are not judgements or wrath of God but rather revealings of what is taking place on the Earth before judgments begin. Not so good things are happening with the Seals but still not God's judgements or wrath until at least Rev 8.

The vials and the trumpets I believe are judgments but overlapped and repeated in a slightly different way.

 

[mikesw]

You need a good reason to assume it is not literal

28 Do not marvel at this, because an hour is coming when all who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

being in the grave and coming out at a future time is a good picture of the physical resurrection

and the contrast between the time that now is and the time that is coming strengthens that picture

and it is further strengthened by

John 5:29 (UASV) — 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

and the assignment to eternal destinies which is known to happen at the resurrection


The literal resurrection at the last day is meant.

J. R. Dummelow, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Bible (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1936), 784.



Life and judgment in the final future (5:28–29)

Like Nicodemus in 3:7, those present for this teaching are “amazed” and shocked at such bold proclamations. Such divine truths are incredibly hard to comprehend, let alone accept, yet at the same time they are simply introducing even more difficult truths and prove preliminary to Jesus’ next pronouncement. He wants them to know that a future reality will help them to understand the present truths they are struggling with: “A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.” Once more, he is “the Word of God,” the Living Revealer, so his is the very voice of God. He is the Son of Man from Daniel 7, so his voice will enact Daniel 12:1–2: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Here the fulfillment of Daniel 12 takes the form of Christ’s authority over life and judgment, as seen in 5:29: “and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.” This is clearly a reference to the parousia, the second coming, when he “will come down from heaven with a loud command” (1 Thess 4:16). All humankind will be divided into two groups, the only division in all of history that truly matters—the good who inherit eternal life, and the evil who face eternal punishment


Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 135–136.

Here the hour is coming stands alone without the accompanying ‘and is now here’ of v. 25. At that hour it will be the voice of the Son of God (cf. v. 25) or the Son of Man (cf. v. 27) that the physically dead will hear and their resurrection will be either to a verdict of life or to a verdict of condemnation. Just as in 3:19–21, where the judgement provoked in the present by the coming of Christ exposes people’s deeds in their true light, so here this final judgement will again be on the basis of people’s deeds—whether they have done good or evil

Andrew T. Lincoln, The Gospel according to Saint John (Black’s New Testament Commentary; London: Continuum, 2005), 204–205.

All that are in the graves. All the dead, of every age and nation. They are described as in the graves. Though many have turned to their native dust and perished from human view, yet God sees them, and can regather their remains and raise them up to life. The phrase all that are in the graves does not prove that the same particles of matter will be raised up, but it is equivalent to saying all the dead. See Notes on 1 Co. 15:35–38.
Shall hear his voice. He will restore them to life, and command them to appear before him. This is a most sublime description, and this will be a wonderful display of almighty power. None but God can see all the dead, none but he could remould their frames, and none else could command them to return to life.
29. Shall come forth. Shall come out of their graves. This was the language which he used when he raised up Lazarus, Jn. 11:43, 44.


Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 235.


etc etc etc

I'm just sharing what the passage indicates. I have shared many reasons why the text would not likely be literal. That is the general tendency of apocalyptic language. If there are exceptions, they need to be explained why the language would deviate from the norm so as to be literal.
We can see Osborne has the sense to connect John 5:28-29 with Dan 12:2. As we discover in Dan 12:2, the wording speaks of many people awakened. It is not all of humanity in view. The message of Daniel also must be noted as the events primarily addressed in the context of prophecy concerning the Israel people and the fate of the four empires described. Understanding that detail is part of the reason why it is important to study Bible prophecy.

 

[TomL]

I'm just sharing what the passage indicates. I have shared many reasons why the text would not likely be literal. That is the general tendency of apocalyptic language. If there are exceptions, they need to be explained why the language would deviate from the norm so as to be literal.
We can see Osborne has the sense to connect John 5:28-29 with Dan 12:2. As we discover in Dan 12:2, the wording speaks of many people awakened. It is not all of humanity in view. The message of Daniel also must be noted as the events primarily addressed in the context of prophecy concerning the Israel people and the fate of the four empires described. Understanding that detail is part of the reason why it is important to study Bible prophecy.

Well I extolled a number of reasons why the future resurrection should be understood

You need a good reason to assume it is not literal

28 Do not marvel at this, because an hour is coming when all who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

being in the grave and coming out at a future time is a good picture of the physical resurrection

and the contrast between the time that now is and the time that is coming strengthens that picture

and it is further strengthened by

John 5:29 (UASV) — 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

and the assignment to eternal destinies which is known to happen at the resurrection


And may commentators agree


The literal resurrection at the last day is meant.

J. R. Dummelow, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Bible (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1936), 784.



Life and judgment in the final future (5:28–29)

Like Nicodemus in 3:7, those present for this teaching are “amazed” and shocked at such bold proclamations. Such divine truths are incredibly hard to comprehend, let alone accept, yet at the same time they are simply introducing even more difficult truths and prove preliminary to Jesus’ next pronouncement. He wants them to know that a future reality will help them to understand the present truths they are struggling with: “A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.” Once more, he is “the Word of God,” the Living Revealer, so his is the very voice of God. He is the Son of Man from Daniel 7, so his voice will enact Daniel 12:1–2: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Here the fulfillment of Daniel 12 takes the form of Christ’s authority over life and judgment, as seen in 5:29: “and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.” This is clearly a reference to the parousia, the second coming, when he “will come down from heaven with a loud command” (1 Thess 4:16). All humankind will be divided into two groups, the only division in all of history that truly matters—the good who inherit eternal life, and the evil who face eternal punishment


Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 135–136.

Here the hour is coming stands alone without the accompanying ‘and is now here’ of v. 25. At that hour it will be the voice of the Son of God (cf. v. 25) or the Son of Man (cf. v. 27) that the physically dead will hear and their resurrection will be either to a verdict of life or to a verdict of condemnation. Just as in 3:19–21, where the judgement provoked in the present by the coming of Christ exposes people’s deeds in their true light, so here this final judgement will again be on the basis of people’s deeds—whether they have done good or evil

Andrew T. Lincoln, The Gospel according to Saint John (Black’s New Testament Commentary; London: Continuum, 2005), 204–205.

All that are in the graves. All the dead, of every age and nation. They are described as in the graves. Though many have turned to their native dust and perished from human view, yet God sees them, and can regather their remains and raise them up to life. The phrase all that are in the graves does not prove that the same particles of matter will be raised up, but it is equivalent to saying all the dead. See Notes on 1 Co. 15:35–38.
Shall hear his voice. He will restore them to life, and command them to appear before him. This is a most sublime description, and this will be a wonderful display of almighty power. None but God can see all the dead, none but he could remould their frames, and none else could command them to return to life.
29. Shall come forth. Shall come out of their graves. This was the language which he used when he raised up Lazarus, Jn. 11:43, 44.


Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 235.


etc etc etc


Dan 12:2 is speaking of physical resurrection

Daniel 12:2 (NIV) — 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[mikesw]

Well I extolled a number of reasons why the future resurrection should be understood

You need a good reason to assume it is not literal

28 Do not marvel at this, because an hour is coming when all who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

being in the grave and coming out at a future time is a good picture of the physical resurrection

and the contrast between the time that now is and the time that is coming strengthens that picture

and it is further strengthened by

John 5:29 (UASV) — 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

and the assignment to eternal destinies which is known to happen at the resurrection


And may commentators agree

The literal resurrection at the last day is meant.
J. R. Dummelow, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Bible (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1936), 784.



Life and judgment in the final future (5:28–29)
Like Nicodemus in 3:7, those present for this teaching are “amazed” and shocked at such bold proclamations. Such divine truths are incredibly hard to comprehend, let alone accept, yet at the same time they are simply introducing even more difficult truths and prove preliminary to Jesus’ next pronouncement. He wants them to know that a future reality will help them to understand the present truths they are struggling with: “A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.” Once more, he is “the Word of God,” the Living Revealer, so his is the very voice of God. He is the Son of Man from Daniel 7, so his voice will enact Daniel 12:1–2: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Here the fulfillment of Daniel 12 takes the form of Christ’s authority over life and judgment, as seen in 5:29: “and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.” This is clearly a reference to the parousia, the second coming, when he “will come down from heaven with a loud command” (1 Thess 4:16). All humankind will be divided into two groups, the only division in all of history that truly matters—the good who inherit eternal life, and the evil who face eternal punishment
Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 135–136.

Here the hour is coming stands alone without the accompanying ‘and is now here’ of v. 25. At that hour it will be the voice of the Son of God (cf. v. 25) or the Son of Man (cf. v. 27) that the physically dead will hear and their resurrection will be either to a verdict of life or to a verdict of condemnation. Just as in 3:19–21, where the judgement provoked in the present by the coming of Christ exposes people’s deeds in their true light, so here this final judgement will again be on the basis of people’s deeds—whether they have done good or evil

Andrew T. Lincoln, The Gospel according to Saint John (Black’s New Testament Commentary; London: Continuum, 2005), 204–205.

All that are in the graves. All the dead, of every age and nation. They are described as in the graves. Though many have turned to their native dust and perished from human view, yet God sees them, and can regather their remains and raise them up to life. The phrase all that are in the graves does not prove that the same particles of matter will be raised up, but it is equivalent to saying all the dead. See Notes on 1 Co. 15:35–38.
Shall hear his voice. He will restore them to life, and command them to appear before him. This is a most sublime description, and this will be a wonderful display of almighty power. None but God can see all the dead, none but he could remould their frames, and none else could command them to return to life.
29. Shall come forth. Shall come out of their graves. This was the language which he used when he raised up Lazarus, Jn. 11:43, 44.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 235.


etc etc etc


Dan 12:2 is speaking of physical resurrection

Daniel 12:2 (NIV) — 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

It certainly is better that you are not just holding a view that is some whimsical idea that would be viewed by scholars as unsubstantiated. That is a better stand to take for most people who want to assert a view. It is funny that only your quote from the commentary edited by Dummelow actually clarifies your primary point of contention. I would agree with what you quoted: "The literal resurrection at the last day is meant." Okay. that should settle the discussion. uh. maybe not.
I agree then that the persecuted saints were dead (or often said to be asleep) and they were raised from the dead. This was the first resurrection. Your conundrum lies with the assumption that literal means physical and by physical, you mean they are seen on earth. You would further appear to be equating the word "literal" with "real." Consequently, your view (and that of these scholars, and possibly all scholars and commentaries) is that Jesus has said every word in a sense that should be interpreted as a physical, earth-based resurrection.
I note that the resurrection to life (jn 5:29) can be real but in the unseen realm. Note also that life itself is best understood as being in a relationship (or proper state) with God. As Daniel 12 notes, they were awakened (as if having been asleep). The righteous were then awakened to reign with Christ (which introduces several popular doctrines that could be addressed). You have to contrast that with the doers of evil who are raised, but they are not raised to life. Thus, they have a different resurrection that greatly extends the meaning of the word. So, resurrection can be understood as functional service with Christ -- of reigning with Christ from the unseen realm. If Christ can reign from there, so can those resurrected in the unseen realm. Thus the resurrection of this nature is real.
Osborne makes an important connection of John 5:28-29 with Daniel 12 but he introduces much controversy in doing so. He misses that Dan 12:2 does not say that all the dead are raised but rather than many who are dead (or asleep) shall be raised. This limitation fits with what Jesus said, namely that those in the graves shall soon arise. It would not be people who are still walking on the earth. This then helps limit the scope of John 5:25-29 to a narrow period.
Osborne's connection of John 5:28-29 with Daniel 12 also indicates that the situation of the Israel people is in view. Daniel provides prophecy about the future of his own people. The twelveth chapter provides the concluding details about the future of his people. Paul explains as a mystery that gentiles who are made righteous in Christ also enjoy the benefits described for Jews who come to Christ.
The last day also has to be noted as the term describing the end of a nation. As such, the resurrection of Daniel 12 speaks of what happens at the last day of Israel as a nation. These events are noted historically in its fall in AD70.
None of this excludes the recognition that we have just been talking about the first resurrection such that all the saints will see an earthly resurrection, i.e. the implied second resurrection of Rev 20:6. This should be of some satisfaction for those who are wondering what God has for us all in the timeless future.
This all may seem to contradict tradition. However, these issues have to be resolved by proper consideration and the wording and context of the passages. As such, many reasons have been shown what a careful study of prophecy is needed.

 

[TomL]

It certainly is better that you are not just holding a view that is some whimsical idea that would be viewed by scholars as unsubstantiated. That is a better stand to take for most people who want to assert a view. It is funny that only your quote from the commentary edited by Dummelow actually clarifies your primary point of contention. I would agree with what you quoted: "The literal resurrection at the last day is meant." Okay. that should settle the discussion. uh. maybe not.

First I noted

Well I extolled a number of reasons why the future resurrection should be understood

You need a good reason to assume it is not literal

28 Do not marvel at this, because an hour is coming when all who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

being in the grave and coming out at a future time is a good picture of the physical resurrection

and the contrast between the time that now is and the time that is coming strengthens that picture

and it is further strengthened by

John 5:29 (UASV) — 29 and come out, those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, and those who have practiced wicked things to the resurrection of judgment.

and the assignment to eternal destinies which is known to happen at the resurrection

You state you agree with

The literal resurrection at the last day is meant.
J. R. Dummelow, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Bible (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1936), 784.

Um the resurrection at the last day is physical

I agree then that the persecuted saints were dead (or often said to be asleep) and they were raised from the dead. This was the first resurrection.

But not at the last day

Your conundrum lies with the assumption that literal means physical and by physical, you mean they are seen on earth.

you would further appear to be equating the word "literal" with "real." Consequently, your view (and that of these scholars, and possibly all scholars and commentaries) is that Jesus has said every word in a sense that should be interpreted as a physical, earth-based resurrection.

You have not shown a conundrum

I note that the resurrection to life (jn 5:29) can be real but in the unseen realm.

lets keep in mind what we see in Jn 5:29

We see men in the grave

We see men coming out of the grave

and we see them being assigned their eternal destiny

Their eternal destiny must include a physical resurrection or it is not the eternal destiny and another destiny still awaits

Note also that life itself is best understood as being in a relationship (or proper state) with God. As Daniel 12 notes, they were awakened (as if having been asleep). The righteous were then awakened to reign with Christ (which introduces several popular doctrines that could be addressed).

Reign over what ?

With the introduction of their eternal destiny there are either in hell with all the other who did make the resurrection to life or with all the others who did who are all in the same state

What are they going to reign over?

You have to contrast that with the doers of evil who are raised, but they are not raised to life. Thus, they have a different resurrection that greatly extends the meaning of the word. So, resurrection can be understood as functional service with Christ -- of reigning with Christ from the unseen realm.

not if you believe

1 Corinthians 15:22–55 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

and the fact the first resurrection is spiritual i.e. regeneration that happens when you believe

now is

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

that is two Resurrections

 

[mikesw]

First I noted


You state you agree with

The literal resurrection at the last day is meant.
J. R. Dummelow, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Bible (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1936), 784.

Um the resurrection at the last day is physical







But not at the last day





You have not shown a conundrum




lets keep in mind what we see in Jn 5:29

We see men in the grave

We see men coming out of the grave

and we see them being assigned their eternal destiny

Their eternal destiny must include a physical resurrection or it is not the eternal destiny and another destiny still awaits





Reign over what ?

With the introduction of their eternal destiny there are either in hell with all the other who did make the resurrection to life or with all the others who did who are all in the same state

What are they going to reign over?







not if you believe

1 Corinthians 15:22–55 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

and the fact the first resurrection is spiritual i.e. regeneration that happens when you believe

now is

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

that is two Resurrections

1 Corinthians 15:22–55 speaks of the same event as Rev 20:4-6. Thanks for adding that confirmation. I like verse 44 that notes the body is raised a spiritual one. I don't expect you to believe the context of these passages right away. It would require you delving deeper into the way these passage interrelate and what the contexts of the passages are.

 

[Grace ambassador]

1 Corinthians 15:22–55 speaks of the same event as Rev 20:4-6.

Unless 'pre-trib' Great Grace Departure Of The Body Of Christ is true, then they would
not be the same event, eh precious friend?

Amen.

 

[TomL]

1 Corinthians 15:22–55 speaks of the same event as Rev 20:4-6. Thanks for adding that confirmation. I like verse 44 that notes the body is raised a spiritual one. I don't expect you to believe the context of these passages right away. It would require you delving deeper into the way these passage interrelate and what the contexts of the passages are.

1cor 15 22-55

Speaks of the end of Christs reign at the second advent and the resurrection of the dead

there is no millenium following it but the destruction of this old earth and the ushering in of the new heaven and the new earth which also transpires at Christ's advent

2 Peter 3:7–13 (KJV 1900) — 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[mikesw]

1cor 15 22-55

Speaks of the end of Christs reign at the second advent and the resurrection of the dead

there is no millenium following it but the destruction of this old earth and the ushering in of the new heaven and the new earth which also transpires at Christ's advent

2 Peter 3:7–13 (KJV 1900) — 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Nothing like sharing more apocalyptic language to describe the day of the Lord in judgment over the Israel/Judah nation in AD70. You have to recognize that Peter writes to people who will mostly be alive to encounter this situation. He was not prophesying something happening even a hundred years later. That would not have aided the people he addressed nor would there be continuity of people to that later era ( -- e.g. like people descended from that first generation who would need to be warned of doing the same evil acts -- i.e. the general basis of prophecy about the Israel people in the OT prophets.)

 

[TomL]

Nothing like sharing more apocalyptic language to describe the day of the Lord in judgment over the Israel/Judah nation in AD70. You have to recognize that Peter writes to people who will mostly be alive to encounter this situation. He was not prophesying something happening even a hundred years later. That would not have aided the people he addressed nor would there be continuity of people to that later era ( -- e.g. like people descended from that first generation who would need to be warned of doing the same evil acts -- i.e. the general basis of prophecy about the Israel people in the OT prophets.)

Well 1cor 15 cannot fit the 70 ad advent nor can John 5:25, a

Mat 25:31-46 and 2peter 3:7ff seems problematic for it as well

 

[mikesw]

Well 1cor 15 cannot fit the 70 ad advent nor can John 5:25, a

Mat 25:31-46 and 2peter 3:7ff seems problematic for it as well

Sure. I'll leave you in peace. I'm sharing what I found. It can take time to figure out what events fit where.

 

[TomL]

Sure. I'll leave you in peace. I'm sharing what I found. It can take time to figure out what events fit where.

OK

 

[Obadiah]

The Bible Helps Us To:​

1. SEE WHO GOD IS AND HOW MUCH HE LOVES US.​

It is through the Bible that we learn that God is our loving creator and constant wooer. God tells us in His Word that His love for us is deep, vast, and unchanging. The truth: He desires to be in close relationship with us, and has specifically designed us with gifts and talents that glorify Him. When we correctly view ourselves through God’s lens — we are so very loved, wanted, and valuable — we can push back on a secular world that says otherwise. The good news: Only God’s view matters!

2. UNDERSTAND WHY THE DEATH OF JESUS IS SUCH A BIG DEAL.​

The Bible, ultimately, points us to Jesus. We are to read the Bible to learn about Jesus, why we should want to follow Him, and how His death empowers us and gains us a heavenly home with Him forever. We can, with confidence, tell people, “Jesus loves you!” because of what the Bible says about His life and death. His love and sacrifice for all of humanity is shared with us via Scripture. Jesus points us to the truth, but neither forces nor manipulates anyone into accepting His open invitation.

3. KNOW GOD’S TRUTH, SO OUR LIVES HONOR AND PLEASE HIM.​

The Bible shows us how to measure “success” — it’s not fame and riches, like the world tells us — and to clearly see what matters. When we build our lives solidly on Jesus, the world can’t manipulate us with its shifting views of “truth.” The Bible is still applicable to our lives because God’s nature and standards do not change. The 10 commandments are as relevant now as they were two thousand plus years ago. Treating others with kindness is still in fashion with God, and always will be. His greatest commandment? Love God and love others.

4. GAIN A “GOD MINDSET,” WHICH WILL GUIDE OUR THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS.​

Though Satan loves to whisper in our ears that we’re screw ups, mess ups, and unlovable mistakes, that’s not what the Bible says. So let’s ignore Satan and stick with the source of truth! The Bible shows us that God knows we will fail to be perfect. Good thing He doesn’t demand perfection! But He does ask that we purpose in our hearts to daily follow and honor him. God’s grace, when we ask for forgiveness, is guaranteed. The Bible assures us that God never withholds forgiveness when asked. Wahoo! Blessed assurance! God is our loving father. Like an earthly father, He seeks the best for us. His standards and truth serve as healthy boundaries to keep us from the pain of sin.

To read the Bible is to immerse ourselves in stories that show us how God interacted with His people. Tip: A fun way to read the Old Testament is to start with an illustrated children’s Bible. The stories include wisdom we can learn from today. The story of Samson, for example, teaches us the perils of being hot-tempered and vain. In the story of David and Goliath we learn that it is God’s strength, not man’s, that should make us quiver in our boots. And after David had an affair with Bathsheba, even going so far as to murder her husband to cover his sin, we learn of the consistency of God’s forgiveness and the sweet relief of being reconciled to Him.

In the New Testament, we see Christ’s actions modeling selfless living. Psalms can be used to jump start our prayer life, and Proverbs contains rich nuggets of gold on becoming a better friend, spouse, parent, and even how to respond to our enemies.

5. LIVE COURAGEOUSLY IN OUR DARK, SECULAR WORLD.​

It’s hard being a person who seeks after God when we live in a secular world. I don’t particularly like being called a “dimwit” who needs a “crutch” to get through life. But I have to laugh when I hear those labels slung at Christians. Because compared to God, I am a dimwit. And I can think of no better crutch than Jesus, because leaning on Him guarantees my strength.

Our relationship with Jesus allows us to live with authenticity and consistency. We don’t have to play the game of pretending to have it all together, for one thing. And when we are worried about something, we can hand that fear to Him and know that He’s working on it. The Bible, over and over, promises us God’s peace when we rely on Him. God is in control!

---

The Bible is a Worthy Investment of Our Time​

As Sean McDowell notes, “The Bible has shaped western civilization more than any book ever written. No other book even comes close.” So, clearly, a lot of people have found the Bible worth reading over the centuries.

But finding the time to read it in our speedy, modern world isn’t always easy. We have so much clamoring for our attention, including television and social media. How many of us, for example, have opened Facebook, “just to check for messages,” and found ourselves, an hour or two later, still scrolling through our feed? Ack!

So how might we carve out time to read the Bible? One way might be a consistent reading time every day. You might try reading a Psalm or Proverb while you eat breakfast, for example. Or if your family eats dinner together, try adding it to your meal. What a great time to discuss the reading while you’re all still seated at the table! To help guide your Bible readings and discussion, consider signing up for our daily devotional emails. If reading together is initially difficult, try adding a Bible-based activity to family time. Who’s up for a game of Bible bingo or trivia?

The Bible is our the foundation of our faith. So EVERY Christian should read it to learn what it says. The Bible is our playbook for life. It outlines the plays as we move the ball down the field. Our reading the Bible gives God opportunities to profoundly change us.

For the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and to joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of your heart (Hebrews 4:12).

Josh McDowell