Wilber
Active member
Correct obedience is not what saves us. The blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us. Our obedience to the Gospel message "Believing" is what makes that salvation available to us.
The Importance of Obedience in Knowing God
- Thread starter Fellow Traveler
- Start date
DavidTree
Well-known member
It was not just His going to the Cross that saved us.
If Christ did not obey the Will of God correctly, He would of committed sin and died in vain.
"by one Man’s obedience the many will be constituted righteous"
Christ's obedience was correct, everyday and therefore His life was sinless and able to purchase for us Salvation.
Apart from His correct obedience there is no "Lamb that takes away the sins of the world"
The concept of obedience to the Gospel message, particularly in relation to the role of "believing," is a topic of theological discussion within Christianity. Some interpretations emphasize the importance of both believing and obeying the Gospel for salvation, while others focus primarily on the role of faith in salvation.
The search results present various perspectives on the relationship between obedience and believing in the context of the Gospel message. Some sources highlight the significance of obeying the Gospel, citing verses such as Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 to support the idea that obedience to the Gospel is essential for salvation. These perspectives emphasize that obedience to the Gospel, including belief, repentance, and baptism, is a fundamental response to God's offer of salvation.
Conversely, other sources discuss the connection between faith and obedience, emphasizing that genuine faith in Jesus Christ naturally leads to obedience to His teachings. They argue that while obedience is an important outworking of faith, salvation itself is ultimately based on faith in Christ rather than on human works or obedience to specific commands.
In summary, the relationship between obedience and believing in the context of the Gospel message is a complex and nuanced theological issue within Christianity. Different interpretations exist, with some emphasizing the essential role of obedience, including belief, in response to the Gospel message, while others underscore the centrality of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. These differing perspectives reflect ongoing discussions within Christian theology regarding the nature of salvation and the response required to receive it.
J.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Believing is the same as faith. And faith is not a mental only thing. Faith requires action, or it is not really faith. Faith that does not produce action is dead, and does not please God. Our obedience to the Gospel must include the physical actions that Scripture says lead to salvation. If it does not, then salvation is not received.
Johann, the problem you are discussing here is caused by people focusing on only one part of the Scriptures rather than the whole. If ALL Scripture is equally inspired by God (and it is), and is therefore inerrant and perfect (and it is), then belief, faith, and obedience are all equally required.
John 3:16, and many other passages, only mentions belief as a requirement of salvation.
But then Acts 3:19 says that repentance leads to being forgiven (saved). Now, is it only belief? Or is repentance also required? Obviously both.
But then Rom 10:9-10 says that belief and confession are both required and both lead to salvation.
And then Acts 2:38 says repentance and baptism are both required.
But in Mark 16:16, and this is Jesus Himself speaking, it only says that people must believe and be baptized.
What we have to realize is that all of this is from one source, one author: the Holy Spirit. He is not giving multiple instructions, but only one instruction broken up and scattered through many places in His Word to us. That is one reason that a teacher is required in Rom 10:14-15 to bring the Gospel to people. We must be studied in the Word so that we can bring the full Gospel to people, and not allow people to be deceived by just reading one passage, like John 3:16, and believe that all they have to do is give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel to become saved.
The statement "Believing is the same as faith. And faith is not a mental only thing" is a complex one that can be interpreted in different ways depending on the context and perspective. However, it is generally accepted that believing and faith are closely related concepts that involve more than just mental assent or intellectual agreement.
In the context of Christianity, for example, believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior involves not only acknowledging His existence and teachings but also trusting in Him and committing one's life to following Him. This kind of faith is often described as a personal relationship with God that goes beyond mere intellectual knowledge or adherence to religious doctrines
Similarly, faith can be seen as a holistic concept that encompasses not only the mind but also the heart, will, and actions of a person. It involves trusting in something or someone that is beyond one's own abilities or understanding and acting accordingly. This kind of faith can be seen in various aspects of life, such as personal relationships, professional pursuits, and social causes
Therefore, while believing and faith may not be exactly the same thing, they are closely related and involve more than just mental assent or intellectual agreement. They require a personal commitment and trust that goes beyond mere knowledge or understanding.
The statement "Faith without works is dead" is a biblical concept found in James 2:14-26. It emphasizes that true faith in Christ always produces good works and that good works are necessary to prove the genuineness of one's faith. The passage uses examples, such as the demons' belief and Abraham's actions, to illustrate that genuine faith is accompanied by corresponding actions. It is important to note that this does not mean that we are justified by works, but rather that genuine faith naturally results in a life characterized by good works. The verse "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26) reinforces the idea that just as a body without the spirit is lifeless, so is faith without works. This concept is not about earning salvation through works, but about the evidence of true faith through a transformed life and good works that glorify God and serve others.
Matthew 5:16 – Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:10 – For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
James 2:14–17 – What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? And if a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:26 – As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 John 5:3 – For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Matthew 16:27 – For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Romans 2:6–10 – Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life; but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.
These verses demonstrate that good works are integral to the Christian life and are a natural expression of faith. They also highlight that faith alone is insufficient without accompanying good works, as faith without works is considered dead (James 2:14–17)
I might step on toes now.
J.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Your statement that i highlighted is 100% CORRECT.
The Scripture makes CLEAR that it was Christ's obedience that SAVED us and as a result of Christ's Death/Resurrection we Believe unto Salvation.
Our obedience unto Salvation only Follows Christ's Obedience of a Sinless life and then laying down His Life as:
"the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world"
This is what is known as the 'Chicken BEFORE Eggs' TRUTH = Genesis
DavidTree
Well-known member
Very well said Brother
DavidTree
Well-known member
Biblical and in accordance with Salvation
In Christian theology, the belief that the blood of Jesus Christ is the means of salvation is based on the understanding that Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross atones for the sins of humanity. This concept is rooted in the New Testament, particularly in the writings of the apostle Paul and the author of the letter to the Hebrews. The New Testament teaches that Jesus' death and resurrection provide the basis for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God (Romans 5:8-11, Hebrews 9:11-14).
The idea that our obedience to the Gospel message, specifically through faith or "believing," is what makes that salvation available to us is also a central tenet of Christian doctrine. This is often referred to as "faith in Christ" or "faith alone" and is based on passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9, which states that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works.
In this understanding, it is not our own efforts or obedience that merit salvation, but rather it is through faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work that we receive the gift of salvation. Our response of faith and obedience to the Gospel message is what allows us to appropriate the salvation made available through Christ's sacrifice.
101G
Well-known member
yes, Belief and Faith goes hand in hand. belief set the Goal and Faith goes and get it. it is beliefs guarantee. James Moffatt translation of the New Testament scripture of Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith means we are confident of what we hope for, convinced of what we do not see".
101G.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Which is why the Scripture says: "by ONE Man's Obedience many are made righteous"
Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous.
Now that CHRIST did for us what no man could - HE says: "come follow ME"
Our obedience was PURCHASED by Christ's Obedience.
Chickens before eggs = Genesis = "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
Hosanna
Well-known member
Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Whether that expression of love finds itself in your family, your neighborhood, or the uttermost parts of the world, simply love others as you are being loved. In doing so, you will proclaim the good news "The Gospel" to all who have ears to hear it and hearts to receive it.
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Whether that expression of love finds itself in your family, your neighborhood, or the uttermost parts of the world, simply love others as you are being loved. In doing so, you will proclaim the good news "The Gospel" to all who have ears to hear it and hearts to receive it.
The phrase "by One Man's Obedience many are made righteous" refers to the central tenet of Christianity known as the Atonement, specifically the substitutionary atonement theory. According to this teaching, the obedience of Jesus Christ, culminating in His death and resurrection, provides redemption for humanity, making believers righteous before God.
This concept is rooted in the following passages from the Bible:
Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
1 Corinthians 15:21–22: "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."
Philippians 2:8: "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
In summary, the phrase "by One Man's Obedience many are made righteous" emphasizes the transformative power of Christ's sacrifice, enabling people to receive forgiveness and reconciliation with God
Shalom
J.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
op: Obedience for knowing God?
Precious friends, what then do you with this 'obedience'...:
And God { Jesus } "Never Knew them"? As they were "lacking ONE thing, faith",
Correct?
Thus, it is incorrect for Judaizers/legalists to force their 'rule' upon [ judging ] others,
today, Under Grace, requiring "faith ALWAYS shows good works" for Eternal Life, as
Clearly And Plainly "the good works arrogantly 'bragged' upon above, were, In Biblical
Fact, In Christ's Own Word: 'iniquity', Resulting In Everlasting Condemnation," eh?
That may have been Very Well True, under Christ's earthly teachings to 12 apostles of the
"law, prophecy, and covenants" to the nation of the "Twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1),
but we, According To God, Cannot "homogenize" this with, but, prayerfully and Carefully:
Rightly Divide it (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
In His Revelation Of The Mystery and Gospel Of Grace, God Requires individuals
Obedience today, Under Grace [ "...No More Of works...!" (Romans 11:6 AV) ] to:
"follow [ 1 apostle ] Paul as he follows [ The Heavenly ] Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1),
and ask, like he does: "What Saith The Scripture?" (Romans 4:3; Galatians 4:30), about:
The "Starting [ Relationship ] Point [ Apart From ALL works! ]" of individual 'members' of
The ONE Body Of Christ, and then, getting to 'know God' Who Alone Knows the heart"?:
(1 Corinthians 1:9 AV):
Q: are ALL the Eternally Saved { By Relationship With God! } going "to walk in
good works" as they should? Again, "What Saith The Pure/Preserved Scriptures?":
[ obedience, "getting to know God" In fellowship! ]:
[ Disobedient saints "out of fellowship" ]:
Please study Pure/Preserved Scriptures prayerfully And Very Carefully, For
God's Approval, Please?
Amen.
ps: Also helpful is No Other Doctrine, But...
Precious friends, what then do you with this 'obedience'...:
"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth The Will of My Father which
is in heaven.
Many will say to Me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name
done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I Never
Knew you: Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)
And God { Jesus } "Never Knew them"? As they were "lacking ONE thing, faith",
Correct?
Thus, it is incorrect for Judaizers/legalists to force their 'rule' upon [ judging ] others,
today, Under Grace, requiring "faith ALWAYS shows good works" for Eternal Life, as
Clearly And Plainly "the good works arrogantly 'bragged' upon above, were, In Biblical
Fact, In Christ's Own Word: 'iniquity', Resulting In Everlasting Condemnation," eh?
That may have been Very Well True, under Christ's earthly teachings to 12 apostles of the
"law, prophecy, and covenants" to the nation of the "Twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1),
but we, According To God, Cannot "homogenize" this with, but, prayerfully and Carefully:
Rightly Divide it (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
In His Revelation Of The Mystery and Gospel Of Grace, God Requires individuals
Obedience today, Under Grace [ "...No More Of works...!" (Romans 11:6 AV) ] to:
"follow [ 1 apostle ] Paul as he follows [ The Heavenly ] Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1),
and ask, like he does: "What Saith The Scripture?" (Romans 4:3; Galatians 4:30), about:
The "Starting [ Relationship ] Point [ Apart From ALL works! ]" of individual 'members' of
The ONE Body Of Christ, and then, getting to 'know God' Who Alone Knows the heart"?:
"faith, from the heart":
"For By Grace are ye Saved Through faith; and that not of yourselves:
It Is The Gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
(Ephesians 2:8-9 cp Romans 10:17 AV)
"belief, from the heart":
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness..."
(Romans 10:10a cp Ephesians 1:13 AV)
"trust, from the heart":
"That we should be to The Praise Of His Glory, who first trusted in
Christ. In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard The Word Of Truth,
The Gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye
were Sealed With That Holy Spirit Of Promise," (Ephesians 1:12-13 AV)
Believing/faith/trusting God, "from the heart," are All synonymous, Correct?
After which, then He Teaches 'obedience' resulting in "fellowship With Jesus Christ"(1 Corinthians 1:9 AV):
"For we are His workmanship, created In Christ Jesus unto good works, which
God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 AV)
Q: are ALL the Eternally Saved { By Relationship With God! } going "to walk in
good works" as they should? Again, "What Saith The Pure/Preserved Scriptures?":
"...if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, [ good ]
wood, hay, stubble; [ bad works ] Every man's work shall be made manifest:
for The [Judgment] Day Shall Declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is..."
[ obedience, "getting to know God" In fellowship! ]:
"...If any man's [ good ] work abide which he hath built thereupon, he
shall receive a reward..."
[ Disobedient saints "out of fellowship" ]:
"...If any man's [ bad ] work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: But..." [ What? ]:
"...he himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:12-15 AV)
[ God's Relationship! ↑ "He ALWAYS Knew them!" (2Ti 2:19; Eph 1:4-6 AV) ]
Please study Pure/Preserved Scriptures prayerfully And Very Carefully, For
God's Approval, Please?
Amen.
ps: Also helpful is No Other Doctrine, But...
Last edited:
In summary, before atoning for sins, Jesus had to take upon Himself the sins of all people, suffer the penalty for those sins, and ultimately provide a way for repentant sinners to be reconciled to God. This was made possible by His unique role as the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind.
Believe it or not brother-I get slam-dunked for using BBS-Dispentational teachings is under vehement attack!
J.
DavidTree
Well-known member
BEFORE this which you stated HE must accomplish certain things.
What did HE accomplish BEFORE His Final Act of Obedience in going to the Cross.
Last edited:
I don't mind questions-but there are questions-and THEN there are questions--
Before His final act of obedience in going to the cross, Jesus accomplished various aspects of obedience throughout His life. As a child, He obeyed His parents (Luke 2:51), and as an adult, He obeyed the Law and fulfilled all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). Throughout His life, Jesus completely fulfilled the Father’s will (John 8:29; 15:10; Hebrews 10:9). He "learned" obedience on earth by experiencing it in every situation, no matter how difficult, and was obedient to the Father, ultimately culminating in His sacrificial death on the cross. Jesus' obedience, coming through extreme suffering, qualified Him to be our eternal High Priest and the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:8–10). Jesus' obedience was not in the sense that He was prone to disobedience and had to bring rebelliousness under control, but rather in the sense of fully entering the human experience and submitting to the Father's will, even unto death
Additionally, Jesus' obedience was not limited to His passive submission on the cross. He actively obeyed His Father's precepts during the whole course of His Passion. His entire life, from birth to adulthood to death, was characterized by perfect obedience and fulfillment of the Father's will. This active obedience, along with His passive obedience on the cross, is essential for providing atonement for human transgression
In summary, before His final act of obedience in going to the cross, Jesus accomplished a life of perfect obedience, fulfilling the Father's will in every aspect of His human experience. This active and passive obedience qualified Him to be our eternal High Priest and the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him. Jesus' obedience was not limited to His suffering on the cross but encompassed His entire life, culminating in His sacrificial death for the redemption of humanity.
My apologies IF this does not answer your question
J.
Last edited:
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I agree completely, and would point out that this living, active faith must be present before salvation is received. Because as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith is the conduit or vehicle through which God sends His gift of salvation to us. And this means that there are actions man must take that lead to salvation being received. They don't "earn" salvation, nor do they carry any merrit praise from God (Luke 17:7-10), but without them salvation is not received.
