The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

[Johann]

edited for discussing another poster. Rule 2c

Forums on the internet offer anonymity. If you were to share the same space? And be able to see the person and note how they act?
You would be able to quickly discern what your best option would be in how to deal with it.

That is one thing I find on occasion frustrating with this format when things are wrong, and you keep giving the benefit of a doubt.
When otherwise, you would have distanced yourself as the correct thing to do.

edited do not discuss other posters Rule 2c. Do not discuss other posters. -I have not yet arrived so I'm still learning.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus may have shone in glory, but that is not the same thing as being glorified by the Father. Glorified by the Father making His Son to be fully functioning as God in a body over all creation. Which He will continue doing until He has made all His enemies into His footstool.

Does this mean you think the way we see Him in the Transfiguration is not the way we shall see Him in glory? I've always thought it was a prophetic glimpse into the Resurrection body. I don't see Christ actually receiving the glory at this time but is confirmation in the present of what is to come.

Is your view of the Transfiguration different?

 

[sawdust]

I don't think its prophetic. I think the Transfiguration is literally at that moment.
Jesus' Glorification is Jesus resuming his Divine functions and Divine place on His Father's Throne.
That still had not happened at His Transfiguration.
That's because His Cross, Resurrection, and Ascension had still not occurred.

If you are unsure it might pay not to discuss further lest we both just end up guessing. We did agree on the following statement that has both a now and future connotation.

Christ was revealed in His glorified state, the one He would assume upon His ascension.

I can try on a bridal gown but I'm not a bride until the day of the wedding. I see the Transfiguration much in that vein. Therefore, if His humanity has not been glorified, He must by necessity still function as a man.

I think what's really happening is that the emblazoned Uncreated Light that we see at the Transfiguration is the Holy Spirit radiating from within Christ.
We often forget that it is the Holy Spirit Who was continuously with Christ after His Baptism and throughout Christ's Functionally-Self-Emptying state.
Note that the Transfiguration happened after Jesus' Baptism.
That's very interesting because that opens up the possibility that we ourselves could be emblazoned with the Holy Spirit at our Glorification.

I cannot think of any scripture that warrants this deduction and if anything, only serves to show how reliant Christ was on the two other members of the Godhead to show forth His coming splendour.

I think you need to go back to the drawing board and rethink it.

 

[Johann]

Does this mean you think the way we see Him in the Transfiguration is not the way we shall see Him in glory? I've always thought it was a prophetic glimpse into the Resurrection body. I don't see Christ actually receiving the glory at this time but is confirmation in the present of what is to come.

Is your view of the Transfiguration different?

If you are unsure it might pay not to discuss further lest we both just end up guessing. We did agree on the following statement that has both a now and future connotation.


I can try on a bridal gown but I'm not a bride until the day of the wedding. I see the Transfiguration much in that vein. Therefore, if His humanity has not been glorified, He must by necessity still function as a man.


I cannot think of any scripture that warrants this deduction and if anything, only serves to show how reliant Christ was on the two other members of the Godhead to show forth His coming splendour.

I think you need to go back to the drawing board and rethink it.

This is where it gets dangerous-no Scripture references-and a mere reliance on the nous and not the lev.

 

[Johann]

{Note: Logos is the word form, which we get logical. Logikos has two meanings, both are applicable here. First of all means to act rationally and secondly, it also means to be spiritual.}

2a~~Also, stop being molded/conformed {suschematizo}
to this age {aion}
{meaning to stop following human viewpoint - learn the Mind
of Christ and apply His viewpoint to your Ways of life},
but be transformed
{metamorphoo - from human to divine viewpoint}
by the renewing/renovation {anakainosis}
of your mind {nous}
{means to take in doctrine and replace human viewpoint
with divine viewpoint} . . .

[Note: All humans absorb the viewpoint of their parents, teachers, pastors, friends and even enemies. When we accept their viewpoint and believe it, we metabolize that viewpoint into the norms and standards by which we live and operate. What Paul is teaching us is that we think differently from God. We need to study the Bible, believe what we study, and metabolize God's viewpoint into the norms by which we live. Then He "walks" or "operates" through us and produces Divine Good (only someone who is Divine can produce anything that is Divine). We "Walk according to the More Excellent Ways taught to us by Jesus Christ". It is His Thinking - He receives the glory!]

2b~~that you may prove/"expose the value"
{dokimazo - investigate (like gold) to see if there is value}
what the will {thelema}
of God {Theos} is . . .
namely {that the will of God} . . .
the good
{see Romans 8:28 - 'the good' will be defined} . . .
the well-pleasing/acceptable {euarestos} . . .
and the complete/perfect {teleios}
{the attainment of the objective of the plan of God}!

{Note: The purpose of spiritual growth is to determine what is God's will/purpose/design for each of us. Now that the canon of scripture is complete, the only way to determine God's will is by studying His Mind/Word. That is the beginning of spiritual growth - consistent intake of the Word.}


Romans

Chapter 12 (Continued)

{Verses 9-21: Three Commands - The General Function of Walking
in the More Excellent Ways of Jesus Christ or How to Live the
Spiritual Life - Details Described}
9a~~Your {agape} love . . .
{'should be'/'must function'} without hypocrisy.

[Note: Many so-called Christians have a smile on their face and say "Oh how I love Jesus". Then they go around and gossip and malign and stick the knife in the back of everyone they know. Their hypocrisy is obvious to all and is a great hindrance to witnessing to unbelievers! They dishonor The One whom they say they love.]

9b~~Detest {apostugeo} the evil {poneros}.

{Note: Apostugeo - apo means from the ultimate source - stugeo means to hate. This is a command to detest the evil. "Evil" is defined as anything NOT generated under the filling of the Spirit.}

9c~~Adhere {kollao} to the 'good of intrinsic value' {agathos}.

{Note: Kollao when the object is a person, it means to have cleave to - to have sexual intercourse. When the object is a principal, it means to adhere to the principal and that is how it is used here. "Good of intrinsic value" is Divine Good. It is anything generated under the filling of God the Holy Spirit. Only a Divine Being can generate Divine Good. The best we can hope to do is allow God to Work through us.}

{Royal Family Honor Code Restated}
10a~~With reference to your 'brotherly love' {philadelphia} . . .
{referring to maintaining a relaxed mental attitude -
free from mental attitude sins such as judging, maligning etc.},
{be} devoted {philostorgos}
to 'each other'/'one another of the same kind' {allelon}.

10b~~With reference to your honor {Greek word "time"},
'esteem higher than yourself'
{idiom: proegeomai literally means `lead the way' ' to go ahead'
but it means to think the other believer ahead of yourself
in the honorable way you treat them}
one another of the same kind {allelon}
{treat other believers as more mature than yourself under
your Royal Family Honor Code}.

{Note: Philostorgos is a combination of 'Love and affection' and came to mean 'devoted'.}

{Motus Operendi for Ambassador to Christ}
11a~~'With reference to application/diligence' {spoude}
{application of doctrine to circumstances in life}
do not be negligent {okneros}.

11b~~With reference to the spirit {pneuma},
boil/'be zealous'/'get hot on the idea' {zeo}
when serving {douleuo} the Lord.

12a~~With reference
to the hope/'absolute confidence' {elpis} . . .
be rejoicing {chairo}.

12b~~With reference
to 'the pressure of {undeserved} suffering' {thlipsis}
{here referring to undeserved suffering for testing
and advancement in your spiritual life},
stand-fast/'have patience'/'patiently endure' {hupomeno}.

12c~~Persist/'endure face to face with' {proskartereo}
with reference to prayer {proseuche}
{maximum exploitation of prayer is the prerogative of the spiritually
mature believer - the right to accurately discuss the situation with
God increases as your maturity increases}.

{Note: Unbelievers have no hope. In Romans, Paul reveals to us that for believers, elpis really means 'absolute confidence'. And, it means to be confident of the future. The best of living in time, the best of dying, and the best of eternity future.}

13a~~Contribute {koinoneo}
to the needs {chreia}
of the 'holy ones'/'set apart to God ones'/saints {hagios}.

13b~~Be "pursuing" {dioko}
hospitality/'love to strangers' {philoxenia}.

14a~~Speak well {eulogeo}
of those who persecute/'pursue after' {dioko}
{idiom: dioko literally 'pursue after' - a play on words}.

14b~~Keep on speaking well {eulogeo}
and do not curse {kataraomai} them.

{Note: This is a test of objectivity. When others sin and malign you and slander you or attack you in any way, keep a relaxed mental attitude and do not lash out back at them in retaliation. Part of the doctrine "Satan's man repays good with evil, the earthly man repays evil with evil, but God's man repays evil with good".}

{Emotional Depth From Doctrine in Your Soul - Harmony and Rapport}
{Rapport with Other Royal Family of God - Join with the Mood of the
Group}
15a~~Rejoice
{chairo - infinitive in the imperative mood means this is a command}
with those who rejoice.

15b~~Weep {klaio}
{also a command}
with those who weep.

{Note: It is not rapport to walk into a group of grieving believers and say WHY are you so unhappy? You might be correct, but it is the wrong situation. So a right thing in a wrong way is wrong. Rapport says it is ok to recognize the feelings of others. Next, don't be the party pooper. If others are happy, join in! Don't bring others down. That is being insensitive to the feelings of others - that is being self-centered and arrogant. But don't be superficial and be stupid about this. This is a rapport passage.}

16a~~'Be thinking' {phroneo} the same
toward 'each other'/'one another of the same kind' {allelon}.

16b~~Do not be thinking in terms
of arrogance/'high-mindedness' {hupselos},
but associate with the humble/'low-mindedness' {tapeinos}
people.

16c~~Stop "becoming what you were not before"
{ginomai - imperative mood - a negative command}
'pseudo-wise'
{phronimos - pseudos wisdom - holding an entrancing thought
and thinking you are so smart for thinking that}
'in your own estimation'
{Idiom: para heautou literally 'by yourselves'}.

{Note: If you do not have 'divine viewpoint' in your norms and standards from the intake of bible doctrine, one inserts his own viewpoint. The Romans apparently were all full of themselves - so proud of their own thoughts and concepts. Forget that. Humble oriented people understand GRACE. We are nothing, God is everything. All we can do is allow Him to work through us through our positive volition and His thinking in our soul.}

We all can learn from this.

 

[civic]

And Jesus was but refused to act as God. How could our High Priest have any hope of knowing our weaknesses (experiential knowing) if He assumed His Divine power when encountering any form of testing? God cannot be subjected to testing to evil.

James 1:13
No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Temptation to evil doesn't register with Deity. It is effectively a non event.

He wasn't tempted to do evil by God. Read your bible it was from the devil. Matt 4:1.

next

 

[civic]

Your naivety does you no justice.

ps. It is Jesus IS God. Always was, always will be.

And adam was not.

Night and day difference between the human person adam and the Divine Person Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Adam was a man. Never God.

Jesus was God who chose not to manifest Himself in ability and power as God. Something that he had the full right to be.
Jesus chose to only function and manifest Himself as a man in ability by utilizing His Soul, not His Deity to do so.

Now read what the Word of God wants to tell you....
He was not *functioning* as God!

Even though He was God, He refused to *Function* as God.

Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God
[possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God],
did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly
grasped or retained,

Rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! Philippians 2:6-8​

Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Can God die on the Cross?

1-natures do not die persons die.

2-Jesus is not a human person

3-Jesus is a Divine Person

4- Therefore a Divine Person died, not a human person

5- death is the separation of the body from the spirit/soul. Christ died according to the Scriptures. He was buried, He was raised on the 3rd day according to the scriptures and He was seen by many of 40 days.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

If you are unsure it might pay not to discuss further lest we both just end up guessing. We did agree on the following statement that has both a now and future connotation.

The only sure thing is what's been revealed by the Bible.

I can try on a bridal gown but I'm not a bride until the day of the wedding. I see the Transfiguration much in that vein. Therefore, if His humanity has not been glorified, He must by necessity still function as a man.

Although Christ had not received His resurrected Body yet and still had not ascended yet, the fullness of God's Divine nature indwelt Christ bodily (Col 2:9) starting from His Incarnation.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

In other words, the Divine Nature fully permeates the human nature in Christ. So we're not talking about Jesus functioning just as a man. In no man does the fullness of the Godhead indwell bodily except for Jesus.

Also, Jesus had received Glory and that was revealed to His Disciples at His Transfiguration so the Transfiguration was not a Prophesy.

2 Pe 1:16 For not having followed fables having been cunningly devised, but becoming eyewitnesses of the majesty of Jesus Christ, we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord.
2Pe 1:17 For He received honor and glory from God the Father, when was borne to Him a voice from the excellent glory, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
2Pe 1:18 And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.

I cannot think of any scripture that warrants this deduction and if anything, only serves to show how reliant Christ was on the two other members of the Godhead to show forth His coming splendour.

There is always a strong interaction between the three Persons of the Trinity. There is never a time when they were ever in opposition or wrath against each other.

Perichoresis is a term used to describe the unity of the Trinity. It's not a term found in the Bible but it does help to gain some view into the united interaction between the 3 Persons of the Trinity.

I think you need to go back to the drawing board and rethink it.

You didn’t comment on the following:

Does Christ's Baptism take anything away from Christ's Incarnation whereby his Divine Nature permeated his human nature?
No, not at all. His human nature was in fact permeated by his Divine Nature. Scripture confirms that.
His Personhood was still the Uncreated God Person (Word of God).
But that was not the end of the story - his Glorification had not occurred yet.

 

[synergy]

He wasn't tempted to do evil by God. Read your bible it was from the devil. Matt 4:1.

next

Correct. The Devil tried to tempt Jesus not realizing that Jesus' human nature was permeated through by his Divine Nature and Transfigured. So there was no way in h*ll that Jesus could be tempted.

 

[civic]

This is where it gets dangerous-no Scripture references-and a mere reliance on the nous and not the lev.

This is where it gets dangerous-no Scripture references-and a mere reliance on the study of others with quotes.

 

[civic]

Correct. The Devil tried to tempt Jesus not realizing that Jesus' human nature was permeated through by his Divine Nature and Transfigured. So there was no way in h*ll that Jesus could be tempted.

Impeccable like the Father and Holy Spirit. Its why God could of created 1 bazallion new adams and each one would of failed. They were no match for satan and his schemes. Its why every man sins. Only by being born again can man have victory over sin.

Another thing I find rather ironic. People will jump on board and believe Jesus defeated death, the devil and sin. They love the practical aspects of 2/3- death and the devil but make every excuse in their own lives why sin is not defeated. Just something to ponder.

I bring this up in the mens group and I get silence then all the excuses begin to flood.

As a man thinketh in his own heart so is he.

 

[Johann]

This is where it gets dangerous-no Scripture references-and a mere reliance on the study of others with quotes.

Strange-you do it all the time-but no worries, I can take this sucker punch you just threw at me.

 

[synergy]

Impeccable like the Father and Holy Spirit. Its why God could of created 1 bazallion new adams and each one would of failed. They were no match for satan and his schemes. Its why every man sins. Only by being born again can man have victory over sin.

Another thing I find rather ironic. People will jump on board and believe Jesus defeated death, the devil and sin. They love the practical aspects of 2/3- death and the devil but make every excuse in their own lives why sin is not defeated. Just something to ponder.

I bring this up in the mens group and I get silence then all the excuses begin to flood.

As a man thinketh in his own heart so is he.

We have to continuously bank on the Holy Spirit to defeat sin in our lives.

 

[civic]

Strange-you do it all the time-but no worries, I can take this sucker punch you just threw at me.

And I have allot of Scripture when I post a thread with the exception if its a video. I study every day and always have for 40 plus years.

 

[civic]

We have to continuously bank on the Holy Spirit to defeat sin in our lives.

Amen

 

[civic]

Strange-you do it all the time-but no worries, I can take this sucker punch you just threw at me.

Its very easy to point out the faults in others all the while having a blind eye to our own faults.

 

[Johann]

Its very easy to point out the faults in others all the while having a blind eye to our own faults.

This was not a attack or pointing out faults but a statement of fact.

 

[Complete]

'For what the law could not do,
in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending His Own Son
in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin,
condemned sin in the flesh:'
(Rom.8:3)

'But made Himself of no reputation,
and took upon Him the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men:'
(Php.2:7)

'For we have not an high priest
which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;
but was in all points tempted like as we are,
yet without sin.'
(Heb 4:15)