The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

e v e said:
man in eden is not man on this earth in this ape body prison
Click to expand...
this is not a ape body, but a fallen temporal body with blood. but just not in fellowship. understand the relationship between God and man never changed... he is our Father, and we are his sons... but the enjoyment of that relationship which was broken fellowship when Adam disobeyed. as said we will get new bodies when he return.... but from the beginning all that he made was "GOOD".

101G
 
101G said:
this is not a ape body, but a fallen temporal body with blood. but just not in fellowship. understand the relationship between God and man never changed... he is our Father, and we are his sons... but the enjoyment of that relationship which was broken fellowship when Adam disobeyed. as said we will get new bodies when he return.... but from the beginning all that he made was "GOOD".

101G
Click to expand...
this body and earth are not what He made.
 
e v e said:
if jesus was in a body such as yours then it was a sin body. fallen body. having or not an earthly father is not relevant to that.
Click to expand...
Let's open with what John has to say on the subject. I John 4 "2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." So why do you believe that Jesus did not come in the flesh, in the form (likeness and nature) of a man? God says in scripture that sin entered the world by way of ONE MAN, not a woman, and by sin death. The sin nature, which is not the nature of man but has corrupted God's perfect creation of man by the sin of Adam, is passed on by the father to the children. So, by not having an earthly father, Jesus did not have a sin nature. Flesh, in and of itself, that is matter, is not evil. It is the gnostic heretics that teach the flesh/matter is evil in and of itself. What does that say of God who created it?
 
Last edited:
civic said:
Athanasius (in On the Incarnation) :

“The Word was not hedged in by his body, nor did his presence in the body prevent his being present elsewhere as well. When he moved his body he did not cease also to direct the universe by his mind and might. No. The marvelous truth is, that being the Word, so far from being himself contained by anything, he actually contained all things himself…

“As with the whole, so also is it with the part. Existing in a human body, to which he himself gives life, he is still source of life to all the universe, present in every part of it, yet outside the whole; and he is revealed both through the works of his body and through his activity in the world. It is, indeed, the function of soul to behold things that are outside the body, but it cannot energize or move them. A man cannot transport things from one place to another, for instance, merely by thinking about them; nor can you or I move the sun and the stars just by sitting at home and looking at them. With the Word of God in his human nature, however, it was otherwise. His body was for him not a limitation, but an instrument, so that he was both in it and in all things, and outside all things, resting in the Father alone. At one and the same time—this is the wonder—as man he was living a human life, and as Word he was sustaining the life of the universe, and as Son he was in constant union with the Father…”
Click to expand...
I’m not sure why this topic is even up for debate with Trinitarians. Soldier on @civic. As you articulated in this thread and the other threads the son of God is eternal.
 
GeneZ said:
Not personally spiritually die...

For he was separated in our place! He never sinned. So, he never personally died spiritually .

He was "baptized" into what spiritual death produces in relation to God.
He was baptized into the effects of spiritual death as our substitute!

​
“You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. ​
“Can you drink the cup I will drink, ​
or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?” Mark 10:38​
Click to expand...
Jesus did not die spiritually. That is impossible for one and secondly its not found in scripture. He died physically. Upon His physical death He said " Father into thy hands I commit my spirit. "

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.


hope this helps !!!
 
Matthias said:
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I wonder what others think about it.

I was raised Old School: If it isn’t historical orthodox trinitarianism then it is something other than trinitarianism.

Two years ago I was active on a forum which no longer exists. There were Modalists on the forum who insisted that they were trinitarians. Not one trinitarian on the forum disagreed with them. (I did, but the trinitarians wouldn’t support me, nor would they stand up for their doctrine.) In fact, many trinitarians said that it didn’t matter; that the Trinity can be whatever we define it to be.
Click to expand...
Thats pretty sad. :(
 
civic said:
Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.
Click to expand...
Hello @civic,

'I say unto you today' is a Hebraism which is intended to give solemnity and draw attention to what is about to be said and is used widely in the Scriptures. ' shalt thou be with me in paradise' is the promise made, with it's future fulfilment guaranteed by prophetic truths.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
civic said:
Jesus did not die spiritually. That is impossible for one and secondly its not found in scripture. He died physically. Upon His physical death He said " Father into thy hands I commit my spirit. "

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.
Click to expand...
Umm, I would like to offer another thought or two on this.

Two things....

First~ I Peter 3: 18-20 talks of Jrsus' decent.

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Bible.Orgs explanation of said verses is

1 Peter 3:18-20​


Jesus Descended into Hell​

When Jesus descended into hell, he entered not Gehenna but Hades; in other words, he really died, and it was from a genuine, not a simulated death that he rose (Acts 2:31-32).

1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us briefly what Jesus did in Hades:

  • First, by his presence he made Hades into Paradise (a place of pleasure) for the penitent thief and, presumably, for all the others who died trusting him during his earthly ministry, just as he does now for the faithful departed (Luke 23:43; Phil. 1:21-23; 2 Cor. 5:6-8).
  • Second, he perfected the spirits of Old Testament believers (Heb. 12:23; 11:40), bringing them out of the gloom which Sheol (the pit) had hitherto been for them (Ps. 88:3-6, 10-12) into this same Paradise experience. This is the core of truth in the medieval fantasies of the harrowing of hell.
  • Third, “he went and preached (presumably announcing his kingdom and appointment as the world’s judge) to the spirits in prison” who had rebelled in antediluvian times (presumable the fallen angels of 2 Pet. 2:4-10 who are also the sons of God in Gen. 6:1-4). Some have based on this one text a hope that all humans who did not hear the gospel in this life, or who, having heard it, rejected it, will have it savingly preached to them in the life to come. Peter’s words provide no warrant for this inference: a first, non-saving announcement to a group of fallen angels does not imply a second saving announcement to the whole host of unsaved human dead. Had Peter believed in the latter, surely he would have said it straightforwardly.
Second ~ We all know that the original languages that the scriptures were written in had NO paragraphs, No Capitalization AND MOST IMPORTANT NO punctuation

Anyone who is on this forum, or others, knows this to be fact.

Christianity says "The original languages in which the Bible was written didn't contain any punctuation. And yet, when translators convert a biblical text from Ancient Hebrew or Greek to English, they face the dilemma of how to insert punctuation properly into Scripture.

Religious Study Center says "The book divisions occur from the fact that the Bible is a collection of many different books; the divisions into paragraphs, chapters, and verses are all artificial and were done centuries after the texts were written.

Premier Christianity Magazine says " The Bible did not fall to earth in flawless English and bound in leather. It has been translated by scholars who are tasked not only with finding the right words, but inserting punctuation too. These colons, commas and more can make a big difference to how we read the text

and even AI says" No, the original biblical texts were written in languages like Hebrew and Greek, which did not use uppercase and lowercase letters as we do today. Early manuscripts were often in all capital letters or all lowercase, without any distinction for capitalization.

Plus many more confirmations.....

So when in Luke 23:43 KJV it says Jesus siad

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Just look at the difference if that one comma was moved just one word away , to after today instead of before

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It make this a future promise allowing all that happened on that day, and until 3 days later and the resurrection to
have happened, and the thief still received his promise.

It never made sense to me that the thief went with Jesus into Heaven when we have always been told in John 3:13
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. And never made sense that Jesus might have just dropped him off and come back so we would learn what happened when the tomb was found empty.

Anyway....

Everyone have a beautifully splendid and blessed weekend and if you are in the heat.... remember last winter.
civic said:
Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.


hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
 
Yes, Biblical death has never been simply separation or cessation.

Those are not the way the Bible defines death, and will lead to many errors if someone espouses them.

When we say Jesus died—we mean died in a Biblical sense, the wages of sin.
 
Dizerner said:
Yes, Biblical death has never been simply separation or cessation.

Those are not the way the Bible defines death, and will lead to many errors if someone espouses them.

When we say Jesus died—we mean died in a Biblical sense, the wages of sin.
Click to expand...
Was Jesus not a sprit living in a mortal body? (Not speaking of the Holy)

We are spirits, we live in a body, we have a soul.

When Jesus died did not the flesh he walked on earth die also?

Then it is certain His Spirit was not in that body until it was time.

We are told that our spirits go back to God who gave them. (Some believe our souls also)

We cannot be compared to Jesus, but he did bleed when he was cut, as we do.
 
civic said:
death as in physical death of the body- a separation of the soul/spirit from the body. thats the death He died.
Click to expand...

Jesus died a BIBLICAL death.

And death in the Bible is SPIRITUAL not just physical.

Else we all pay for our own sins by physically dying, and we paid off the wages of sin.

No, we know there is a hell to come, and a hell to pay.
 
Dizerner said:
Jesus died a BIBLICAL death.

And death in the Bible is SPIRITUAL not just physical.

Else we all pay for our own sins by physically dying, and we paid off the wages of sin.

No, we know there is a hell to come, and a hell to pay.
Click to expand...
nope thats HERESY to say He died spiritually.

you espouse the word of faith heretics who teach He died spiritually.
 
civic said:
nope you are conflating them,
Click to expand...

Conflating what?

Are you asserting there are multiple kinds of death in Scripture?

Do you have a Scripture that says Jesus only died one kind of death?

Death is handled differently in Scripture than in physicalism or scientism.
 
Dizerner said:
Conflating what?

Are you asserting there are multiple kinds of death in Scripture?

Do you have a Scripture that says Jesus only died one kind of death?

Death is handled differently in Scripture than in physicalism or scientism.
Click to expand...
Do you have scripture that says

“ spiritual death “ ???????

End of discussion

you are much more calvinist in your thinking then you lead us to believe. this is just another example where you line up as a calvinist.

spiritual death is synonymous with total depravity and original sin, guilt
 
Last edited:
civic said:
“ spiritual death “ ???????
Click to expand...

You're evading the question I asked you by asking me a question instead.

Even if I cannot answer that does not make your question simply go away, it's a cheap debate trick.

But yes, there are a lot of Scriptural references to death as spiritual actually.

It is called the Second Death in Scripture, because it is the real and actual death of which the physical represents.

Anyway, I've come to see you as a dishonest interlocutor, so I will wait for someone with real interest and integrity to respond.
 

Similar threads

Richard
Could Jesus Sin?
2
Replies
37
Views
430
Hosanna
Hosanna
civic
The Virgin Birth
4 5 6
Replies
114
Views
1K
Tothalordbeallglory
T
John Evens
Jesus in the Old Testament
3 4 5
Replies
86
Views
748
Olde Tymer
Olde Tymer
Johann
5 Non-Negotiables from the Church Fathers on the Incarnation
6 7 8
Replies
154
Views
2K
101G
101G
FreeInChrist
Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination
Replies
11
Views
50
civic
civic
Back
Top Bottom