The Hyper Calvinist

[TibiasDad]

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Let’s see, is there any exclusion to “everyone” or “on them all”…?

Doug

 

[atpollard]

I will add to the above a hyper calvinists is one who declares TULIP is the gospel.

Why do you get to add definitions to terms?

What in "TULIP" is synonymous with any of the other definitions of "Hypercalvinism"?
What is gained by creating a strawman that redefines "Calvinism" (often defined as synonymous with TULIP) with "Hyper-Calvinism"? You have no need of a prefix (Hyper-) if you are going to redefine Hyper-Calvinism = Calvinism = TULIP.

 

[civic]

Why do you get to add definitions to terms?

What in "TULIP" is synonymous with any of the other definitions of "Hypercalvinism"?
What is gained by creating a strawman that redefines "Calvinism" (often defined as synonymous with TULIP) with "Hyper-Calvinism"? You have no need of a prefix (Hyper-) if you are going to redefine Hyper-Calvinism = Calvinism = TULIP.

It came from a Calvinist

 

[brightfame52]

Let’s see, is there any exclusion to “everyone” or “on them all”…?

Doug

Yes, the all there are the elect out from amongst both the jews and the gentiles. Also the Mercy Paul is speaking of is Salvation Mercy, it saves them He had Mercy upon, He regenerates and saves them according to Mercy Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

God doesnt have mercy on all mankind without exception, what about the vessels of wrath in distinction to the vessels of Mercy he just wrote about in Chapter 9 Rom 9:20-24

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Do you really suppose that God all of the sudden changed His Mind and Purpose and just has mercy on all mankind, including the vessels of wrath ?

And Gods Mercy is confined to a remnant , an elect remnant Micah 7:18

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

 

[TomL]

Let’s see, is there any exclusion to “everyone” or “on them all”…?

Doug

Only in Calvinist theology.

 

[atpollard]

Only in Calvinist theology.

God has mercy on everyone without exception, That’s universalism, Patrick!

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes, the all there are the elect out from amongst both the jews and the gentiles. Also the Mercy Paul is speaking of is Salvation Mercy, it saves them He had Mercy upon, He regenerates and saves them according to Mercy Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

God doesnt have mercy on all mankind without exception, what about the vessels of wrath in distinction to the vessels of Mercy he just wrote about in Chapter 9 Rom 9:20-24

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Do you really suppose that God all of the sudden changed His Mind and Purpose and just has mercy on all mankind, including the vessels of wrath ?

And Gods Mercy is confined to a remnant , an elect remnant Micah 7:18

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Simple grammar tells us that the “on them all” refers directly back to those who were “bound to disobedience”. (And the reverse is equally true.)


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

God has mercy on everyone without exception, That’s universalism, Patrick!

ἐλεήσῃ is in the subjective mood, which shows potential for salvation, not a completed action. He did one thing so that he could then do another.

The important thing is there is no exclusive subset linked to the potential for mercy, it is for the whole segment that was “bound in disobedience!” Syntax is a killer…


Doug

 

[atpollard]

ἐλεήσῃ is in the subjective mood, which shows potential for salvation, not a completed action. He did one thing so that he could then do another.

The important thing is there is no exclusive subset linked to the potential for mercy, it is for the whole segment that was “bound in disobedience!” Syntax is a killer…


Doug

Perhaps (I can neither confirm nor refute your claims of the Greek), however, you asked a question …

Let’s see, is there any exclusion to “everyone” or “on them all”…?

… and the answer (based upon your denial of Universalism) is “Yes, there is an exclusion.”
(Which brings us back to to the 500 year old Arminian vs Calvinist debate over WHY all are not saved.)

Just for the record, you don’t need to work to convince any Classic Arminian or Calvinist that people disobey. The debate tends to be over WHO and WHY of obedience.

 

[TibiasDad]

Perhaps (I can neither confirm nor refute your claims of the Greek), however, you asked a question …

You said:

God has mercy on everyone without exception, That’s universalism, Patrick!

to which I replied:

“ἐλεήσῃ is in the subjective mood, which shows potential for salvation, not a completed action. He did one thing so that he could then do another.” Which refutes your interpretation of it meaning “God has mercy on everyone without exception. That’s universalism…”

It is not universalism, meaning all men will be saved, but it is a universal potential (thus the Subjective mood) for all men being saved. It doesn’t mean all will be saved, it means God is willing to save all men if they believe and repent.

… and the answer (based upon your denial of Universalism) is “Yes, there is an exclusion.”

There is no exclusion in that verse all men, without exception, were “bound in disobedience” so that God may be able to have mercy on all of them (those bound in disobedience).

Just for the record, you don’t need to work to convince any Classic Arminian or Calvinist that people disobey. The debate tends to be over WHO and WHY of obedience.

I haven’t made such an argument!


Doug