The Gospel of Twelve Thrones

[TibiasDad]

Boy, are you so very wrong.

Sometimes, just ask my wife, but not this time!

You don't get to command the Holy Spirit that upon every unbeliever you share Jesus with is going to become convicted of sin and turn to Jesus.

Firstly, I have never “commanded the Holy Spirit”. Secondly, all of us, as a general rule, experience guilt when we know we have done something wrong and are confronted about it. We may or may not acknowledge this or repent of it, but we feel the guilt nonetheless, and continue to do so until our hearts become so calloused that our response to the Spirit is almost automatically negative.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned 1 Corinthians 2:14.

1 Cor 2:6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived” —the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.


The message that “cannot be understood “ are the things of the Spirit meant for “the mature” believers, not those without the Spirit/unbelievers.

This is not the gospel; the message of right and wrong, good and evil, guilt and innocence. These are “the deep things of God.” 2:10

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Every born-again believer is "commissioned" to function in some way to God, and it is not always to preach Jesus to unbelievers.

I have never said that every believer is given the gift of evangelism. Nor, is what we do always about unbelievers.

The gifts of the Spirit are not given to believers to waste their gifts on unbelievers.

Evangelism/Evagelists is a gift of the Spirit, and that is primarily for unbelievers but can also be for the spiritual renewal of believers too.

Christ died for sinners/the ungodly. And as you have pointed out, Romans 3 is about the fact that “all have sinned” and are ungodly.


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sometimes, just ask my wife, but not this time!

Firstly, I have never “commanded the Holy Spirit”. Secondly, all of us, as a general rule, experience guilt when we know we have done something wrong and are confronted about it. We may or may not acknowledge this or repent of it, but we feel the guilt nonetheless, and continue to do so until our hearts become so calloused that our response to the Spirit is almost automatically negative.

Actually, you did.

You said: "When an unbeliever is told the truth by a believer, the Holy Spirit convicts us of the truth about ourselves."

The Spirit doesn't speak to us 100% of the time. The flesh is constantly against the Spirit. I think you listen to your flesh more.

1 Cor 2:6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived” —the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.


The message that “cannot be understood “ are the things of the Spirit meant for “the mature” believers, not those without the Spirit/unbelievers.

This is not the gospel; the message of right and wrong, good and evil, guilt and innocence. These are “the deep things of God.” 2:10

Doug

The deep things of God is what's written in His Word. The more you know of His Word them more opportunity He will speak to you. When you hold on to false belief not so much.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I have never said that every believer is given the gift of evangelism. Nor, is what we do always about unbelievers.



Evangelism/Evagelists is a gift of the Spirit, and that is primarily for unbelievers but can also be for the spiritual renewal of believers too.

Christ died for sinners/the ungodly. And as you have pointed out, Romans 3 is about the fact that “all have sinned” and are ungodly.


Doug

Primarily for unbelievers? You obviously hold to men's doctrine than the Scripture:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Why?

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:11–12.

It's not for UNbelievers. These five Gift Ministries are not for unbelievers.
Learn something.

 

[TibiasDad]

Primarily for unbelievers? You obviously hold to men's doctrine than the Scripture:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Why?

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:11–12.

It's not for UNbelievers. These five Gift Ministries are not for unbelievers.
Learn something.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Everyone is an unbeliever until they believe the gospel. That is the great commission. The “work of the ministry “ begins with preaching the gospel to unbelievers. Yes, we then work to “make disciples of those who believe, but there is no “work of the ministry” to believers sans the preaching of the gospel to unbelievers. That is the primary purpose of the gift of evangelism and preaching.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The Spirit doesn't speak to us 100% of the time.

He certainly did to me, not that I always listened or cared about his message; but he was always speaking through the gospel.

Besides, my earlier statement said nothing about “commanding the Holy Spirit” to do anything. But “…when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:” (John 16:8)

That is the Spirit’s function in the world!


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Everyone is an unbeliever until they believe the gospel. That is the great commission. The “work of the ministry “ begins with preaching the gospel to unbelievers. Yes, we then work to “make disciples of those who believe, but there is no “work of the ministry” to believers sans the preaching of the gospel to unbelievers. That is the primary purpose of the gift of evangelism and preaching.

Doug

Israel's Messiah is Promised to the Hebrew people who are ALREADY in covenant with God for their redemption.

First, you're quoting Mark 16:15. Mark 16:9-20 are seen by many scholars as having been added later and by a different author.

Second, I see you are dishonest with Scripture. Saul wrote Ephesians and said the Gift Ministries (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher) are TO and FOR the body of Christ. Instead of accepting the truth of what he said you look for a passage you think will support your position. That's dishonest. When I find two seeming contradictory passages that tells me I need to study deeper in order to resolve the seeming contradiction. You don't do that.

Third, if we take Mark 16:9-20 as written by Mark, then we must understand that Jesus was addressing the eleven disciples, NOT YOU and NOT ME. You weren't alive when He commanded HIS ELEVEN DISCIPLES. Why are YOU inserting yourself into the text? Jesus wasn't speaking to you. So, what you are doing is teaching that we are ALL supposed to preach the gospel to all creation thus teaching we are ALL apostles with this command. That position flies in the face of what Saul said before:

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1 Corinthians 12:29.

The answer is "NO, we are NOT ALL apostles." But by posting your Mark passage tells me you don't believe the Holy Spirit who spoke through Saul and rather instead hold to modern Gentile belief of the Bible that also comes across from thousands and thousands of church pulpit that tells everyone in their congregation they HAVE TO go out and preach the gospel thereby teaching that everyone is an apostle and everyone is the mouth in the body of Christ. Where is the eye or the hand or the foot if every Christian is a mouth? Bad theology. And you hold to it. I prefer to call it false theology. But all false theology is bad theology, and all bad theology is false. And you hold to it.

Fourth, you are quoting from Matthew (or trying to):

YOU SAID: "Yes, we then work to “make disciples of those who believe, but there is no “work of the ministry” to believers sans the preaching of the gospel to unbelievers."

Mathew says:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19.

Now, if we take Jesus' instruction to His eleven disciples as a ministry to "teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" as ministry to the Jews living in Gentile nations, those who are of the Jewish Diaspora, then they would be teach Jews and mixed-race Jews who have had offspring with various Gentile nation citizens, and baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" and everything is great because Jesus died for ONLY the Jews who are the people under the Law, God's Law, but you want to teach all nations regardless if they are believers or not and try to disciple goats and make them sheep. That's NOT what Jesus is saying. Acts gives us more information:

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8.

There are millions of Jews living in Gentile lands who never knew their Promised Messiah had come - and gone - and to whom God wants this message to get to them living in these places He scattered them 700-plus years earlier. When Jesus said this, He was on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. Jesus instructs the eleven to witness to Jews west, or at Jerusalem, south, or in Judaea, north, or in Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth, or east towards Mesopotamia and the Orient. Why? Because that's exactly where God scattered His people through the Assyrian and Babylonian Conquest of His people.

Again, I post what Saul said under the anointing of the Holy Spirit of Truth:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:11–12.

These ministries as well as the spiritual gifts are given to the Church FOR the Church and Not for the perfecting of the world, or the work of the world, or the edification of the world.

The Spirit gives us spiritual gifts and ministries TO and FOR the body of Christ NOT THE WORLD.

Now pay attention and hear the Word of the Lord:

27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD,
Searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Proverbs 20:27.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Matthew 5:15.

This house is the house of God aka the Church. And...

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:16.

When a person exercises their spiritual gifts among believers in the fellowship ONLY BELIEVERS will see your good works and glorify [your] Father which is in heaven."

Unbelievers who do not have the Holy Spirit are spiritually discerned (judged) and will not say anything to glorify God who is NOT their father. They have the enemy of God as their father.

You are so full of false doctrine I already see the Scripture applied to your error will not give you pause or correction. Saul tells us who the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher is given to:

The Church, the Body of Christ.

And you reject this.

 

[jeremiah1five]

He certainly did to me, not that I always listened or cared about his message; but he was always speaking through the gospel.

Besides, my earlier statement said nothing about “commanding the Holy Spirit” to do anything. But “…when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:” (John 16:8)

That is the Spirit’s function in the world!


Doug

If the Spirit is speaking to you then why don't you believe Saul? He says the Gift Ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher are given TO and FOR the Body of Christ - NOT UNBELIEVERS:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, hprophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:11–12.

But you teach and practice these Gift Ministries are for unbelievers, for the unbelieving world. .
The world is the enemy of the Father:

15 Love not the [unbelieving] world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15.

If you love the world you are treasonous to the Father of Lights. To love God's enemy is treasonous.
That's you who claim the things of the Spirit are for God's enemy the world.
Talk about being a traitor.

 

[TibiasDad]

That's you who claim the things of the Spirit are for God's enemy the world.

I said the gospel, the good news of salvation in Christ is for the whole world, the instructions Paul was referring to are for the mature believer and cannot be understood by anyone who doesn’t have the Spirit.

The gospel itself is meant for all, though is rejected by many for varying reasons; the Jews find it a stumbling block, and to the Greek (non-Jewish) it is foolishness (after all, dead people don’t raise themselves from the dead!) But all will be saved if they believe!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Third, if we take Mark 16:9-20 as written by Mark, then we must understand that Jesus was addressing the eleven disciples, NOT YOU and NOT ME.

This doesn’t surprise me from you! And it seals the lack of logical reasoning of which you are capable. Because he was addressing a limited number of people doesn’t mean it was intended exclusively for them. If this were necessarily true, then none of the scriptures are meant for anyone else besides the specific set of people to which it was addressed! You and I are left hopeless.

Secondly, Mark’s rendition is not thematically different from Matthew and Luke’s commissioned accounts. I understand the textual criticism of the passage, but nothing in it contradicts any other teaching by the other gospel writers.


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

I said the gospel, the good news of salvation in Christ is for the whole world, the instructions Paul was referring to are for the mature believer and cannot be understood by anyone who doesn’t have the Spirit.

The gospel itself is meant for all, though is rejected by many for varying reasons; the Jews find it a stumbling block, and to the Greek (non-Jewish) it is foolishness (after all, dead people don’t raise themselves from the dead!) But all will be saved if they believe!

Doug

The gospel of Israel's Promised Messiah is not for the whole world. The whole world was never under God's Law. God's Law was given specifically to the children of Israel in then desert at the time of Moses and the Tabernacle.
Do you deny this?

The so-called "stumbling block" that had some Jews twisted was the fact that Jesus died on a wooden cross and to the Jews anyone who 'hung on a tree was cursed.' To them how could their Messiah from God be also cursed by God being hung on a tree?
But that issue will still be addressed before Christ's return.

What you are doing is stealing another peoples' inheritance. It was never Gentiles to begin with. And you are practicing a form of Replacement Theology which is straight from the pit of hell.

Show me a passage in the Pentateuch where God makes covenant with Gentiles and that the sacrificial commands upon Israel is also for the Gentiles.
Show me the Scripture.
I know you can't and you won't. That's because it doesn't exist.
Israel's Promised Messiah, a man named Yeshua bar Yosef is Israel's to receive. And in God's timetable they will.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This doesn’t surprise me from you! And it seals the lack of logical reasoning of which you are capable. Because he was addressing a limited number of people doesn’t mean it was intended exclusively for them. If this were necessarily true, then none of the scriptures are meant for anyone else besides the specific set of people to which it was addressed! You and I are left hopeless.

Secondly, Mark’s rendition is not thematically different from Matthew and Luke’s commissioned accounts. I understand the textual criticism of the passage, but nothing in it contradicts any other teaching by the other gospel writers.


Doug

You don't get it. (Edit- personal attack)…You a Gentile is stealing Israel's inheritance. The Word of God is for our training and admonition. If anything, you should understand Acts 13. But you don't.
And you will go on your merry way continuing to teach and tell others to steal Israel's inheritance with you.

 

[TibiasDad]

Show me a passage in the Pentateuch where God makes covenant with Gentiles and that the sacrificial commands upon Israel is also for the Gentiles.

Your argument is a logical fallacy; it doesn’t matter if it is in the Pentateuch or not, it is in the Prophets and Psalms:

Psalms 9:11Sing the praises of the LORD, enthroned in Zion; proclaim among the nations what he has done.

Psalms 96:7Ascribe to the LORD, all you families of nations, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength.

Psalms 117:1Praise the LORD, all you nations; extol him, all you peoples.

Psalms 102:15 The nations will fear the name of the LORD, all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.

Isa66:19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations.


Esther 8:17 In every province and in every city to which the edict of the king came, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.


Remember that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

Your argument is a logical fallacy; it doesn’t matter if it is in the Pentateuch or not, it is in the Prophets and Psalms:

It certainly does matter if Gentile-inclusion as beneficiary of covenantal promises God made to Israel also include Gentiles because of the Ceremonial Law instructing and commanding worship and sacrifices to God whose purpose was and is at that time to atone the sins of the Hebrew people - even if it was temporary and for one year. It matters because Jesus said He did not come to destroy (or change the Law) but to fulfill, and if Gentiles were to be atoned along with Israel the Gentiles would have to be a part of the sacrificial offerings for sin because if they were not, then they could not be added later by Jesus or God for then Jesus would not be fulfilling the Law but changing it by adding Gentiles - something He cannot do nor can God do this.
Gentiles were never under the Law of God and were never atoned by the sacrifice of the Son of God on His cross at Calvary. Saul states:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we [Jews] might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

The only people under the Law of God are the children of Israel. And that's who was redeemed by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalms 9:11Sing the praises of the LORD, enthroned in Zion; proclaim among the nations what he has done.

Nations does not always mean Gentiles. In Genesis 17 God identifies the descendants of Abraham as "nation" or "nations." They can also be referring to Ishamel's descendants and Esau's descendants. And when the word was first used it was also used to identify the "nation" of Israel. And by the way, Hebrews are NOT Gentile. And your passage is addressing Zion not Gentiles. The descendants of Ishmael and Esau have been blessed by God, but the blessings and promises are inherited by Jacob's descendants. This is why they sing praises to the Lord in front of Abraham's other descendants.

Psalms 96:7Ascribe to the LORD, all you families of nations, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength.
Psalms 117:1Praise the LORD, all you nations; extol him, all you peoples.
Psalms 102:15 The nations will fear the name of the LORD, all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.
Isa66:19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations.
Esther 8:17 In every province and in every city to which the edict of the king came, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.
Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Remember that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”
Doug

You just don't know what you're talking about. I'd rather you just acknowledge Gentiles were never under the Law and never under the Law regarding atonement for sin. Thus, when Jesus came and died on His cross He died to atone the sins of the children of Israel:

The New Covenant between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour (member of a different tribe), and every man his brother (member of the same tribe), saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:33–34.

No mention of Gentiles. You hold to false teaching that seeks to add Gentiles to Israel's Messiah's sacrifice for sins. Jesus came to fulfill NOT ADD Gentiles under His blood.

I asked a six-year-old if they understood this passage above, I asked questions and after a few questions he said "Why you asking me? It says right there."

What are you? In your 50s? 60s? Older? Are you going to tell me a six-year-old understands Jesus' atonement and you don't?

 

[TibiasDad]

You just don't know what you're talking about. I'd rather you just acknowledge Gentiles were never under the Law and never under the Law regarding atonement for sin. Thus, when Jesus came and died on His cross He died to atone the sins of the children of Israel:

Rom 2:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares….
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.


God approves the one who keeps the law, not the one who was given the law. The Jew who breaks the law given to him, will be condemned by the Gentiles who wasn’t given the law yet keeps it, showing it has been written on his heart by God!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

You hold to false teaching that seeks to add Gentiles to Israel's Messiah's sacrifice for sins. Jesus came to fulfill NOT ADD Gentiles under His blood.

…For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Rom 9:6

That means that some who are truly Israel are not physically descended from Israel; that means they are those born apart physically from Israel , meaning they are Gentiles/non-Jews! Biology is irrelevant to the love of God for the fallen race called Man!

Abraham was not born Jewish, he became Jewish when he believed God would make him the father of many nations. We only become truly Jewish when we believe that God will keep his promises!

Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

Rom 2:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares….
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.


God approves the one who keeps the law, not the one who was given the law. The Jew who breaks the law given to him, will be condemned by the Gentiles who wasn’t given the law yet keeps it, showing it has been written on his heart by God!

Doug

I see you are using a corrupt translation translated from the Westcott & Hort Greek. The word is not "Gentile" it's Greek. "To the Jew and to the Greek" and the word "Greek" in Greek is the word "Hellens" which identifies Greek-speaking, Greek-living Jews. This is supported by Saul's referencing "the Law" and "circumcision" which all Jews that are not remaining among the Diaspora are as Jewish men. Circumcised.

You're doing what Gentiles typically do, and that is take what belongs to the Jew and make it Gentile. Saul is writing to Jews and Jewish Christians at Rome (and Italy.) You see, it was Jews who founded the Jewish Church at Rome:

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 2:8–11.

All of these languages that the eleven disciples were speaking are the various languages and dialects in Grecian territories and other Gentile lands from where many Jews left to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover and the Feast of Harvest some 50 days later. The Word of God was never given to Gentiles. The Law, the Psalms and the Prophets prove this, and now that Israel entered the New Covenant era the letters were all written to Jews and Jewish Christians, such as Hebrews or James' letter to the twelve tribes scattered to help them understand the "new thing" God was doing in the earth - not world, EARTH! (Earth refers to the Holy Land.)

But nice try. God never made covenant with Gentiles and Gentiles are outside the grace of God. 39 "books" of the Hebrew Scripture and 27 letters and gospels with a Revelation written to the Jew and also to the Hellenized Jew.

 

[jeremiah1five]

…For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Rom 9:6

That means that some who are truly Israel are not physically descended from Israel; that means they are those born apart physically from Israel , meaning they are Gentiles/non-Jews! Biology is irrelevant to the love of God for the fallen race called Man!

Abraham was not born Jewish, he became Jewish when he believed God would make him the father of many nations. We only become truly Jewish when we believe that God will keep his promises!

Doug

Read it in context and don't cut out important passages. That's being dishonest with God and His Word:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were eaccursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Saul goes on to describe who he has in mind when he said verse 6 above: The two seed of Abraham: Ishmael (of the flesh) and Isaac (of the spirit.)

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:1–13.

Ishmael and Isaac
Esau and Jacob.
Children of the flesh and children of the spirit/promise.

Romans 9 is not about Gentiles. It's about Abraham's seed.

Verse 4 describes Israel.
Verse 4 describes the totality of the LORD'S salvation:

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,

Christ came to Israel. Verse 5.

The baptist says:

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:31.

Israel, NOT GENTILES.

 

[TibiasDad]

Read it in context and don't cut out important passages. That's being dishonest with God and His Word:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were eaccursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Saul goes on to describe who he has in mind when he said verse 6 above: The two seed of Abraham: Ishmael (of the flesh) and Isaac (of the spirit.)

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:1–13.

Ishmael and Isaac
Esau and Jacob.
Children of the flesh and children of the spirit/promise.

Romans 9 is not about Gentiles. It's about Abraham's seed.

Verse 4 describes Israel.
Verse 4 describes the totality of the LORD'S salvation:

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,

Christ came to Israel. Verse 5.

The baptist says:

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:31.

Israel, NOT GENTILES.

Okay, I guess I’ll have to do it the long way:

1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Paul is always concerned and longing for his people, the Jewish people, his “race” genealogically speaking, who have yet to believe that Jesus is the Messiah long foretold.

(We would be no different wanting especially for our immediate family to know Christ, not discounting others outside of our genetic pool to know him as well.)

His people are, after all, the ones to whom God gave the commandments and teachings and covenants, and the family line of the Messiah. Of course he is wanting them to be saved.

6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Paul’s answering an unspoken rhetorical question, namely, if all Jews are not saved, then has God failed to keep his promise? Paul says ‘Of course not; because not all who are “Israel” are of Jewish descent’…


7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

God’s family is not a genetic construct but one of a belief in a promise, despite the the odds against it, for God said,“At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” And “Abraham believed God”, and that belief was counted as righteousness.

It doesn’t matter what your genetic line is, what matters is do you believe God’s promise. Anyone is capable of believing in God’s promises.

To be continued…


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Read it in context and don't cut out important passages. That's being dishonest with God and His Word:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were eaccursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Saul goes on to describe who he has in mind when he said verse 6 above: The two seed of Abraham: Ishmael (of the flesh) and Isaac (of the spirit.)

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:1–13.

Ishmael and Isaac
Esau and Jacob.
Children of the flesh and children of the spirit/promise.

Romans 9 is not about Gentiles. It's about Abraham's seed.

Verse 4 describes Israel.
Verse 4 describes the totality of the LORD'S salvation:

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,

Christ came to Israel. Verse 5.

The baptist says:

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:31.

Israel, NOT GENTILES.

Rom 9:10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God’s sovereign choice is that God can do whatever he wants to do however he wants to do it. He chose to use a hundred year old man and a ninety year old woman to start his “people”; which doesn’t make any sense to mere mortals! Likewise, he balks at human protocols with Jacob and Esau, because the firstborn is the special child who is given the bulk of the estate and thus the prominent figure of the next generation, but God chose to exalt the second born son as his vehicle of choice to accomplish his purposes.

It is not by human choice but by God’s design that we become children of promise.

Continues later…

Doug