The fallacy of eternity being a timeless state.

[Jim]

Then why don’t we live hundreds of years anymore. Would Adam have died if he hadn’t sinned?

If he hadn't sinned, he would not have been ejected from the Garden. If he hadn't been ejected from the Garden he would have continued to have access to the tree of life and not die.

I understand that it is possible that he would have eventually died, but wouldn’t we have all been more akin to Methuselah in our time on earth if Adam’s sin was of no effect on our length of life? It’s not the fact of death to which I necessarily object, it is the effect of sin on the hastening of the body’s decay.

I do not know why those early men were said to have lived for hundreds of years and we die before 120 years. And no one else does either since the reason for the difference is not given. We do know that those who are said to have lived for hundreds of years also sinned because the Bible says so.

The effect of Adam’s sin was twofold: it separated us from God, and it introduced the toxicity of sin into the world's experience.

Doug

First, Adam's sin did not separate us from God. We do that ourselves when we sin. Second, Adam's sin didn't do anything more than introduce it. Any effects on the rest of us is due to our own sin. It is true that the sins of one can and does affect the lives of others but only in a physical sense and not in a spiritual sense.

 

[TibiasDad]

Confessing has become a ritual with very little substance. Confession is more than empty compliance

That may be true, but I am not in a position to adjudicate that claim. If confession is true, then the consistency of behavior will increasingly express repentance, otherwise it is a moot point.

There is a "Lord" phase of a relationship with God but it must move beyond this phase. I'm not saying that God stops being Lord of our lives. I am saying that the goal is to agree with God. To walk together inseparably the same.

Indeed, the closeness of relationship should increase with time, but there must come a time when we realize within ourselves that “Yes, Lord, your servant is listening!”, becomes the only answer to his inquiry. It becomes an act of love and holy desire of motivation rather than a mere keeping the rules or maintaining peace and harmony.

We learn what that "image" is through the experience of seeking God.

It’s more than just seeking God, it is being willingly submissive to his will, a “not my will, but yours be done” becoming an increasingly consistent way of thinking.

This process is sanctification, and in Wesleyan theology, to reach this level of consistency is the earmark of what we term entire sanctification.

So when someone wants to try to create a "list" to pleasing God. It is only "cliff notes" to me. The experiences and understanding of another with little to no understanding.

When we frame things in a top/down manner, then list making is the norm; however, if it is framed as a love/relational process the idea of lists are less foundational to our thinking and is replaced by a desire to express our love to him.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

That may be true, but I am not in a position to adjudicate that claim. If confession is true, then the consistency of behavior will increasingly express repentance, otherwise it is a moot point.

Repentance dependents upon the approval of God. Many people are sorry only because they got caught or someone knows about what they did. God doesn't "fall" for such pretense. Godly sorrow is required. It is the attitude of the heart that pleases God. Not some mere commitment to change.

Indeed, the closeness of relationship should increase with time, but there must come a time when we realize within ourselves that “Yes, Lord, your servant is listening!”, becomes the only answer to his inquiry. It becomes an act of love and holy desire of motivation rather than a mere keeping the rules or maintaining peace and harmony.

I agree but seeking is more than listening. Just making the point.

It’s more than just seeking God, it is being willingly submissive to his will, a “not my will, but yours be done” becoming an increasingly consistent way of thinking.

Submission between the Father and Son isn't the submission we experience between our own wills and the Father's will.

We must not pretend with God. I'd say it needs to become "I don't know what I want". I can only know what I want by knowing what you want.

This process is sanctification, and in Wesleyan theology, to reach this level of consistency is the earmark of what we term entire sanctification.

To me, that is nothing more that so called "sanctification for the sake of sanctification". "Setting ourselves apart" Is knowing God more. We must work to know God. Seeking is work. Faith seeks God for things we don't know while trusting Him for answers to things we don't even know to ask.

When we frame things in a top/down manner, then list making is the norm; however, if it is framed as a love/relational process the idea of lists are less foundational to our thinking and is replaced by a desire to express our love to him.

Doug

The information needed is so vast that "lists" could never replace the endless struggle of our will to know Him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

First, Adam's sin did not separate us from God. We do that ourselves when we sin. Second, Adam's sin didn't do anything more than introduce it. Any effects on the rest of us is due to our own sin. It is true that the sins of one can and does affect the lives of others but only in a physical sense and not in a spiritual sense.

Adam wasn't the first to sin. Satan was. His sin spread to other angels that "kept not" their first estate. To say such wasn't "spiritual" is impossible for me to believe.

When we sin, sometimes it only hurts us but many times it has consequences far beyond us. We are the reason some people do not have the knowledge of God.

1Co 15:34 Sober up as you should, and stop sinning! For some have no knowledge of God – I say this to your shame!

 

[Jim]

Adam wasn't the first to sin. Satan was.

Adam was the first human being to sin (Rom 5:12). And his sin was not the cause of your sin.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I don't think I fully understand what you are trying to say there. I don't think the body becomes corrupted by sin; It can but that is not the primary problem with sin.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

In 1 Corinthians 6:18, Paul makes a distinct theological argument regarding the impact of sexual sin compared to other transgressions. While the Bible doesn't describe a physical "medical" change, it describes a profound spiritual and relational impact on the body.

Here is how the passage and its context explain what happens to the body, and it is not pretty.

1. Sinning Against One’s Own Body​

The verse states: "Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexual sinner sins against his own body." Unlike other sins (such as theft or lying) which primarily affect external objects or other people, Paul argues that sexual sin involves a misuse of the self. It is described as a violation of the body’s intended purpose and design.

2. A Violation of Union​

The surrounding context is vs 15-17 explains that for a believer, the body is a "member of Christ."

We have The Uniting Effect: Where Paul argues that sexual intimacy creates a "one flesh" union. When this occurs outside of its intended design, it creates a spiritual and physical bond that contradicts the believer's union with Christ.

We also have The Compromised Connection: By joining the body to something "unholy," the person is essentially dragging their connection with Christ into an illicit union.

3. Desecration of the Temple​

But the very worst IMO is the very next verse (1 Cor 6:19) provides the "why" behind the impact on the body:

"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?"
In this the body is not just a vessel; it is sacred space. Sexual sin is treated as a form of sacrilege treating a holy temple like a common or profane place.

So @Jim, do you still hang onto this belief?????? " I don't think the body becomes corrupted by sin; It can but that is not the primary problem with sin. "

Just sayin.....