The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man

[jeremiah1five]

You are the one that made that accusation first. I assume you are including yourself in that. I am just agreeing with you.

I said you add to the Bible and I proved it.
You claim non-Hebrews are part of the Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New) for their salvation and redemption but there is no Scripture in the Old Testament of a God-non-Hebrew salvation covenant nor are non-Hebrew Gentiles included in any of the three Hebrew covenants.
You can't produce Scriptural evidence of a covenant between God and non-Hebrews for their salvation as the covenant of salvation God made with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. The Abrahamic Covenant is found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17, and there are no non-Hebrews named, mentioned or included in this covenant.
The Mosaic Covenant God made with Abraham's seed and descendants, a people called the children of Israel in the desert at the time of the earthly Tabernacle is recorded throughout Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy and there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned or included in this covenant; and the New Covenant between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah is recorded in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in this covenant. And yet you hold that non-Hebrew Gentiles are being saved or have been saved in the past and are being saved today and you are claiming God has done this without a covenant.

The Biblical record is clear God saves and redeems Israel through covenant and you claim non-Hebrews are being saved without a covenant - something that has no Biblical evidence. The three covenants God made, first with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed: then with the children of Israel through Moses in the desert at the time of the earthly Tabernacle, and the New Covenant Jeremiah prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 doesn't include Gentiles but you say Gentiles are being saved and God is doing it without a covenant. This completely violates the precedence set by God who has redeemed Israel using three ground-breaking covenants and with Scripture that records this redemption, but you want to add non-Hebrews into the three Hebrew covenants when there is no Scripture that makes such a claim.

I can produce Scripture that records three covenants between God and Abram the Hebrew that extends to his seed for their redemption, and you can't produce one Scripture that similarly makes the same claim of redeeming non-Hebrew Gentiles and yet you claim Gentiles have salvation without providing Biblical evidence. If there is no Old Testament Scripture for the salvation of Gentiles, then salvation cannot claim non-Hebrew Gentiles without Scriptural evidence. That's the bottom line. But it doesn't matter to you. You will still claim Gentile salvation without producing Scripture that records their redemption like the redemption God made with Abraham and his seed which is what the thirty-nine "books" of the Old Testament contain in its writings. Gentiles were never included in the Mosaic Covenant and the salvation record contained in its pages but that doesn't matter to you. You'll add to the Bible Gentiles in the redemption of God without Biblical evidence.

As my pastor once said, "If it's not chapter and verse then it is chatter or worse."

You add to the Bible things not there and I do not. I make claim of God redeeming Israel through covenant and Scripture, but you can't do the same with Gentiles but add Gentiles to God's redemption, nevertheless.

That's the difference between you and me. I can prove a God-Israel salvation, and you can't prove a God-Gentile salvation. But you'll add one anyways. You do what cults and false churches have done in the past. You make claims God does this and that but can't produce Biblical proof. For the record I say again:

There is no Scripture in the Old Testament of a salvation/redemption covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. The Mosaic Covenant (Law of Moses) contains a mechanism for the salvation from sin and death through the Ceremonial Law of the Hebrew people and this Law was given to Israel through Moses. To complete the process began centuries ago with a covenant between God and a Hebrew man named Abraham, God has promised a New Covenant established in the blood of Jesus Christ, who, as lamb of God was sent into the world to die a substitutionary death to pay the penalty for sin which is death and this comes under the Mosaic Laws given by God to the children of Israel. Jesus did this. It is redemption history. It is Biblical record.

The fact that Jesus died in accordance with the Law of Moses doesn't matter to you. You'll still claim Gentile salvation without Biblical proof. You add to the Bible teaching and statement the Bible does not claim. That's called adding to the Bible and God makes clear the person that adds to God's word is a liar.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

People are liars when they make claims about God and the Bible and cannot produce Scripture to prove those claims.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I said you add to the Bible and I proved it.
You claim non-Hebrews are part of the Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New) for their salvation and redemption but there is no Scripture in the Old Testament of a God-non-Hebrew salvation covenant nor are non-Hebrew Gentiles included in any of the three Hebrew covenants.

The Bible does teach that non-Hebrews (Gentiles) are saved and redeemed through the same covenants that God made with Israel — especially the Abrahamic and New Covenants — and it teaches this explicitly in both Old and New Testaments.
Here is the clear biblical evidence:

1. Abrahamic Covenant Was Always Meant to Include Gentiles​

God never limited the Abrahamic Covenant to ethnic Israel.

Verse	Exact Words (ESV or close)	Meaning
Genesis 12:3	“in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”	Universal promise from day one.
Genesis 17:4–5	“you shall be the father of a multitude of nations… I have made you the father of many nations.”	Abraham is made the father of many Gentile nations, not just Israel.
Genesis 18:18	“Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him.”	Repeated for emphasis.
Genesis 22:18	“in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.”	Quoted in the NT as fulfilled in Christ (Gal 3:8).

Paul directly says the gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham in this promise, and Gentiles are blessed with Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:7–9, 14, 29).

​

2. The Mosaic Covenant Was Temporary and Pointed to a Wider Inclusion​

The Mosaic Covenant was never the way of final salvation — even for Jews (Gal 3:19–25; Heb 8:13). It was added until the Seed (Christ) came, in whom Gentiles are included.

​

3. The New Covenant Explicitly Includes Gentiles (Old Testament Proof!)​

The Old Testament prophets themselves say the New Covenant will bring Gentiles in.

Verse	Exact Words	Meaning
Isaiah 42:6; 49:6	“I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”	The Servant (Jesus) brings salvation to Gentiles.
Isaiah 56:6–8	“Foreigners who join themselves to the LORD… I will bring to my holy mountain… for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”	Gentiles fully included in the covenant temple.
Jeremiah 31:31–34 (the New Covenant passage)	Quoted in Hebrews 8 and applied to the church — which is mostly Gentile.
Ezekiel 47:22–23	In the restored land, foreigners living among Israel are to be allotted an inheritance “like native-born children of Israel.”	Gentiles become full heirs.

4. New Testament Confirmation (Paul, Peter, Jesus)​

Ephesians 2:11–19 — Gentiles, formerly “alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants,” are now “brought near… fellow citizens… members of the household of God.”

Ephesians 3:6 — “The Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.”

Romans 4:16–17 — The promise to Abraham is “by faith… that he might be the father of us all” (Jew and Gentile).

Galatians 3:28–29 — “There is neither Jew nor Greek… for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”

Bottom Line​

Yes, there are Old Testament scriptures that promise salvation and covenant inclusion for Gentiles — starting in Genesis 12 and running through the prophets. The Abrahamic and New Covenants were always designed to include believing Gentiles as full heirs. The Mosaic Covenant was the temporary, Israel-specific administration that ended at the cross.
So the claim that “there is no Scripture in the Old Testament of a God-non-Hebrew salvation covenant” is simply false — the Old Testament itself repeatedly declares the opposite.

You can't produce Scriptural evidence of a covenant between God and non-Hebrews for their salvation as the covenant of salvation God made with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. The Abrahamic Covenant is found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17, and there are no non-Hebrews named, mentioned or included in this covenant.
The Mosaic Covenant God made with Abraham's seed and descendants, a people called the children of Israel in the desert at the time of the earthly Tabernacle is recorded throughout Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy and there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned or included in this covenant; and the New Covenant between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah is recorded in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in this covenant. And yet you hold that non-Hebrew Gentiles are being saved or have been saved in the past and are being saved today and you are claiming God has done this without a covenant.

The Biblical record is clear God saves and redeems Israel through covenant and you claim non-Hebrews are being saved without a covenant - something that has no Biblical evidence. The three covenants God made, first with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed: then with the children of Israel through Moses in the desert at the time of the earthly Tabernacle, and the New Covenant Jeremiah prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 doesn't include Gentiles but you say Gentiles are being saved and God is doing it without a covenant. This completely violates the precedence set by God who has redeemed Israel using three ground-breaking covenants and with Scripture that records this redemption, but you want to add non-Hebrews into the three Hebrew covenants when there is no Scripture that makes such a claim.

I can produce Scripture that records three covenants between God and Abram the Hebrew that extends to his seed for their redemption, and you can't produce one Scripture that similarly makes the same claim of redeeming non-Hebrew Gentiles and yet you claim Gentiles have salvation without providing Biblical evidence. If there is no Old Testament Scripture for the salvation of Gentiles, then salvation cannot claim non-Hebrew Gentiles without Scriptural evidence. That's the bottom line. But it doesn't matter to you. You will still claim Gentile salvation without producing Scripture that records their redemption like the redemption God made with Abraham and his seed which is what the thirty-nine "books" of the Old Testament contain in its writings. Gentiles were never included in the Mosaic Covenant and the salvation record contained in its pages but that doesn't matter to you. You'll add to the Bible Gentiles in the redemption of God without Biblical evidence.

As my pastor once said, "If it's not chapter and verse then it is chatter or worse."

You add to the Bible things not there and I do not. I make claim of God redeeming Israel through covenant and Scripture, but you can't do the same with Gentiles but add Gentiles to God's redemption, nevertheless.

That's the difference between you and me. I can prove a God-Israel salvation, and you can't prove a God-Gentile salvation. But you'll add one anyways. You do what cults and false churches have done in the past. You make claims God does this and that but can't produce Biblical proof. For the record I say again:

There is no Scripture in the Old Testament of a salvation/redemption covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. The Mosaic Covenant (Law of Moses) contains a mechanism for the salvation from sin and death through the Ceremonial Law of the Hebrew people and this Law was given to Israel through Moses. To complete the process began centuries ago with a covenant between God and a Hebrew man named Abraham, God has promised a New Covenant established in the blood of Jesus Christ, who, as lamb of God was sent into the world to die a substitutionary death to pay the penalty for sin which is death and this comes under the Mosaic Laws given by God to the children of Israel. Jesus did this. It is redemption history. It is Biblical record.

The fact that Jesus died in accordance with the Law of Moses doesn't matter to you. You'll still claim Gentile salvation without Biblical proof. You add to the Bible teaching and statement the Bible does not claim. That's called adding to the Bible and God makes clear the person that adds to God's word is a liar.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

People are liars when they make claims about God and the Bible and cannot produce Scripture to prove those claims.

 

[brightfame52]

For the Elect of God, the Faith/Faithfulness of Christ perfectly fulfilled the Law on their behalf Rom 5:19, He achieved for them a Justifying Righteousness before Gods Law and Justice. He accomplished this by His perfect Faithfulness, Obedience which included suffering all the just penalty due to their sins. See Christ was Faithful to Him that appointed Him Heb 3:1-2

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

 

[Peterlag]

The Abrahamic Covenant is found described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. Faith is not mentioned nor called out as necessary to covenant.

The same with the Mosaic Covenant found throughout Exodus to Deuteronomy. Faith is not part of the narrative where covenant is described or made in these "books."
The New Covenant is found in and described in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and neither is faith mentioned or named as necessary for covenant, or atonement/salvation.

Therefore, according to Scripture faith is not named or mentioned as necessary for covenant or salvation/redemption, etc.

Now, I agree Abraham exhibited faith but where the covenant terms are mentioned faith is not included or mentioned in the terms of covenant.

I am not Jewish and so I don't follow the Jewish Bible. The Christian Bible starts in Romans.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

Let's see if I tag him here if he will come explain.

@Red Baker ... calling @Red Baker

This thread was started when I got very sick back in Feb. and was sick for a few months afterward, just not as bad as I was back then. I'm very thankful that I'm better today.

So, yes I'll come tomorrow and make a post to make it as clear as I can concerning the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Bible does teach that non-Hebrews (Gentiles) are saved and redeemed through the same covenants that God made with Israel — especially the Abrahamic and New Covenants — and it teaches this explicitly in both Old and New Testaments.
Here is the clear biblical evidence:

1. Abrahamic Covenant Was Always Meant to Include Gentiles​

God never limited the Abrahamic Covenant to ethnic Israel.

Verse	Exact Words (ESV or close)	Meaning
Genesis 12:3	“in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”	Universal promise from day one.
Genesis 17:4–5	“you shall be the father of a multitude of nations… I have made you the father of many nations.”	Abraham is made the father of many Gentile nations, not just Israel.
Genesis 18:18	“Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him.”	Repeated for emphasis.
Genesis 22:18	“in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.”	Quoted in the NT as fulfilled in Christ (Gal 3:8).

Paul directly says the gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham in this promise, and Gentiles are blessed with Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:7–9, 14, 29).

​

2. The Mosaic Covenant Was Temporary and Pointed to a Wider Inclusion​

The Mosaic Covenant was never the way of final salvation — even for Jews (Gal 3:19–25; Heb 8:13). It was added until the Seed (Christ) came, in whom Gentiles are included.

​

3. The New Covenant Explicitly Includes Gentiles (Old Testament Proof!)​

The Old Testament prophets themselves say the New Covenant will bring Gentiles in.

Verse	Exact Words	Meaning
Isaiah 42:6; 49:6	“I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”	The Servant (Jesus) brings salvation to Gentiles.
Isaiah 56:6–8	“Foreigners who join themselves to the LORD… I will bring to my holy mountain… for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”	Gentiles fully included in the covenant temple.
Jeremiah 31:31–34 (the New Covenant passage)	Quoted in Hebrews 8 and applied to the church — which is mostly Gentile.
Ezekiel 47:22–23	In the restored land, foreigners living among Israel are to be allotted an inheritance “like native-born children of Israel.”	Gentiles become full heirs.

4. New Testament Confirmation (Paul, Peter, Jesus)​

Ephesians 2:11–19 — Gentiles, formerly “alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants,” are now “brought near… fellow citizens… members of the household of God.”

Ephesians 3:6 — “The Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.”

Romans 4:16–17 — The promise to Abraham is “by faith… that he might be the father of us all” (Jew and Gentile).

Galatians 3:28–29 — “There is neither Jew nor Greek… for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”

Bottom Line​

Yes, there are Old Testament scriptures that promise salvation and covenant inclusion for Gentiles — starting in Genesis 12 and running through the prophets. The Abrahamic and New Covenants were always designed to include believing Gentiles as full heirs. The Mosaic Covenant was the temporary, Israel-specific administration that ended at the cross.
So the claim that “there is no Scripture in the Old Testament of a God-non-Hebrew salvation covenant” is simply false — the Old Testament itself repeatedly declares the opposite.

Abram the Hebrew was told by God to be blessed. The "families of the earth" that were to be blessed are his descendants since the blessing of covenant is made with Abram, his seed would also be blessed by being his seed.

The Abraham Covenant is made by God, and it was to include his seed. Abraham was the father of many nations especially when we take into account that Abraham had another son, Ishmael, and a grandson, Esau, who were blessed with faithful Abraham even though the promises did not pass to them. The blessings of having Abraham as father passed to Ishmael but not the promises. The blessings of having Abraham as Grandfather passed to Esau but not the promises. It makes sense that it is the covenant through which Abraham was blessed and also possessed the promises to have his cup runneth over to his descendants even though the promises didn't.

It is inconsistent for Abraham to be blessed by having God make promises to you but his seed does not reap any blessings at all but they go to people who are not circumcised and it also contradicts God's character to bless people who will never know Christ. Does God bless sin and sinful lives? The families of the earth that are blessed because of Abraham's covenant with God are passed to Abraham's seed, and the first test of whether this is true is Ishmael. He had twelve sons. And Ishmael's descendants were blessed of God because God promised Abraham's seed would be blessed. It is inconsistent that a people that do not circumcise themselves or are related to Abraham receive his blessings even if the covenant doesn't pass to them. Both blessing and covenant pass to Abraham's descendants. One possesses both (Isaac) and the other doesn't (Ishmael.)
Don't confuse them to each other. Was Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot blessed with faithful Abraham? Was Jack the Ripper blessed because of Abraham? How so? Did God choose them to eternal life? What about the drug dealer who sold drugs to your child who overdosed and died? Are they blessed with faithful Abraham? I suppose the man of sin and antichrist is blessed of God through faithful Abraham. These are part of the families of the earth you say are blessed. How about Pharaoh? Is he also blessed because of the covenant God made with Abraham? Pharaoh's firstborn son was killed by God. Is this a blessing?

No, no. The families of the earth that are blessed with faithful Abraham are his seed, his descendants, like Ishmael and Esau. They are related to Abraham and because of this anyone who is related to Abraham - his extended family through birth - are blessed of God. But not all are inheritors of the Abraham promises. Like the promises the blessings of Abraham by virtue of his covenant with God are the families of the earth that are blessed with faithful Abraham. It's biological. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. They come from Ham and Japheth. But with your interpretation people like the man of sin is blessed by faithful Abraham. Next, you're going to tell me the man of sin is friends with God. But here's something for you... the only two people in Scripture God calls "Friend" is Abraham and Judas.
Are there any friends of God in hell? If so, God must not be a true friend. Real friends don't let friends end up in hell.

 

[Jim]

Abram the Hebrew was told by God to be blessed. The "families of the earth" that were to be blessed are his descendants since the blessing of covenant is made with Abram, his seed would also be blessed by being his seed.

The Abraham Covenant is made by God, and it was to include his seed. Abraham was the father of many nations especially when we take into account that Abraham had another son, Ishmael, and a grandson, Esau, who were blessed with faithful Abraham even though the promises did not pass to them. The blessings of having Abraham as father passed to Ishmael but not the promises. The blessings of having Abraham as Grandfather passed to Esau but not the promises. It makes sense that it is the covenant through which Abraham was blessed and also possessed the promises to have his cup runneth over to his descendants even though the promises didn't.

It is inconsistent for Abraham to be blessed by having God make promises to you but his seed does not reap any blessings at all but they go to people who are not circumcised and it also contradicts God's character to bless people who will never know Christ. Does God bless sin and sinful lives? The families of the earth that are blessed because of Abraham's covenant with God are passed to Abraham's seed, and the first test of whether this is true is Ishmael. He had twelve sons. And Ishmael's descendants were blessed of God because God promised Abraham's seed would be blessed. It is inconsistent that a people that do not circumcise themselves or are related to Abraham receive his blessings even if the covenant doesn't pass to them. Both blessing and covenant pass to Abraham's descendants. One possesses both (Isaac) and the other doesn't (Ishmael.)
Don't confuse them to each other. Was Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot blessed with faithful Abraham? Was Jack the Ripper blessed because of Abraham? How so? Did God choose them to eternal life? What about the drug dealer who sold drugs to your child who overdosed and died? Are they blessed with faithful Abraham? I suppose the man of sin and antichrist is blessed of God through faithful Abraham. These are part of the families of the earth you say are blessed. How about Pharaoh? Is he also blessed because of the covenant God made with Abraham? Pharaoh's firstborn son was killed by God. Is this a blessing?

No, no. The families of the earth that are blessed with faithful Abraham are his seed, his descendants, like Ishmael and Esau. They are related to Abraham and because of this anyone who is related to Abraham - his extended family through birth - are blessed of God. But not all are inheritors of the Abraham promises. Like the promises the blessings of Abraham by virtue of his covenant with God are the families of the earth that are blessed with faithful Abraham. It's biological. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. They come from Ham and Japheth. But with your interpretation people like the man of sin is blessed by faithful Abraham. Next, you're going to tell me the man of sin is friends with God. But here's something for you... the only two people in Scripture God calls "Friend" is Abraham and Judas.
Are there any friends of God in hell? If so, God must not be a true friend. Real friends don't let friends end up in hell.

Such thinking, I believe, is some of the reason for the troubles that the Jews have faced through all history since Jesus walked the earth. Paul was hounded by some with such thinking throughout his entire ministry. I believe such men echoing much of what you espouse here were what he called a thorn in the flesh (2 Cor 12:7).

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

That's your take on my many posts on this phrase~"The faith of Jesus Christ." I'm convinced I have made it very clear as to what it means~ it is not understood by many, maybe most, since men have heard so many times over that it is "our" faith which justified us legally before God's law, which to any unbiased person, who can think for themselves and outside of the box of the many false religions in Mystery Babylon they should be able to reason within the parameter's of God's testimony to us......the holy scriptures that the obedience/faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ is the "only" material cause of God's mercy to us in making us the righteousness of God, which gives us the right to eternal life.

The efficient cause of man's redemption is God's good pleasure and there can be no other cause. The final cause of man's salvation from sin and condemnation is to the praise and glory of God's grace....See Ephesians chapter one where Paul clearly reveals these truths to us.

That being said, the only way these truths can be maintained in their purity is to proclaim Jesus' faith and obedience as the Son of Man for the remission of our sins and the manner in which man receives the righteousness of God and the manner in which man in the flesh can live and please God. God declares this truth powerfully when he said:
Jesus' very birth~he had to be virgin born~he had to be God's Son, not Adam's...that within itself should speak volumes to you to prove to you that ALL FLESH is sinful as it comes from Adam's posterity....the life and death of Jesus Christ declares a gospel where Jesus' obedience/faith and righteousness is the only works that God accepts for the forgiveness of our sins, all others are wicked and sinful and are at enmity against God. All other gospels are another gospel, which in truth is not gospel (good news) but a system that leaves man without hope by causing him to trust in himself other than 100% in Jesus Christ.

I remember writing these words to @Jim a few years ago, just do not remember exactly when and why. Nevertheless, a great subject to discuss, and to know the truth concerning, miss it here, and one has missed the truth of the true grace of God.

1st Peter 5:12​

“By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.”

So, let us get started with this subject of free justification through Christ alone, without the works of man having one thing to do with justification in a legal sense. I am to inquire what it is to be justified by faith.

1) The sinner's faith is not the impulsive or moving cause of free Justification. Salvation from sin and condemnation is a act of God free grace, to sinners who have no power to save themselves, from being captives of the devil, and serving him with wicked deeds.

Ephesians 1:7​

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;”

But this benefit would not be of grace, but of works, was our faith the impulsive cause of it: because faith is a work or act of ours, as we learn from the words of Christ:

John 6:29​

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

Salvation is not of works, in any branch of it;

Ephesians 2:8​

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

From whence it is evident that Justification, which is a considerable part of salvation, cannot be by works. The grace of God eminently appears in contriving the way of our Justification by Christ’s righteousness, and in sending him into the world to work out a righteousness for us, in which we stand complete in his sight: Hence we are said,:

Titus 3:7​

“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

No other cause can be assigned why sinners are justified in the sight of God, than his free favor and sovereign pleasure.

So much more to come....RB

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Abrahamic Covenant is found described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. Faith is not mentioned nor called out as necessary to covenant.

The same with the Mosaic Covenant found throughout Exodus to Deuteronomy. Faith is not part of the narrative where covenant is described or made in these "books."
The New Covenant is found in and described in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and neither is faith mentioned or named as necessary for covenant, or atonement/salvation.

Therefore, according to Scripture faith is not named or mentioned as necessary for covenant or salvation/redemption, etc.

Now, I agree Abraham exhibited faith but where the covenant terms are mentioned faith is not included or mentioned in the terms of covenant.

Question?

Is faith supposed to be private?

If not... based on what you have said... why then would Heb 11:6 state

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ?


The Faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah
…5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. 7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.…

 

[brightfame52]

Abram the Hebrew was told by God to be blessed. The "families of the earth" that were to be blessed are his descendants since the blessing of covenant is made with Abram, his seed would also be blessed by being his seed.

His seed through Christ his spiritual seed Gal 3:29

- And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Abraham couldn't produce a spiritual believing seed justified by faith. Gal 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's God's work

 

[jeremiah1five]

I am not Jewish and so I don't follow the Jewish Bible. The Christian Bible starts in Romans.

There's your ignorance in full view.

There is no "Jewish" or "Christian" Bible.

There is only ONE Bible.

The Hebrew Bible. It begins with Genesis and ends with Revelation.

Each "book" is authored by a Hebrew and is written to and for Hebrews. Biblical Christianity is revealed in its pages.
This means that Christianity existed with the first prophecy in Genesis 3:15 culminating with a call from Messiah that He will "Come, quickly."
Moses was a Christian, David was a Christian, whoever hoped in the [Greek] Christ would come looked forward to His appearance as promised by Jehovah God, the Great I AM, who created all things that exist in the universe, from good to evil - All things were Authored by One and that One is God.
I suggest you take your false, Constantinian Gentile theology and re-form it into Biblical Christianity as taught in this One Hebrew Bible.
There is only ONE kind of Christianity that exists. Biblical Christianity.
If one's Christianity is not Biblical, then it is NOT Christianity.
Bottom line.

 

[civic]

Did Jesus have Faith ?

My top 10 reasons why Jesus had no need for faith !

1-Jesus used the word pistis or its derivatives a total of 41 times. Look it up in your concordance if you own one.
2- Every time Jesus used the word He was talking about someone else’s faith and not “ His Faith “
3- Jesus never used the faith in the first person referring to His “ Faith “.
4- No book in the entire NT ever refers to “ Jesus Faith “
5- Jesus is always the object of Faith never the recipient of faith
6- All the Apostles refers to their own faith in Christ .
7- Saving Faith is in Christ alone
8- God has no need for Faith
9- The Savior has no need for faith since He is not a sinner
10- Faith is needed for sinners alone and not the Holy Son of God who was / is Impeccable

Faith is the belief in things unseen. Remember the words of the Author of Hebrews: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (11:1).

Since Jesus is God He has perfect knowledge of all things as He claimed and the disciples affirmed on numerous occasions when they said we know that you are the Son of God for you know all things. Jesus knew what was in mans heart. There is no reason for Jesus to have faith since He knows all things and all things were made by Him and through Him and in Him all things exist. He knows the beginning from the end as the Creator. He shares all the same Divine attributes as the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is no faith in heaven there is only sight. The 2 natures in Christ solve the question of faith and Jesus as a man has all the attributes of God. So Jesus had no need for faith since He sees the things unseen by man. He always said and did what He heard and saw the Father doing 24/7 read about it in John 5.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

This topic is worthy of its own thread so I started one here.

Thread 'Did Jesus have or need Faith ?'

Today at 6:34 AM

Did Jesus have Faith ?

My top 10 reasons why Jesus had no need for faith !

1-Jesus used the word pistis or its derivatives a total of 41 times. Look it up in your concordance if you own one.
2- Every time Jesus used the word He was talking about someone else’s faith and not “ His Faith “
3- Jesus never used the faith in the first person referring to His “ Faith “.
4- No book in the entire NT ever refers to “ Jesus Faith “
5- Jesus is always the object of Faith never the recipient of faith
6- All the Apostles refers to their own faith in Christ .
7- Saving Faith is in Christ alone...

• civic
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Christology

• 

 

[civic]

BTW its a terrible translation the faith " of " Christ.

The correct translation is the faith " IN " Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Did Jesus have Faith ?

My top 10 reasons why Jesus had no need for faith !

Did Jesus pray? When He prayed did He pray in Faith?

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

Jesus' very birth~he had to be virgin born~he had to be God's Son, not Adam's...that within itself should speak volumes to you to prove to you that ALL FLESH is sinful as it comes from Adam's posterity....the life and death of Jesus Christ declares a gospel where Jesus' obedience/faith and righteousness is the only works that God accepts for the forgiveness of our sins, all others are wicked and sinful and are at enmity against God. All other gospels are another gospel, which in truth is not gospel (good news) but a system that leaves man without hope by causing him to trust in himself other than 100% in Jesus Christ.

That quote I remember, and I would say the very same words today, so let me continue with post #2. May the Lord bless His truth to the hearts of his people, for the building up of their faith.

2) Neither is faith the matter of our legal justification; which appears by these following points.

A. Because that righteousness, by which we are legally justified before God, is not our own.
It is very evident that Paul excluded all of his former wormer as dung that he might be found in Christ not having his own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness

Philippians 3:8​

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

It is manifest, that the Apostle excluded every thing from the business of his legal Justification which might be accounted his own; and, `It is manifest, that the Apostle excluded every thing from the business of his Justification which might be accounted his own; and, consequently, faith it self, which though it is a fruit of special grace, may properly be reckoned our own, as we are the subjects of it. All dependence on faith for Justification is laid aside by the saints, who are sensible that many deficiencies attend it, and we all know that nothing which is imperfect can recommend them to God, as far as our legal justification.

B) A perfect righteousness is required, in order to our Justification in God’s sight. His law insists upon a complete/perfect obedience to all its precepts, and condemns where it is wanting; for the language of it is:

Galatians 3:10​

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”

Nor will God, in any instance, act contrary to his own law, which cannot be made void; for it is the eternal standard and rule of righteousness, according to which he will always proceed in judgment. Faith is not a righteousness free from imperfection, and therefore it is not such as is demanded by the Law; wherefore we cannot be justified by it.

C) Faith receives that righteousness by which we are justified, and therefore cannot be that righteousness itself. That which is laid hold on, and embraced by faith, must needs be something different from it, as the act and the object are distinct. Christ’s righteousness is that to which the faith of a believer looks, and on which it wholly depends for Justification before God: Therefore our faith is not the matter of his justifying righteousness.

D) Justification is not by works; for if so, boasting will not be excluded, as it must eternally be in the whole of our salvation: For “it is not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph. 2: 9.);” as was observed before. Faith is an act and work of ours, and therefore cannot be the matter of our Justification.

E) We are justified by the obedience and sufferings of Christ, and consequently not by faith. The Apostle expressly asserts that we are justified by his blood:

Romans 5:9​

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Therefore not by "our" faith and obedience.

We are indebted to the works of such men as Samuel Richardson 1650; John Gill 1700's and his friend John Brine all ( and many more) taught blessed truth. The Particular Baptist 1500's to 1800's works are full of this blessed truth. The great Reformers actually muddy the waters concerning this truth, sad to say.

Much more to come....RB

 

[jeremiah1five]

Such thinking, I believe, is some of the reason for the troubles that the Jews have faced through all history since Jesus walked the earth. Paul was hounded by some with such thinking throughout his entire ministry. I believe such men echoing much of what you espouse here were what he called a thorn in the flesh (2 Cor 12:7).

Re-imagining and re-interpreting the Hebrew Scripture to make what was originally Hebrew into Gentile. I understand it. I used to be blinded and deceived by the same false Gentile theology myself until the questions I had begun to lead me to the answers that if not already biased by Gentile thought would have kept me holding to false Gentile theology today. But when I began to think things through - as Saul did - I began to see the truth and by it was set free from the bondage of permeating false Gentile theology that is out there being gobbled up by Gentiles with a pre-installed Gentile theology and bias that would have kept me looking at the Hebrew Scripture with a Gentile mindset. But God set me free.

And the thorn in Saul's flesh was his own flesh, not his mind. The mind is part of the soul, not the flesh. It might be a brain that is flesh, but the thoughts that come from it cannot be seen, they are immaterial like spirit, sometimes evil spirit. Sometimes the attitudes that emanate from the brain are evil thoughts, demonic attitudes, and attitude is very important in a believer's life. Our thoughts set the course of our lives. We can't have an evil spirit/attitude when we worship God and so when Christ dealt with supposed people possessed by evil spirits/thoughts/attitude, the first thing Jesus did was bring those thoughts/attitudes/evil thoughts into submission, and then He could minister to a person. But the false Gentile theology out there is that "demons" are fallen angels who have been changed into demons through God's power or their own power, but this would be inconsistent with true biblical teaching that says "demons" are fallen angels.

(Saul's) thinking cannot be equated with his flesh. That's confusion at the highest degree. May the Lord deliver you from your bondage, to see things more clearly, as Saul did.
Remember, a thorn in a person's flesh has to do with flesh.
Remember this.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

My top 10 reasons why Jesus had no need for faith !

Civic, I'll give you one main reason why it was imperative for our Lord to have faith.

Hebrews 7:22​

“By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.”

Jesus Christ was not a private person but was sent into the world to be "a surety" of the new convent so that he would secured eternal life for God's elect by him living a life of faith and obedience, (as a man) that God's law would grant eternal life to all for whom Christ stood as their representative before God's law.

I can enlarge on this if need be, no problem. Your understanding shows me that your overall understanding has some serious holes in it. No pun intended, but truth is truth.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Question?

Is faith supposed to be private?

If not... based on what you have said... why then would Heb 11:6 state

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ?


The Faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah
…5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. 7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.…

God desires His people to trust Him. He is pleased when they do. He is not pleased when they don't. Do you have any stories when you failed God and didn't trust Him? Yes, of course you do. Did you lose your salvation when you didn't trust God? Did you end up in hell? What's the big deal? Israel was in covenant as a people by being the seed and descendants of Abraham and Sarah. This covenant at the appropriate and appointed time lead to another covenant that included Jacob's descendants, who are descendant of Isaac, who are the descendants of Abraham., a covenant that included officially God giving His Law(s) to the children of Israel so that they may live under God's reign and serve him. Gentiles were never given God's Law. Gentiles were never under the Law. Neither are they included in the New Covenant which is the culmination of the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants.

Noah was told by God He was to flood the earth and to build an Ark to survive it. Eight people survived the flood because Noah believed God who said "Build an Ark! I am going to flood the earth and kill everyone!"

Enoch was a man who had children and if you have kids yourself, and you are conscientious about things in life, you were changed when your children were born like Enoch. He served God 300 years AFTER he had kids. Who else shall I write about? Even Jesus had trust/faith in God His Father. He had to. He needed to know what it's like for us as men and women who are commanded by God to believe and trust God. It was Jesus' faith as a man under the Law who had the faith/trust necessary through which those in covenant would be saved. Jesus was able to experience what we go through when God expects and commands our trust/faith in Him. Of course, Jesus had faith. He experienced everything we go through in this life - even to have faith in God like we do.

 

[civic]

@civic

Civic, I'll give you one main reason why it was imperative for our Lord to have faith.

Hebrews 7:22​

“By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.”

Jesus Christ was not a private person but was sent into the world to be "a surety" of the new convent so that he would secured eternal life for God's elect by him living a life of faith and obedience, (as a man) that God's law would grant eternal life to all for whom Christ stood as their representative before God's law.

I can enlarge on this if need be, no problem. Your understanding shows me that your overall understanding has some serious holes in it. No pun intended, but truth is truth.

That was through obedience not faith. Nice try but you are equivocating again