The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man

[dwight92070]

The Greek which is older than any translation says it can be either "of" or "in". I think it's "in".
Therefore the age of the translation matters little.
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." NASB

It would unBiblical to say that we live by Christ's faith. He doesn't exercise faith for us. We must exercise faith ourselves.

Jesus did not say: Repent and I'll believe in the gospel for you.

He said: "(You) repent and (you) believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15

 

[mikesw]

When in doubt, we could also consider it like this... from the moment we wake each day 'till the moment we fall asleep each night, do we really honor God in every word, thought, & deed? Although we're saved, we still live in our sinful flesh until the day of our redemption. That's where we fall miserably short. Jesus Christ was perfect b/c only God can be perfect

When someone does exegesis of passages, they are (almost) obligated to read from the Greek text. In reading that, they determine whether the translation to English is best as "faith of Jesus" or "faith in Jesus." One example that horribly fails is to use "faith in Jesus" within Gal 2:16. May analysis of Gal 2:11-18 shows the logic of Paul's argument. The argument would get muddled if this read as "faith of Christ. Even in the KJV, the point about "even we believed in Christ" provides the better baseline for translating the other phrases in that verse.
Part of the wisdom here is not to trust in mortal man in whom there is no salvation. This means to be careful of translations too.

 

[Victoria]

When someone does exegesis of passages, they are (almost) obligated to read from the Greek text. In reading that, they determine whether the translation to English is best as "faith of Jesus" or "faith in Jesus." One example that horribly fails is to use "faith in Jesus" within Gal 2:16. May analysis of Gal 2:11-18 shows the logic of Paul's argument. The argument would get muddled if this read as "faith of Christ. Even in the KJV, the point about "even we believed in Christ" provides the better baseline for translating the other phrases in that verse.
Part of the wisdom here is not to trust in mortal man in whom there is no salvation. This means to be careful of translations too.

I believe God when He said He promised to preserve His Word for all generations. It's man who questions it, so yes, we shouldn't put any trust in mortal man. To determine which translation is the true Word of God requires discernment, a careful study of comparing those manuscripts side by side to see where the corruptions lie. God will try our works by fire "aka" meaning His Word at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What remains, reward... what's destroyed, loss of reward.

 

[Peterlag]

The Greek which is older than any translation says it can be either "of" or "in". I think it's "in".
Therefore the age of the translation matters little.
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." NASB

It would unBiblical to say that we live by Christ's faith. He doesn't exercise faith for us. We must exercise faith ourselves.

Jesus did not say: Repent and I'll believe in the gospel for you.

He said: "(You) repent and (you) believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15

I believe it's of and not in.

Of makes it about Christ. In makes it about you. And the oldest translations are a whole bunch more reliable than the new ones.

 

[Jim]

Jesus was a man, and who, as a man was under the Law expected to be obedient to the Law.

You fail to respect this about Jesus and lean more heavily on His Divinity to the exclusion of His humanity.

I would presume that you've never experienced the Person of the Holy Spirit in your walk and appear to me to be man-centered in all your experiences with the Almighty. What is faith but trust. Here, read this:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1.

The Greek word is "ὑπόστασις" hypostasis. Faith is the "hypostasis" of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The word is also found here:

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3.

Defined as: [#5287] from a compound of [#5259] (hupo) and [#2476] (histemi); a setting under (support), i.e. (figurative) concrete essence, or abstract assurance (object or subject.)

Was it His humanity that purged our sins or was it His Deity that purged our sins?

Now, why would the translators of the KJV translate the "hypostasis" as [a] "person"? Faith is a Person?
Yes, faith is a Person and that Person is Christ/Messiah/Anointing. Faith-ful (and True) is one of Jesus' Names.

Hypostasis is where we get "Hypostatic" as in Hypostatic Union, the very doctrinal term for Jesus being BOTH God and man. Was it His humanity upholding His Deity; or was it His Deity upholding His humanity? According to you it is His humanity upholding His Deity. But you would be wrong. It is His Deity that was upholding His humanity. Another proof that Jesus' temptation/testing was a proving of His humanity and not His Deity. He was a most unique Person, someone of whom there is no other like Him. Being hungered, walking up the staircase that led to the pinnacle of the Temple and whether to throw Himself down, or observing all the kingdoms of the world [to that date] address His humanity, who He is and the pride of His life. These were not testing His Deity. He knew who He was. At the age of twelve discussing with the priests the things of God He was aware that God was His Father ["My Father's business"], remember?

But I am getting ahead of myself. The thing is that as a man He was expected to function "in all ways" as a man and this included trusting God as God and as His Father. He was tested "in all ways" as a man who is tested being just a man. And as a man He was limited in His knowledge which is why He asked questions in order to ascertain more information in order to proceed as a man would, and this includes faith-ing God, or trusting God and being trusted as a Son. The point being that as a man He was tested as men are tested and this includes having faith in God. If "My God, My God" from the cross doesn't address Jesus as a man instead of, "My Father, My Father" [why hast thou forsaken me] then Jesus was not a man who was "tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin" doesn't speak to you that as a man He is able to succor experience things as a man then He cannot be our Mediator. For we need someone who can understand what a man goes through to be our High Priest to represent us to God, and God, to us. But let me ask you...Jesus was a Carpenter. Did His stepfather, Joseph, teach Him in woodwork or did He immediately have total knowledge of His craft?

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 2:16–18.

Maybe you see Jesus as 60-40, or 70-30? Seventy as Deity/Divine and thirty being man? Is that the formula? Or was He 100-100 [%] fully man and fully God? He was and is the seed of Abraham and as such can be claimed as a son of Abraham. So, what measure was His humanity against His Deity? I suffer, He suffered. I get hungry, He got hungry.

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. Mark 14:34.

In His prayers to God it was necessary for Him to

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1 Corinthians 2:4–5.

There is a faith that is of the wisdom of men - [which is not faith at all] - and there is a faith that is the power of God. Which one is given of God? Everything about salvation is from God. Everything about salvation originates with God and not men. Like Lazarus, men are dead in trespasses and sin. Lazarus could not exercise any faith to be resurrected or made alive. He lay in the tomb four days, and it could have been five or six days, or a month, the point is that faith is from above, not below, and faith cannot be exercised by dead men walking. It, or should I say, HE is [the] gift of God.

Does this apply to Jesus?

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6.

But God Himself says, "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

So, Jesus as a man had to have faith in God as God and in His Father as His Father. And when Jesus prayed, He prayed the will of God, and by being in one accord with the Father was the key to answered prayer. Did He pray for twelve legions of angels? No, He didn't. His purpose was not to suffer the cross, but He welcomed it. Several times He said He was going to Jerusalem to die. His "face" was set towards it. So, there is a faith that is measly and deficient and that is the faith of mere mortals, mere men. And then there is a faith that is from God. That is the faith that moves 'mountains.'
Is there any passage in Scripture that says that men's faith is like a mustard seed that grows and in whose branches the birds of heaven lodge? Or is it Christ's faith that is likened to such a tree? My faith might seek this or that, but I have experienced His faith that accomplished what it set out to do. Many times, this has happened to me. And when this faith was given to me and through whom it came, I received what it sought without fail. This is the faith Jesus had, and I had the same faith - BUT it was given to me to experience, and it didn't come from me for I recognize not only His Voice and His Word, but His Presence that accompanied it. Faith is Christ. And Christ is faith. And it was His faith that God and Father honored which enabled Him to live and to save that which was lost. And that which was lost are all those whose names were written in by God in the book of life of the lamb.

So, yes, Jesus had faith. And it is His faith through which anyone is saved.

I repeat - Pure nonsense!!

 

[Jim]

Greek Word: τελέω
Transliteration: teleō

Strong's [#5055] from [#5056] (telos); to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt.)

Over 300 Prophecies and Promises in the Old Testament were made by God to Israel. Jesus fulfilled all of them.
And especially this:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17–18.

The Ceremonial Law was given by God to the children of Israel. This Law is identified as substitutionary in nature. This means that an animal is chosen and slain by the priest and offered to God for the yearly atonement of the sins of Israel. When John said, "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world [of Hebrews.]" And I say "Hebrews" because under the Law the animal that was slain was killed and whose blood was for the yearly [temporary] atonement for the sins of the children of Israel. It was not slain for the atonement of [non-Hebrew] Gentiles. Gentiles were never under the Law God gave to Israel. It is in this respect that Jesus was slain [by God] and whose blood was shed to atone the sins of Israel. The animal was not slain to atone the sins of Gentiles. God never instructed nor commanded this and there is nothing in the Law that claims this. The Law given by God in the sacrificial offering for Israel's sins and was instructed and commanded by God for this purpose. So, when Jesus said He came to fulfill, He meant that in like fashion the animal was slain to atone the sins of the children of Israel He, too, was slain to atone finally and eternally the sins of the children of Israel. This means Jesus' sacrifice is limited in scope to only the children of Israel because the animal that was slain yearly as a temporary measure is now fulfilled by Jesus in a permanent conclusion or end. His sacrifice of Himself was once and for all for [Israel.] And since death could not hold Him, He resurrected to life.

Are there new prophecies or promises given and still awaiting fulfillment? Yes, there are. His second coming is one of them. The actual giving of the Promised Land is another. But that purpose of His first coming was to offer Himself to God as a sacrifice in place of the animal that was offered yearly except His offering of Himself is forever. And the target people to whom it was effected to atone is Israel, anyone and everyone who is the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ONLY. Saul understood this. His mentioning of "Gentiles" in his letters cannot be identified as "non-Hebrews" for as rabbi and Pharisee He knew and knows that non-Hebrew Gentiles were not promised anything by God. So, if he is referring to Gentiles as non-Hebrews, and that they are recipients of God's promises of redemption (salvation), then Saul is teaching a change in the Law where no change exists. In this case, then Saul is teaching a change in the Law that Jesus said can never be changed. For any change in the Law would effectively destroy the Law. So, "Gentiles" in Saul's letters cannot be "non-Hebrew" Gentiles but mixed-race Hebrews who are called "Gentile" and not "Jew" the same that Jews called mixed-race Hebrews "Samaritan" and not "Jew" by Jews who are not mixed-race. Samaritans were the descendants of the ten northern kingdom tribes including Manassas and Ephraim (two Egyptian-Hebrew) sons of Joseph. This makes more sense when Saul's words here in his Ephesian letter is addressing mixed-race Hebrews who grew up Gentile in Gentile lands when conquered by both the Assyrian and Babylonian armies and exiled and assimilated into Greek culture (Hellenized) circa 722 BC and 586 BC, respectively.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11–13.

This coincides with Peter here:

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.

There is only ONE Church and Bride and they are Israel.

For every law there are two parts specified. There is the commandment and a punishment specified for failure to obey the commandment. The law is fulfilled either when (1) the commandment is obeyed or when (2) the punishment is carried out for disobeying the commandment. It is the second part of the law which Jesus fulfilled. He submitted to the punishment of the whole law. You have a choice; you can pay the punishment yourself or you can accept the punishment paid by Jesus. It is finished.

 

[Jim]

I came to finish the works of The FATHER . And glory hallelujah HE SURE DID .
To the trenches jim and all . The LORD be OUR SALVATION and another gospel gonna grave every one who buyes it .
Never let go of the TRUTH my friend . THAT ONE MUST BELIEVE , MUST BELEIVE JESUS THE CHRIST .
Let us never offer up false hope for if a man does the blood of the other Will be on HIM .
ITS JESUS or its all in vain . Budda and muhammed and any man cannot save themselves . ALL them religoins
are of the darkness . ONLY IN CHIRST JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE and ONLY HE can set one
free from the power of darkness and of satan . ITS that real and its that serious my friend .
That we preach ONLY JESUS to this generation . Soon the ecumenical harlot and her c hildren
will rage war against the saints . A peroid of another crusades will begin and if a man complies
not he no buy and he no sell , he be hunted to the ends of the earth as a hater of all humanity
and what they will all beleive is GOD . but no sir , no its not , ITS THE DARK ONE .

See my reply to @jeremiah1five, reply #66.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I write it this way...

When it comes to the faith of Jesus Christ, we must understand the relationship Jesus Christ has with God to have this faith. It's beyond just trusting God because of the acceptance of the new established covenant that demands obedience to God’s testimony. Faith is not a leap in the dark, but a leap through the dark into the light. It's the intelligent acceptance of the report of a reliable witness that would persuade one to accept something as the truth in the reliability of the testimony. The faith of Jesus Christ is the relationship existing between God and Christ in the bond of the covenant between them. To recognize and acknowledge the relationship God has entered into with Christ, we must first understand that God is the originator of the covenant relationship, and God is the one who brings into being things that did not previously exist. This is His oath, His covenant, and He can be relied on to keep His part of the contract because He guarantees it, and this is His truth.

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son who is expressing the acknowledgment of his Father’s promises and power. As I stated earlier, the faith of Jesus Christ is the relationship existing between God and Christ in the bond of the covenant between them. The faith Christ has is his faith because of his acknowledgment and acceptance of his Father’s new covenant. Thus, the “gospel of Christ” is born. This faith Jesus Christ has is solid because it's the trust Jesus Christ has with God, who brought him into this special relationship that created the bond of the new covenant between them. We can tap into this faith by our believing and walk and live within the power of the Scriptures because we are connected to the faith of Jesus Christ. It's not our believing that makes us righteous, but the faith of Jesus Christ, whereby we not only have our standing, but also have access to the high and holy privilege that comes with that spiritual standing.

Faith is not necessary if one is in covenant with God. Faith is not even required in the Abraham Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, or the New Covenant. Why hope for something you can see? The Abraham Covenant is the first of three major covenants God makes with the Hebrew people. Each one builds upon the last until the final act is performed by God's own Son, Jesus Christ. Under the Law the animals were slain to atone temporarily the sins of the children of Israel. There was no need for faith when God instructed and commanded in the Law the method of Israel's salvation. It was more about obedience. Circumcision was required as part of the Abraham Covenant God made with Abraham. Obedience was required as part of the Mosaic Covenant, and for the New Covenant faith was not required.

 

[jeremiah1five]

For every law there are two parts specified. There is the commandment and a punishment specified for failure to obey the commandment. The law is fulfilled either when (1) the commandment is obeyed or when (2) the punishment is carried out for disobeying the commandment. It is the second part of the law which Jesus fulfilled. He submitted to the punishment of the whole law. You have a choice; you can pay the punishment yourself or you can accept the punishment paid by Jesus. It is finished.

Jesus didn't have a choice.

The Father asked, "Who shall I send?"

The Son responded, "Here am I. Send me."

Very simple.

 

[jeremiah1five]

See my reply to @jeremiah1five, reply #66.

There is always a tendency to add to the Bible.

 

[Jim]

There is always a tendency to add to the Bible.

Yes, that is true. You do that quite often.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If I'm understanding this thread topic correctly, it's in regards to faith vs. works?

@Victoria....

It is the Fait OF Jesus. This whole idea came about 3 or 4 years ago on another forum and was basically
an idea of Red Bakers..... I originally moved the idea here for some new subject matter and no one seemed interested.

Red was not and looks like he still is not.... but as I recall over the other place we were talking about faityh in Jesus and I am pretty sure RB had said it is the Faith OF Jesus yada yada....

But nothing at all about works.

 

[brightfame52]

The Man Christ Jesus, the Mediator between God and Men did upon this earth what no other man could do, to include Adam the very first man, and that was to keep the Law of God perfectly. The Lord Jesus Christ every moment of His earthly pilgrimage did this Matt 22:37-39

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Remember this Deut 6:4-6

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Only Christ did and accomplished this !

It is said of Christ Isa 42:20

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

 

[Peterlag]

Faith is not necessary if one is in covenant with God. Faith is not even required in the Abraham Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, or the New Covenant. Why hope for something you can see? The Abraham Covenant is the first of three major covenants God makes with the Hebrew people. Each one builds upon the last until the final act is performed by God's own Son, Jesus Christ. Under the Law the animals were slain to atone temporarily the sins of the children of Israel. There was no need for faith when God instructed and commanded in the Law the method of Israel's salvation. It was more about obedience. Circumcision was required as part of the Abraham Covenant God made with Abraham. Obedience was required as part of the Mosaic Covenant, and for the New Covenant faith was not required.

Romans:
whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1 Corinthians:
That your faith should stand in the power of God.
Galatians:
The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith:
Hebrews:
without faith it is impossible to please him:
By faith they passed through the Red sea...
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down,

 

[Victoria]

It is the Fait OF Jesus. This whole idea came about 3 or 4 years ago on another forum and was basically
an idea of Red Bakers..... I originally moved the idea here for some new subject matter and no one seemed interested.

Red was not and looks like he still is not.... but as I recall over the other place we were talking about faityh in Jesus and I am pretty sure RB had said it is the Faith OF Jesus yada yada....

But nothing at all about works.

Got'cha

I wholeheartedly agree that w/out faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). So of course, we have to believe God, especially believe the Gospel of Christ Paul preached in order to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30).

Once saved, I suppose the question then is... is it our continued faith "IN" Jesus that keeps us saved, or is it the faith "OF" Jesus that keeps us saved?

Is this more along the lines of what was being discussed on the other forum?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes, that is true. You do that quite often.

Don't accuse unless you have facts to back your assertions.

You can do that now.

Prove I add to the Bible.

Of recant your baseless accusation.

 

[Jim]

Don't accuse unless you have facts to back your assertions.

You are the one that made that accusation first. I assume you are including yourself in that. I am just agreeing with you.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Got'cha

I wholeheartedly agree that w/out faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). So of course, we have to believe God, especially believe the Gospel of Christ Paul preached in order to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30).

Once saved, I suppose the question then is... is it our continued faith "IN" Jesus that keeps us saved, or is it the faith "OF" Jesus that keeps us saved?

Is this more along the lines of what was being discussed on the other forum?

I am going to DM you a link and a copy of what was said in that other forum.... I could copy and paste it here but as yet do not have the permission of the poster who posted it.....

 

[360watt]

Our brother, @Red Baker , wrote the following quite a while back in another forum. I ran across it and with his permission am posting for ideas, comments, or debate on this view. Both participants in the first thread know I am posting here. One user name redacted.

It is a back and forth of ideas... but not any that I have read here.

_________________________________________-

Red Baker:" a new thread using _______s post."



That's your take on my many posts on this phrase~"The faith of Jesus Christ." I'm convinced I have made it very clear as to what it means~ it is not understood by many, maybe most, since men have heard so many times over that it is "our" faith which justified us legally before God's law, which to any unbiased person, who can think for themselves and outside of the box of the many false religions in Mystery Babylon they should be able to reason within the parameter's of God's testimony to us......the holy scriptures that the obedience/faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ is the only material cause of God's mercy to us in making us the righteousness of God, which gives us the right to eternal life.

The efficient cause of man's redemption is God's good pleasure and there can be no other cause. The final cause of man's salvation from sin and condemnation is to the praise and glory of God's grace....See Ephesians chapter one where Paul clearly reveals these truths to us.

That being said the only way these truths can be maintained in their purity is to proclaim Jesus' faith and obedience as the Son of Man for the remission of our sins and the manner in which man receives the righteousness of God and the manner in which man in the flesh can live and please God. God declares this truth powerfully when he said:

Jesus' very birth~he had to be virgin born~he had to be God's Son, not Adam's...that within itself should speak volumes to you to prove to you that ALL FLESH is sinful as it comes from Adam's posterity....the life and death of Jesus Christ declares a gospel where Jesus' obedience/faith and righteousness is the only works that God accepts for the forgiveness of our sins, all others are wicked and sinful and are at enmity against God. All other gospels are another gospel, which in truth is not gospel (good news) but a system that leaves man without hope by causing him to trust in himself other than 100% in Jesus Christ.

I'm doing this one point at a time, so please wait until I'm finished before commenting on this thread, Your time will come, be patient, I know that's hard for you.

___________________________________________

Comments?

THE faith, is different to saving faith. It's service versus salvation.

The faith, is service in a biblically grounded church, being ready to share your faith, regular prayer times, fellowship with church members regularly etc etc..

James 2 is about this service.

Saving faith.. is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He lived sinless, is God, that He died and rose again. That by believing in Him, you have forgiveness of sin, everlasting life.

The Book of John is mostly about this salvation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Romans:
whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1 Corinthians:
That your faith should stand in the power of God.
Galatians:
The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith:
Hebrews:
without faith it is impossible to please him:
By faith they passed through the Red sea...
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down,

The Abrahamic Covenant is found described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. Faith is not mentioned nor called out as necessary to covenant.

The same with the Mosaic Covenant found throughout Exodus to Deuteronomy. Faith is not part of the narrative where covenant is described or made in these "books."
The New Covenant is found in and described in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and neither is faith mentioned or named as necessary for covenant, or atonement/salvation.

Therefore, according to Scripture faith is not named or mentioned as necessary for covenant or salvation/redemption, etc.

Now, I agree Abraham exhibited faith but where the covenant terms are mentioned faith is not included or mentioned in the terms of covenant.