brightfame52
Active Member
When the faith you have is authored from without yourself and implanted from another source such as the Grace of God!
The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
- Thread starter MTMattie
- Start date
civic
Active Member
That’s a bad translation it’s faith in Christ.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
No it isn't... There was a large debate on another forum about the "faith of Jesus"
Red was in it on the plus side of it....
Let's see if I tag him here if he will come explain.
@Red Baker ... calling @Red Baker
Will you please explain about the Faith OF Jesus and how it applies to us?
Thanks.
brightfame52
Active Member
What is the Faith of Jesus Christ ? For example:
Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Contrary to what many believe and teach, the genitive phrase Faith of Jesus Christ is not speaking of the believers Faith, but of Christ's Faith/Faithfulness. The word Faith in all three of these scriptures are genitive nouns meaning its Christ's own Faith/Faithfulness in view. To be Justified by the Faith of Christ is simply being Justified by His Faithfulness or Obedience. Rom 5:19 points to that, its being made righteous by the obedience of one, that one being Christ.
Same thing in Phil 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Gods Elect are made, declared legally righteous or Justified by Christ Faithful Obedience to fulfill all conditions needed before Gods Law and Justice in their behalf.
Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Contrary to what many believe and teach, the genitive phrase Faith of Jesus Christ is not speaking of the believers Faith, but of Christ's Faith/Faithfulness. The word Faith in all three of these scriptures are genitive nouns meaning its Christ's own Faith/Faithfulness in view. To be Justified by the Faith of Christ is simply being Justified by His Faithfulness or Obedience. Rom 5:19 points to that, its being made righteous by the obedience of one, that one being Christ.
Same thing in Phil 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Gods Elect are made, declared legally righteous or Justified by Christ Faithful Obedience to fulfill all conditions needed before Gods Law and Justice in their behalf.
All bad translations!!
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Jesus was a man, and who, as a man was under the Law expected to be obedient to the Law.
You fail to respect this about Jesus and lean more heavily on His Divinity to the exclusion of His humanity.
I would presume that you've never experienced the Person of the Holy Spirit in your walk and appear to me to be man-centered in all your experiences with the Almighty. What is faith but trust. Here, read this:
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1.
The Greek word is "ὑπόστασις" hypostasis. Faith is the "hypostasis" of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The word is also found here:
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3.
Defined as: [#5287] from a compound of [#5259] (hupo) and [#2476] (histemi); a setting under (support), i.e. (figurative) concrete essence, or abstract assurance (object or subject.)
Was it His humanity that purged our sins or was it His Deity that purged our sins?
Now, why would the translators of the KJV translate the "hypostasis" as [a] "person"? Faith is a Person?
Yes, faith is a Person and that Person is Christ/Messiah/Anointing. Faith-ful (and True) is one of Jesus' Names.
Hypostasis is where we get "Hypostatic" as in Hypostatic Union, the very doctrinal term for Jesus being BOTH God and man. Was it His humanity upholding His Deity; or was it His Deity upholding His humanity? According to you it is His humanity upholding His Deity. But you would be wrong. It is His Deity that was upholding His humanity. Another proof that Jesus' temptation/testing was a proving of His humanity and not His Deity. He was a most unique Person, someone of whom there is no other like Him. Being hungered, walking up the staircase that led to the pinnacle of the Temple and whether to throw Himself down, or observing all the kingdoms of the world [to that date] address His humanity, who He is and the pride of His life. These were not testing His Deity. He knew who He was. At the age of twelve discussing with the priests the things of God He was aware that God was His Father ["My Father's business"], remember?
But I am getting ahead of myself. The thing is that as a man He was expected to function "in all ways" as a man and this included trusting God as God and as His Father. He was tested "in all ways" as a man who is tested being just a man. And as a man He was limited in His knowledge which is why He asked questions in order to ascertain more information in order to proceed as a man would, and this includes faith-ing God, or trusting God and being trusted as a Son. The point being that as a man He was tested as men are tested and this includes having faith in God. If "My God, My God" from the cross doesn't address Jesus as a man instead of, "My Father, My Father" [why hast thou forsaken me] then Jesus was not a man who was "tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin" doesn't speak to you that as a man He is able to succor experience things as a man then He cannot be our Mediator. For we need someone who can understand what a man goes through to be our High Priest to represent us to God, and God, to us. But let me ask you...Jesus was a Carpenter. Did His stepfather, Joseph, teach Him in woodwork or did He immediately have total knowledge of His craft?
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 2:16–18.
Maybe you see Jesus as 60-40, or 70-30? Seventy as Deity/Divine and thirty being man? Is that the formula? Or was He 100-100 [%] fully man and fully God? He was and is the seed of Abraham and as such can be claimed as a son of Abraham. So, what measure was His humanity against His Deity? I suffer, He suffered. I get hungry, He got hungry.
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. Mark 14:34.
In His prayers to God it was necessary for Him to
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1 Corinthians 2:4–5.
There is a faith that is of the wisdom of men - [which is not faith at all] - and there is a faith that is the power of God. Which one is given of God? Everything about salvation is from God. Everything about salvation originates with God and not men. Like Lazarus, men are dead in trespasses and sin. Lazarus could not exercise any faith to be resurrected or made alive. He lay in the tomb four days, and it could have been five or six days, or a month, the point is that faith is from above, not below, and faith cannot be exercised by dead men walking. It, or should I say, HE is [the] gift of God.
Does this apply to Jesus?
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6.
But God Himself says, "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
So, Jesus as a man had to have faith in God as God and in His Father as His Father. And when Jesus prayed, He prayed the will of God, and by being in one accord with the Father was the key to answered prayer. Did He pray for twelve legions of angels? No, He didn't. His purpose was not to suffer the cross, but He welcomed it. Several times He said He was going to Jerusalem to die. His "face" was set towards it. So, there is a faith that is measly and deficient and that is the faith of mere mortals, mere men. And then there is a faith that is from God. That is the faith that moves 'mountains.'
Is there any passage in Scripture that says that men's faith is like a mustard seed that grows and in whose branches the birds of heaven lodge? Or is it Christ's faith that is likened to such a tree? My faith might seek this or that, but I have experienced His faith that accomplished what it set out to do. Many times, this has happened to me. And when this faith was given to me and through whom it came, I received what it sought without fail. This is the faith Jesus had, and I had the same faith - BUT it was given to me to experience, and it didn't come from me for I recognize not only His Voice and His Word, but His Presence that accompanied it. Faith is Christ. And Christ is faith. And it was His faith that God and Father honored which enabled Him to live and to save that which was lost. And that which was lost are all those whose names were written in by God in the book of life of the lamb.
So, yes, Jesus had faith. And it is His faith through which anyone is saved.
dwight92070
Active Member
In Galatians 3:22 the Greek word "insou" (sp?) can be translated as either "of" or "in".
In Romans 3:22, it is the same word - which is either "of" or "in".
In Galatians 2:16, "insou" is again used along with "Christou", with can be translated "of" or "in" Christ. Then "Christou" is used a second time later in the verse - again meaning either "of" or "in" Christ.
In Philippians 3:9 we see "Christou" again, which is either "of" or "in" Christ.
Given the overall teaching of the Bible I think the translation "in" is much more accurate than "of".
Also the Greek word for faith is "pistis", which was translated 382 times in the New Testament as "faith" and 3 times as "faithfulness".
We certainly all believe in the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, but I don't believe the "faith of Jesus Christ" is what the Bible is referring to.
However, if the "faith of Jesus Christ" refers to the gospel message itself, which I suppose is possible, then I could see the word "of" being used in that context.
One example of this is in Galatians 1:23 "but only, they kept hearing "He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy." In this context, I think "faith" is referring to the gospel of Jesus Christ or one might say, "the faith of Jesus Christ". But I don't of any verse off hand that actually uses those words, i.e. "the faith of Jesus Christ", where it is referring to the gospel message itself.
In conclusion I believe "faith IN Jesus Christ" is much more accurate than "faith of Jesus Christ". Obviously the Unitarians prefer the latter, which would identify Jesus more as ONLY a man, because we, as men, exercise OUR faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. However, Jesus, being God in the flesh, did not need faith - rather, as was said by Red Baker, He Himself is the OBJECT of our faith. Also Red Baker pointed out that Jesus is not in the great "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews 11. If anyone was to be our highest example of having faith, we would certainly think it would be Jesus. But He is missing from that list. Obviously because Jesus did not need faith - He was the object of their faith and ours, being God in the flesh.
brightfame52
Active Member
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Greek Word: τελέω
Transliteration: teleō
Strong's [#5055] from [#5056] (telos); to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt.)
Over 300 Prophecies and Promises in the Old Testament were made by God to Israel. Jesus fulfilled all of them.
And especially this:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17–18.
The Ceremonial Law was given by God to the children of Israel. This Law is identified as substitutionary in nature. This means that an animal is chosen and slain by the priest and offered to God for the yearly atonement of the sins of Israel. When John said, "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world [of Hebrews.]" And I say "Hebrews" because under the Law the animal that was slain was killed and whose blood was for the yearly [temporary] atonement for the sins of the children of Israel. It was not slain for the atonement of [non-Hebrew] Gentiles. Gentiles were never under the Law God gave to Israel. It is in this respect that Jesus was slain [by God] and whose blood was shed to atone the sins of Israel. The animal was not slain to atone the sins of Gentiles. God never instructed nor commanded this and there is nothing in the Law that claims this. The Law given by God in the sacrificial offering for Israel's sins and was instructed and commanded by God for this purpose. So, when Jesus said He came to fulfill, He meant that in like fashion the animal was slain to atone the sins of the children of Israel He, too, was slain to atone finally and eternally the sins of the children of Israel. This means Jesus' sacrifice is limited in scope to only the children of Israel because the animal that was slain yearly as a temporary measure is now fulfilled by Jesus in a permanent conclusion or end. His sacrifice of Himself was once and for all for [Israel.] And since death could not hold Him, He resurrected to life.
Are there new prophecies or promises given and still awaiting fulfillment? Yes, there are. His second coming is one of them. The actual giving of the Promised Land is another. But that purpose of His first coming was to offer Himself to God as a sacrifice in place of the animal that was offered yearly except His offering of Himself is forever. And the target people to whom it was effected to atone is Israel, anyone and everyone who is the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ONLY. Saul understood this. His mentioning of "Gentiles" in his letters cannot be identified as "non-Hebrews" for as rabbi and Pharisee He knew and knows that non-Hebrew Gentiles were not promised anything by God. So, if he is referring to Gentiles as non-Hebrews, and that they are recipients of God's promises of redemption (salvation), then Saul is teaching a change in the Law where no change exists. In this case, then Saul is teaching a change in the Law that Jesus said can never be changed. For any change in the Law would effectively destroy the Law. So, "Gentiles" in Saul's letters cannot be "non-Hebrew" Gentiles but mixed-race Hebrews who are called "Gentile" and not "Jew" the same that Jews called mixed-race Hebrews "Samaritan" and not "Jew" by Jews who are not mixed-race. Samaritans were the descendants of the ten northern kingdom tribes including Manassas and Ephraim (two Egyptian-Hebrew) sons of Joseph. This makes more sense when Saul's words here in his Ephesian letter is addressing mixed-race Hebrews who grew up Gentile in Gentile lands when conquered by both the Assyrian and Babylonian armies and exiled and assimilated into Greek culture (Hellenized) circa 722 BC and 586 BC, respectively.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11–13.
This coincides with Peter here:
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.
There is only ONE Church and Bride and they are Israel.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
I came to finish the works of The FATHER . And glory hallelujah HE SURE DID .
To the trenches jim and all . The LORD be OUR SALVATION and another gospel gonna grave every one who buyes it .
Never let go of the TRUTH my friend . THAT ONE MUST BELIEVE , MUST BELEIVE JESUS THE CHRIST .
Let us never offer up false hope for if a man does the blood of the other Will be on HIM .
ITS JESUS or its all in vain . Budda and muhammed and any man cannot save themselves . ALL them religoins
are of the darkness . ONLY IN CHIRST JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE and ONLY HE can set one
free from the power of darkness and of satan . ITS that real and its that serious my friend .
That we preach ONLY JESUS to this generation . Soon the ecumenical harlot and her c hildren
will rage war against the saints . A peroid of another crusades will begin and if a man complies
not he no buy and he no sell , he be hunted to the ends of the earth as a hater of all humanity
and what they will all beleive is GOD . but no sir , no its not , ITS THE DARK ONE .
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
The sooner this generation learns that it is NOT entitled the far better off it had been .
Enough with this entitled to ones opinion .
IF the man speaks contrary to the truth , rebuke him . t hat simple .
Not me , not you , not any is entitled to his or her opinion .
The only opinion that matters IS That which be OF GOD ALL MIGHTY .
Hope that encouraged you .
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
True . It is FAITH IN CHRIST .
Anyone wanna please explain to me why i am seeing our churches running full force RIGHT INTO
ecumenical interafaith . CAUSE I CAN DARN SURE TELL US
ITS NOT FAITH IN CHRIST they be a teaching at all . ITs the lie of anti christ .
I dont make my bed with a harlot . Nor support any and all who do so . We must expose the darkness
NOT try and find common ground with it . Preaching the true gospel of YE MUST ACTUALLY BELEIVE IN JESUS THE CHRIST
to be saved . cause that other go spell or lovespell they be preaching , HAS DENIED FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST . that be a fact .
brightfame52
Active Member
See post 24
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Faith IN CHRIST . that is what applies to us . Do we have FAITH IN CHRIST .
Do we trust HIS WORDS
DO we beleive HIS GOSPEL
Or has our faith been in another jesus all along . one that always twists something the ORGINAL JESUS said and taught
and later the apostels wrote to us .
And woe, woe woe , now we even got massive amounts of christains , Cino ,
who have all their faith IN UNBELEIF . because it cant be both . EITHER WE TRUST IN JESUS
and WE TRULY BELIEVE one must BELEIVE IN HIM to be saved
OR , its all unbeleif . WHich one we gonna trust in
a big ol path of unbelief cloaked to appear as love
OR THE REAL D EAL , THE REAL LOVE OF GOD that PREACHES JESUS and the dire need to BELEIVE ON HIM to be saved .
cause false love saves none . Ecumincal interfaith will lead this people ONLY to the day of their
own destruction and perdition . JESUS preaching TIME in the house .
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Christ JESUS already did all that was necessary . yes indeed .
Wont hear me aruging one little bit about that . No sir .
But you will see me raging war against the ecumincal interfaith harlot
WHO DARN SURE has DENIED FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST to be saved .
THAT WHORE sold the false religoins a lie as well as christendom
and worse more and more within chrsitendom sure seem to want to believe her lie she calls love .
THAT WHORE lied and they expect me to join hands with that . Want the short answer or the long .
The short . NO
The long HECK NO .
I aint g onna do it . i totally refuse to join hands in unity with those who love a lie . wont do it .
I pray many others come out of it as well . ITS JESUS preaching time in the building .
Peterlag
Active Member
I think it's "of" and not "in" and the oldest English translations agree with me.
Peterlag
Active Member
Then you wiped Jesus off the map and made it not about him and his faith but about you and your faith.
Peterlag
Active Member
What I wrote that you are responding to was written to someone else who said his faith was the Lord's. You then responded to what I asked him like if I was asking you. So I don't get your point in the above post.
brightfame52
Active Member
Faith in Christ is the answer of a purified conscious or heart persuaded that they were Justified before God by the covenant blood and faithfulness of Jesus Christ.
brightfame52
Active Member
I don't see how you come up with that conclusion because Christ himself is the author and finisher of the faith we have in him. The faith is created by the Spirit of Christ. Heb 12:2 See it's His Faith imparted to His Spiritual Seed, and Abraham's Spiritual Seed. It's not of ourselves.
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