The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man

[jeremiah1five]

False, Gentiles are included in the New Covenant, that is why Paul was made a Apostle, A new Covenant minister unto the Gentiles 2 Corinthians 3:5-6

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Let's ask Jeremiah about that.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31–34.

Jeremiah says the New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.)

God, through Jeremiah says, the New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

There are NO GENTILES included in this covenant. There are NO GENTILES included in any of the other two covenants: Abrahamic and Mosaic.

YOU are adding to the Bible. And what does God say about adding to His Word spoken or written:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

Jeremiah's prophecy SHOULD have "reproved" you, SHOULD have "corrected" you, but you refuse the Word of God for the word of brightflame52.
The Word of God calls you a liar.

 

[FreeInChrist]

OK folks.... I had started this thread because several years ago @Red Baker had posted the following in another forum and
I thought it warranted comments fereom here.

RB seems to have lost interest but if you look at what he said perhaps you will be more focused for comments....

I will not participate in his thread... but encourage you all to.

I will only comment that the link he posted that started his thread is no available now as it could not be found.

It starts with RB quoting the link I can not get

Quote from:RB, You hang your hat on the precept of faith OF Jesus; yet you seem not able to define what that could possibly be. The writer of Hebrews defined faith in Chapter 11 and presented us with examples of some of faith of some of the key biblical characters. There was Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the prophets, and of course one of Paul's favorite, i.e., Abraham. We read there that all these were commended, i.e., obtained a good report, through their faith.

Guess who is not mentioned in all of that Chapter as having faith. We read not a single word about the faith OF Jesus in that entire chapter. If, as you insist, our salvation rests upon the faith of Jesus, certainly Hebrews of all the books in the NT, would have said something about the faith of Jesus. Jesus occupies the central theme in Hebrews. The great subject of the book is Jesus Christ. And yet for all of that, not one thing is ever said about Jesus having or needing faith. That is because the very idea that Jesus needed to have faith in God is simply ludicrous.

All those spoken of in Hebrews 11 were mentioned because of their faith in God. But Jesus isn't one of them. Why? Simple! Jesus did not need to have faith in God, He was God in the flesh. He is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2). Jesus is the subject of our faith. It is that faith, faith IN Jesus, whereby we are saved. (KJV)Gen 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him for righteousness. It was Abraham's faith that was counted to him for righteousness. It is our faith, our believing, in God, in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that is counted to us for righteousness; counted to us for righteousness, i.e., justified, i.e, saved.

John tells us that he wrote his gospel "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31)

It is by believing, by having faith, that we have eternal life. It is our believing; it is our faith.

Quote from: 4WD Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 07:26:46RB, You hang your hat on the precept of faith OF Jesus; yet you seem not able to define what that could possibly be.

That's your take on my many posts on this phrase~"The faith of Jesus Christ." I'm convinced I have made it very clear as to what it means~ it is not understood by many, maybe most, since men have heard so many times over that it is "our" faith which justified us legally before God's law, which to any unbiased person, who can think for themselves and outside of the box of the many false religions in Mystery Babylon they should be able to reason within the parameter's of God's testimony to us......the holy scriptures that the obedience/faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ is the only material cause of God's mercy to us in making us the righteousness of God, which gives us the right to eternal life.

The efficient cause of man's redemption is God's good pleasure and there can be no other cause. The final cause of man's salvation from sin and condemnation is to the praise and glory of God's grace....See Ephesians chapter one where Paul clearly reveals these truths to us.

That being said the only way these truths can be maintained in their purity is to proclaim Jesus' faith and obedience as the Son of Man for the remission of our sins and the manner in which man receives the righteousness of God and the manner in which man in the flesh can live and please God. God declares this truth powerfully when he said:

Quote from: PaulGalatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Jesus' very birth~he had to be virgin born~he had to be God's Son, not Adam's...that within itself should speak volumes to you to prove to you that ALL FLESH is sinful as it comes from Adam's posterity....the life and death of Jesus Christ declares a gospel where Jesus' obedience/faith and righteousness is the only works that God accepts for the forgiveness of our sins, all others are wicked and sinful and are at enmity against God. All other gospels are another gospel, which in truth is not gospel (good news) but a system that leaves man without hope by causing him to trust in himself other than 100% in Jesus Christ.

Quote from: 4WD Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 07:26:46The writer of Hebrews defined faith in Chapter 11 and presented us with examples of some of faith of some of the key biblical characters. There was Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the prophets, and of course one of Paul's favorite, i.e., Abraham. We read there that all these were commended, i.e., obtained a good report, through their faith.

I'm doing this one point at a time, so please wait until I'm finished before commenting on this thread, Your time will come, be patient, I know that's hard for you.

At this point there is little more on the OP subject so I just want you to get the jest of what I posted and agreements or disagreements

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

It’s obedience not faith.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross

Hebrews 5:8
Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

My previous post still stands. Nowhere does it say in the Bible Christ had or needed faith.

Now like the above scriptures which are true, more truth based upon scripture.

1-Jesus used the word pistis or its derivatives a total of 41 times. Look it up in your concordance if you own one.
2- Every time Jesus used the word He was talking about someone else’s faith and not “ His Faith “
3- Jesus never used the faith in the first person referring to His “ Faith “.
4- No book in the entire NT ever refers to “ Jesus Faith “
5- Jesus is always the object of Faith never the recipient of faith
6- All the Apostles refers to their own faith in Christ .
7- Saving Faith is in Christ alone
8- God has no need for Faith
9- The Savior has no need for faith since He is not a sinner
10- Faith is needed for sinners alone and not the Holy Son of God who was / is Impeccable

Faith is the belief in things unseen. Remember the words of the Author of Hebrews: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (11:1).

Since Jesus is God He has perfect knowledge of all things as He claimed and the disciples affirmed on numerous occasions when they said we know that you are the Son of God for you know all things. Jesus knew what was in mans heart. There is no reason for Jesus to have faith since He knows all things and all things were made by Him and through Him and in Him all things exist. He knows the beginning from the end as the Creator. He shares all the same Divine attributes as the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is no faith in heaven there is only sight. The 2 natures in Christ solve the question of faith and Jesus as a man has all the attributes of God. So Jesus had no need for faith since He sees the things unseen by man. He always said and did what He heard and saw the Father doing 24/7 read about it in John 5.

hope this helps !!!

Yes i agree its by faith . works without faith means naught . Faith without obediance
Is dead my friend . Obediance is not the problem , its if anyone believes they can attain righteousness
be justified by the works of the law , THEY are decieved .
But obediance is not the p roblem . Abraham Beleived , Abraham obeyed .
They mixed something up on you all . We are saved soley by the grace of GOD , Faith in CHRIST JESUS
whom God did send . But if one obeys HIM NOT , THEY WERE NOT HIS .
For whom we love we obey . This is a fact friend .
So is this , FOR GOD has GIVEN US HIS SPIRIT , and by HIS SPIRIT we are unctioned to do what pleases God .
What a man loves
and who a man loves is who and what a man obeys .
Whether of sin unto death , for many love the lusts of the f lesh
OR whether of obediance unto righteousness .
Whether a wicked man
or whether a sheep , they are known by their fruits .
The fruit of the wicked is to sin
The fruit of the SPIRIT is in all goodness , righteousness and TRUTH
proving what is acceptable to GOD ,not to this ever changing world and its views .
Teaching them to OBSERVE , TO DO , all things that i have commanded you .
Obediance is not the problem
ITS WHO and WHAT WE DO OBEY that might be the problem .
For many walk after the flesh
and few the SPIRIT . But then few there be who are HIS . Its our duty to remind all , yes even correct
brethren in any sin , in any e rror . For IT IS HE who works in us
AND HE KNOWS how to keep His church growing and safe from deception .
But remember HE works through the body . Which means of course HE uses
sheep To rebuke , to correct , to instruct with righteousness , to edify and not allow destruction upon the church .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

It’s obedience not faith.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross

Hebrews 5:8
Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

My previous post still stands. Nowhere does it say in the Bible Christ had or needed faith.

Now like the above scriptures which are true, more truth based upon scripture.

1-Jesus used the word pistis or its derivatives a total of 41 times. Look it up in your concordance if you own one.
2- Every time Jesus used the word He was talking about someone else’s faith and not “ His Faith “
3- Jesus never used the faith in the first person referring to His “ Faith “.
4- No book in the entire NT ever refers to “ Jesus Faith “
5- Jesus is always the object of Faith never the recipient of faith
6- All the Apostles refers to their own faith in Christ .
7- Saving Faith is in Christ alone
8- God has no need for Faith
9- The Savior has no need for faith since He is not a sinner
10- Faith is needed for sinners alone and not the Holy Son of God who was / is Impeccable

Faith is the belief in things unseen. Remember the words of the Author of Hebrews: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (11:1).

Since Jesus is God He has perfect knowledge of all things as He claimed and the disciples affirmed on numerous occasions when they said we know that you are the Son of God for you know all things. Jesus knew what was in mans heart. There is no reason for Jesus to have faith since He knows all things and all things were made by Him and through Him and in Him all things exist. He knows the beginning from the end as the Creator. He shares all the same Divine attributes as the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is no faith in heaven there is only sight. The 2 natures in Christ solve the question of faith and Jesus as a man has all the attributes of God. So Jesus had no need for faith since He sees the things unseen by man. He always said and did what He heard and saw the Father doing 24/7 read about it in John 5.

hope this helps !!!

its obediance to the FAITH . that is what matters .
obediance not to the works of the law as a means to be justified .
Obediance to the FAITH . And who we obey IS WHOSE we are .

 

[brightfame52]

God is faithful so is Jesus hence He is God.

Was Jesus faithful as a Man, High Priest unto God ? Heb 2 17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Was Jesus faithful as a Man, High Priest unto God ? Heb 2 17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

To even ask that question smacks of sheer stupidity.

To even wonder such a thing

To me that borders on blaspheme.... cut and dried.

He was fully man when He was tempted. Or do you think he suck a Mounds Bar in the pocket to have when Satan was not looking????

You maynot care for Jesus. I do not care for you.

You may not trust Jesus. I sure as he double hockey sticks would not trust you.

You may not love Jesus.... YOu,SIR, are not my brother and I can assure you I do not love you.

 

[brightfame52]

God chose to leave His people for about 1500 years condemned under the Law of Moses. Since it could not justify, and only reminded of sins (Heb 10:1-4), it kept men in prison!

I agree with all you shared except this point, I dont believe the elect were ever condemned under the law of moses, it was a schoolmaster, plus Christ though not yet incarnate still had as surety the elects law condemnation already charged to Him.

 

[brightfame52]

Let's ask Jeremiah about that.

Paul had more light than Jeremiah, the Gentile inclusion in the Covenant was a Mystery even to the Prophets

 

[brightfame52]

The bible makes it clear that believers were at first before they believed, Justified by the Faith or Faithfulness of Jesus Christ Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Understanding that the elects Justification was completely effected by Jesus Christ, that it was finished objectively by the Faithful Obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Surety representative.

Lets look at the times Paul uses the phrase or similar Faith of Jesus Christ Rom 3:22

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:16,20

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 3:12

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Phil 3:9

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And its interesting this phrase is used 7 times !

 

[Jim]

Did He as a man have need to pray? Did He pray with faith? Heb 5:7

No, He prayed with absolute knowledge and understanding.

Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
Heb 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
Heb 5:10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

 

[civic]

No, He prayed with absolute knowledge and understanding.

Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
Heb 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
Heb 5:10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Yes Jesus was fully God lacking nothing.

 

[brightfame52]

No, He prayed with absolute knowledge and understanding.

So you saying Jesus Christ as a man when He prayed He didnt pray with Faith. You know what scripture says he is the author and finisher of the saints faith Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The word author is the word archēgos:

1. the chief leader, prince
   
   1. of Christ
2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

Barnes writes:

Looking unto Jesus - As a further inducement to do this, the apostle exhorts us to look to the Saviour. We are to look to his holy life; to his patience and perseverance in trials; to what he endured in order to obtain the crown, and to his final success and triumph.
The author and finisher of our faith - The word "our" is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God - occupying in this, as in all other things, the pre-eminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/12-2.htm

 

[Red Baker]

@brightfame52

I agree with all you shared except this point, I dont believe the elect were ever condemned under the law of moses, it was a schoolmaster, plus Christ though not yet incarnate still had as surety the elects law condemnation already charged to Him.

Only by nature we all were, yet still loved by God through Christ and God's election of grace from before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:3​

“Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

 

[FreeInChrist]

So you saying Jesus Christ as a man when He prayed He didnt pray with Faith.

BINGO... @brightfame52 ... YOU NAILED IT...HE PRAYED WITH THE ...WAIT FOR IT.............................................

The Faith of Jesus........

You know what scripture says he is the author and finisher of the saints faith Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The word author is the word archēgos:

1. the chief leader, prince
   1. of Christ
2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

Barnes writes:

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

To even ask that question smacks of sheer stupidity.

To even wonder such a thing

To me that borders on blaspheme.... cut and dried.

He was fully man when He was tempted. Or do you think he suck a Mounds Bar in the pocket to have when Satan was not looking????

You maynot care for Jesus. I do not care for you.

You may not trust Jesus. I sure as he double hockey sticks would not trust you.

You may not love Jesus.... YOu,SIR, are not my brother and I can assure you I do not love you.

What is this all about????

 

[brightfame52]

Only by nature we all were, yet still loved by God through Christ and God's election of grace from before the foundation of the world.

Agreed thats why by nature we were not condemned or under wrath, but worthy of wrath as the vessels of wrath are

Ephesians 2:3​

“Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

Correct, only not objects of wrath, in fact while in that condition by nature the elect obtained mercy, look at verses 4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[Jim]

So you saying Jesus Christ as a man when He prayed He didnt pray with Faith. You know what scripture says he is the author and finisher of the saints faith Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The word author is the word archēgos:

1. the chief leader, prince
   1. of Christ
2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

Barnes writes:

Hebrews 11 called by some to be the "Hall of Faith" lists the very hallmarks of faith. Interesting that Jesus is not listed. If Jesus were truly the leader, the hero, the greatest of those demonstrating faith, one would expect to find Him listed there. It is not so. Our faith, the faith that saves, is in God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus did not need to be saved. He was one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Neither they nor Jesus had or needed faith.

 

[FreeInChrist]

So you saying Jesus Christ as a man when He prayed He didnt pray with Faith. You know what scripture says he is the author and finisher of the saints faith Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The word author is the word archēgos:

1. the chief leader, prince
   1. of Christ
2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

Barnes writes:

One thing I will hand to @brightfame52 ,

The masterful way he is able to flip a subject to counter anything anyone says, be it a forum user, or even Jesus from Scripture.

Simply amazing.... Does tend to keep one guessing, IF they are new to here.....................

 

[brightfame52]

Interesting that Jesus is not listed

He is the author and finisher of our faith, He is connected to the people of faith in Heb 11, His life of faith excelled theirs

 

[jeremiah1five]

He doesn't belong to Christ Abraham's seed and the heirs Gal 3:29

You interpret "families of the earth" as Gentiles and anyone that is not Hebrew/Jewish. Stay consistent. This would include the man of sin as being blessed with faithful Abraham whose blessings is given by God to everyone who is not Hebrew - including the man of sin.
Your own interporetation destroys itself under the weight of truth against it.

For the record the "families of the earth" are Abraham's descendants through Ishmael, Esau, and others who are Abraham's seed by not heirs of the promises of God.