jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Where is God's ORIGINAL command on love in Scripture and what does God teach about love (if you know.)
The Error of Supersessionism
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Rockson
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OK so you're saying I should know who God wants us to love and you say above it's towards those who keep the covenant.
Sorry but I think we see this as well,
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ ]But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matt 5:43
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
IF you knew Scripture, you would KNOW it is God's way:
The Hebrews will one day occupy their Promised Land and God Himself will cleanse their land of ALL Gentiles.
21 And in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. Zech. 14:21.
And if Gentiles have been cleansed of the Promised Land guess where Gentiles will live? Jewish Christians who obey the LORD and obey the Torah will live in their own land and enter the gates of New Jerusalem. And where will Gentiles live?
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs (Gentiles), and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Rev. 22:14–15.
Surely, after the judgment unbelievers will be in "hell" and where does this leave Gentile Christians? Living outside of the Promised Land. And before the 1000 years expire do you know what happens?
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev. 20:7–10.
I want to ask one thing of you after considering the Scripture above.
Is this Bible? Is this not the Word of God? WHO is REALLY doing the ethnic cleansing?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Did Jesus change the Law?
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but we don't need what you think is an original command on love. What we need to know is putting together the fulness of what God has said about the subject in the Bible. If you think you've got some kind of original statement which excludes us from loving all people then spell it out. I'd like to see it. I and Tom pointed out to you that we're to LOVE our enemies. Matt 5:43 Do you accept that or reject that.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The misunderstanding you have with regard to Saul's letter to Jewish Christians at Ephesus is that the Gentiles mentioned are circumcised Gentile proselytes and uncircumcised God-Fearers. THEY would be in the synagogues when Saul or other Jewish Christians testified about Israel's Messiah named Yeshua. And they would be the first Gentiles born-again and united to Christ - NOT any covenant for the Abrahamic Covenant is with Abram the Hebrew and his seed and Gentiles do not come from 'his seed.' But Jews who became born-again are already in covenant and through the new birth become united to their Messiah and Christ.
If there were any Gentiles mentioned in the text that didn't refer to uncircumcised Roman, Scythian, or Greeks, then the Gentile mentioned are proselytes and God-Fearers. And uncircumcised Gentiles who were born-again were few in number, very few until the destruction of the Jewish Temple. And after the destruction of the Jewish Temple and Israel as a whole, Rome passed laws forbidding Jews from returning to their land. So, there was a great scattering of Jews throughout the Roman Empire and beyond. As the Times of the Gentiles began more Gentiles were being born again. And without the Hebrew Scriptures and a Jew to interpret them Gentiles developed their own theology which based upon their hatred for Jews and the fact that they were destroyed by Romans began to see this destruction as God "casting away His people whom He foreknew" and gradually unmoored their Christianity from its Hebrew roots and created a new religion which grew to what it is today, and still unmoored from its Hebrew roots. So, in effect it became "another gospel."
It would be well for you to look at the whole Gospel of God from Genesis to the advent of the Holy Spirit instead of the Holy Spirit onward. You miss a great deal when you focus only on the Jewish Scriptures from Matthew to Revelation. True, Biblical Christianity did not begin there. It is found much earlier beginning in Genesis and thru Malachi.
None of that has anything to do with God having one new man
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Sad to read you carry on to love (which isn't an emotional love, but a love originating with God and His command and instruction to His people on what love is and WHO to love), but you are not practicing and don't obey nor know what God's command concerning love is and what Jesus taught when He spoke of it in Matthew 5.
In the Torah God commanded and instructed His covenant people on love and WHO to love, and when Christ arrived and taught God's people, He didn't change the command and instruction on love He originally gave to His people He came to save. So, let's put away that Constantinian Gentile theology and look at the Scripture and let the Word of God tell you what to believe rather than you are telling the Word of God what to say.
The true, Biblical Church was founded by God in the desert after He delivered His people out of Egypt. God "called out" ("ekklesia') His people out of Egypt and nearly four million Hebrews were led by Moses in the desert and built a Tabernacle and God gave them His Law which to obey and live by. In Numbers Balaam was taken to a high mountain overlooking the Jordan valley and he said "behold, they cover the face of the earth."
God Himself situated the twelve tribes around the Tabernacle. Three tribes to the north, three to the south, three to the west, and three to the east. All Gentiles/Canaanites were on the other side of the Jordan and later Joshua was led by God to 'cleanse' the land and destroy them and occupy the land. By the way, the command by God on love is found in Leviticus and the keyword in this book is "holiness." God is Holy. God's love is Holy. So, here's the command and instruction on love:
The Original command:
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people (member of any tribe): neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour (member of any tribe living next to you): I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother (member of the same tribe) in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour (member of any tribe living next to you), and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people (member of any tribe), but thou shalt love thy neighbour (member of any tribe living next to you) as thyself: I am the LORD.
Lev. 19:15–18.
Israel's Messiah, Redeemer, and King was prophesied to and for Israel of twelve tribes (Deut. 18:15, 18.)
Israel's Messiah, Savior, and King was prophesied to save His people from their sins, hence the Name Yeshua/Jesus
(Matt. 1:21.)
When Jesus arrived John the Baptist said He was sent to and for Israel as per covenant and prophecy to the people of Israel:
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Jn 1:30–31.
Jesus Himself said:
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15:23–24.
Jesus sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10:6.
Jesus taught the descendants of the twelve tribes. They consisted of ten tribes from the northern kingdom, and two tribes from the southern kingdom. Peter's sermon in Acts 2 also makes distinction in his sermon to "Ye men of Israel" (northern kingdom tribes), and "Ye men of Judah" (southern kingdom tribes.)
When Jesus came there was still animosity between the tribes in Israel. After all, they warred with each other many times after they split into two kingdoms each claiming rightful heir after Solomon died.
Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law, which means any change in the Torah would effectually destroy the Law. So, Jesus did not change the Law but obeyed it and taught His disciples to obey it. In all Matthew 5 Jesus brings up a section of the Torah and teaches obedience to the Torah. In His discourse He brings up the original command in Leviticus:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour (member of any tribe living next to you) and hate thine enemy (member of any opposing kingdom tribe).
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies (member of any kingdom tribe), bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mt 5:43–44.
And among the kingdom tribes there was "cursing" and there was "mistreatment" and "abuse" among the descendants of the kingdom tribes. The King of Israel made attempt to quell their hatred among the tribes. But Scripture says that later in the end times Israel's King will do just that: Unite His people under His reign.
If you understand God's original command to the twelve tribes, you will understand God is commanding Israel to love Israel. There is NO COMMAND of God for Israel of twelve tribes to love the Canaanites/Gentiles (non-Hebrew) anywhere in Scripture. As a matter of fact, He commands Israel to "not mingle with the nations (Gentiles) nor learn their ways" (which are not God's ways.) But we know from Scripture Israel did not always obey their LORD and suffered for their disobedience.
As a matter of fact Christ commanded His people Israel to not "give that which is holy (God's love) to dogs (Gentiles), and to not cast their pearls (God's Word) to swine (unclean Gentiles.)
YOU SAID: "Sorry but we don't need what you think is an original command on love. What we need to know is putting together the fulness of what God has said about the subject in the Bible. If you think you've got some kind of original statement which excludes us from loving all people then spell it out. I'd like to see it. I and Tom pointed out to you that we're to LOVE our enemies. Matt 5:43"
RESPONSE: You have just been given "the fulness of what GOD has said on the subject" but you'll find a way to deny His Word and maintain your error and love those God commands not to love. In other words, you'll disobey Jesus Christ and lean on your own understanding in the vanity of your mind.
YOU SAID: "Do you accept that or reject that."
RESPONSE: As a Biblical Christian I accept AND OBEY what Jesus Christ, the One who gave the Torah in the first place, said 'on the subject.' As Christian I am a disciple of Christ and receive the whole counsel of God on how to live under His command and reign. Now, I ask you: Do you accept the Word of God or reject the Word of God "on this subject"?
One more thing, depending on your obedience to Christ I will also tell you what our response and attitude towards those not Christian is to be from Scripture. Don't forget, as Christian I am under command to not cast my pearls to swine.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You know Jews equally hate Gentiles or worse. Jonah tried to keep forgiveness from Gentiles.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
You've got to be kidding.........
Scofield did claim that Israel was like "a church" when they had the tabernacle. I disagree but you certainly can't deny that God is worshipped by the hand of men. He dwells in the His own house.
The Temple He crafted for Himself. The Temple of our body.
Do you hate Stephen as much as you hate Paul?
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Galatians 1:6-9, Jeremiah1five
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
When you understand the persons Saul is writing about is proselytes and God-Fearers then you come to the knowledge of the truth.
It was the hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Roman, Scythian, Greek Gentile who after the destruction of the Temple unmoored true, Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots and created 'another' gospel/religion, one that is standalone and not connected to its Hebrew roots.
And THAT is not the true Christianity of the bible.
It's a beast.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14.
Cursed are they that do not his commandments and will not have right to the tree of life and will not enter the gates of the city.
One cannot be disciple and follower of Christ if one does not be a disciple and follower of Christ.
Are we to only hear the Torah and not do the Torah? Seems a curse is upon those that only hear and not do.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word [Torah], which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word [Torah], and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word [Torah], and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law [Torah] of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 1:20–25.
Be a doer of the Torah and be blessed or be a hearer of the Torah only and be cursed.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Dt 30:19–20.
Everything can be obeyed in the above verse except being given the land because it is promised to Abraham and his seed and Gentiles are not his seed. But the same Torah Gentiles say is abolished or ended or doesn't need to be obeyed is the same Torah by which God will judge the nations (Gentiles.)
And the same Torah Gentiles say is abolished and ended and doesn't need to be obeyed is the same Torah by which Abraham and his seed will live under throughout eternity.
7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son:
But he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.
Proverbs 28:7.
There are countless passages in Scripture commanding obedience to God's Torah and NONE commanding disobedience to God's Torah.
18 Where there is no vision, the people perish:
But he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
Proverbs 29:18.
9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law,
Even his prayer shall be abomination.
Proverbs 28:9.
Still one new man
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
That Land is only for the heir of Abraham. Messiah. Jesus Christ. All else are subjugated to Him.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
So, you are of the belief that we do not have to obey God's Torah?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The land is for the Abraham and the seed of Abraham: the Hebrews/Jews.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. Gen. 15:7.
If it was meant for one Person God would have said so when He made the covenant with Abraham and the children of Israel. He would have said:
"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, but I'm going to keep this land because my Father gave it to me to inherit it. So, although I am saying I will give this land to you to inherit and I don't lie, I'm going to take it away and keep it later on during the Millennium and you get to pay rent. Rent is obedience. That's all. Enjoy your life.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Really.... I literally LOL when I read this. That is something else. I would have never thought you would have made such a "wild" argument such as this.
How about... the 5 different times we find in Scripture that the "the earth is the Lord's....
Starting with
Exo 9:29 And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD'S.
Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Dietary and sacrificial law? No we do not have to obey them
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
"Dietary" and "Sacrificial" are man made distinctions. The law is the law. There never has been such distinctions in Judaism.
Which is why Jews have a very hard time embracing Christ. They don't see their sinfulness through the law. They only see their supposed "righteousness".
