Only for one with the intelligence of a rabbit maybe.
The doctrine of election
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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It's an obvious contradiction that he, with his Calvinist theology, will consider
TibiasDad
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
The ones in 2 Pet 3:7,9 are the elect, the reprobate He has purposed to punish. They are mentioned in the same chapter and context Vs 7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
So you think Hes not willing they should perish ? They are not part of the beloved in Vs 9
You evidently didnt know the context.
TibiasDad
Active Member
2Pet 3:3Above all, you must understand
“You”, here in this statement refers to the audience to whom Peter is writing. These are presumably believers, though not everyone who heard this letter when it was first read was necessarily a believer at that point in time.
that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
Here we are introduced to a second set of individuals, namely, scoffers who are radical and vociferous unbelievers bent on mocking the foretold return of Christ.
5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
“They” refers back to the scoffers, but it shows the manner in which they scoff; they deliberately forget that which they once knew to be true. This is very similar to Paul’s delineation of the downward spiral of man in the latter half of Romans 1. (Perhaps this is why Peter reminds his readers of Paul’s sometimes difficult words in his letters!)
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you,
“Dear friends” and “you” refers back to Peter’s intended audience, believers, and thus those already born again.
not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The question here, is this: To whom does “anyone” and “everyone” refer? Does it refer to the “dear friends” and “you”, meaning believers? Indeed it does, but is it exclusively so?
No, it cannot be exclusively about believers, for Peter’s readers are, in large part, already believers, and thus already not currently perishing nor are they in need of salvatory repentance. So it doesn’t make sense if this is exclusively about those already believing, but it does if Peter is referring to all who are yet unbelievers who have yet to repent and are presently perishing. (Nor can you impose that those who are yet unrepentant unbelievers are elect and will eventually believe and repent. Peter does not qualify the “anyone” or “everyone” as eventual believers.)
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah he is writing believers, converted, beloved elect.
TibiasDad
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
We are not in agreement. None of the scripture is written to unbelievers, its all written to the elect. Thats who God is longsuffering to in 2 Pet 3:9 the beloved elect who are yet to be converted. His longsuffering towards them is their Salvation 2 Pet 3 15
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
The Longsuffering vs 9 is usward, the elect
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
TibiasDad
Active Member
“To us” is also toward those who count slackness, he does not wish for even those who “count slackness” to perish but to come to repentance also.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Its plain as day, its usward , the elect. See there thousands of elect that had not yet even been born, they all had to be born in Adam, experience their lostness, then given repentance unto life. Probably when the last elect vessel of mercy is granted repentance, Jesus will return, nobody knows though.
TibiasDad
Active Member
It is plain as day all humanity, including scoffers. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (believers) and not only ours (believers) but also the sins of the whole world (every other person in the world).
1John 2:2 There is no qualifier besides “whole” for “world”.
Doug
civic
Active Member
ditto !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
If some of the scoffers are elect, they will not perish, they will be given repentance. The point is, its only about the elect, not all humanity.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (believers) and not only ours (believers) but also the sins of the whole world (every other person in the world).
1John 2:2 There is no qualifier besides “whole” for “world”.
The “and not only ours” shifts the focus away from the “believers” to another group of people different from the believers.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Only for the elect
TibiasDad
Active Member
It doesn’t say “only for the elect”, it says “the whole world” without any specific limitation. That is literally what it says!
καὶ (also) περὶ (for) ὅλου (all) τοῦ (the) κόσμου (world) “also for all the world”!
“Ours” is specific to those designated to a particular group, “also for all the world” is not specific, meaning it is a set who are not part of the “ours” group that is comprehensive is scope.
Doug
civic
Active Member
As we see doctrine can be blinding when our presuppositions are read into the text
TibiasDad
Active Member
Exactly! We all have to guard against presuppositions, that’s why I lean so heavily on the text itself and what the syntax and grammar of the specific text allows.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
It doesnt have to, Spirit taught believers understand it. Jesus was raised according to promise a Savior to Israel Acts 13:23
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Repentance is given to Israel Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins
Israel in these scriptures isn't national ethnic Israel, but Gods elect from among Jews and Gentiles, a Spiritual Israel
Elect Israel isn't confined to a single nation, but they're all over the entire world
Paul preached particular atonement
TibiasDad
Active Member
Eisegesis! All who believe are Israel! All may believe! Nobody is without the ability to believe the gospel.
Doug
