TibiasDad
Active Member
“Whoever believes will not perish but have life everlasting” - God
Whoever has been saved will come to believe. - brightframe52
Doug
The doctrine of election
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Whoever has been saved will come to believe. - brightframe52
Doug
dwight92070
Active Member
Isaiah 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My CHOSEN ONE in whom my souls delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations."
No one is chosen or elect unless they are in Christ, who is Himself the Chosen One. Once in Christ, you have become part of the Chosen People, the Elect, the Body of Christ. In God's sovereignty, He has decided that all those who freely choose to put their faith in Jesus, will share in His "chosenness" and in His "election".
The body of Christ, from eternity past (called the remnant of Israel and the chosen in the Old Covenant), was always going to heaven. The only question has always been, will you freely choose to join them?
Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."
Even though the Israelites were chosen by God, not all of them remained true to God, only the remnant of Israel was saved. Paul makes that very clear when he quotes Isaiah in Romans 9:27:
"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;' "
The same is true today, even though all men are called, only those who repent and put their faith in Jesus will be saved.
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." John 12:32
However, even as many Israelites, who were chosen, did not remain faithful, and thus were lost, it is also true today. God does not force anyone to remain with Him. We will always have the free will to remain or to leave. Again, the Body of Christ will go to heaven, but will we remain in that body, or choose to leave? The choice is ours.
No one is chosen or elect unless they are in Christ, who is Himself the Chosen One. Once in Christ, you have become part of the Chosen People, the Elect, the Body of Christ. In God's sovereignty, He has decided that all those who freely choose to put their faith in Jesus, will share in His "chosenness" and in His "election".
The body of Christ, from eternity past (called the remnant of Israel and the chosen in the Old Covenant), was always going to heaven. The only question has always been, will you freely choose to join them?
Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."
Even though the Israelites were chosen by God, not all of them remained true to God, only the remnant of Israel was saved. Paul makes that very clear when he quotes Isaiah in Romans 9:27:
"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;' "
The same is true today, even though all men are called, only those who repent and put their faith in Jesus will be saved.
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." John 12:32
However, even as many Israelites, who were chosen, did not remain faithful, and thus were lost, it is also true today. God does not force anyone to remain with Him. We will always have the free will to remain or to leave. Again, the Body of Christ will go to heaven, but will we remain in that body, or choose to leave? The choice is ours.
brightfame52
Active Member
Dont lie on God. Christ fulfilled all the conditions God required for the Salvation of Chosen People. Now deny that
TibiasDad
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Dont lie on God. Christ fulfilled all the conditions God required for the Salvation of Chosen People. Now deny that
dwight92070
Active Member
I deny that. He fulfilled all the conditions God required for the salvation of all mankind. John said that He died for the sins of the whole world. Unfortunately, as I stated in #222, many have freely chosen to either turn away from Him after knowing Him - or to reject Him and to never know Him.
brightfame52
Active Member
@dwight92070
Thats false, only for His Church Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Thats false, only for His Church Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
CHuckle!! Now you do!!
SInce I' was born again of the Holy Spirit BY FAITH 60 years ago, then obviously I'm Comfortable with it. Whether YOU think I'm wrong or not is totally unimportant.
It's uncomfortable simply because it REMOVES CONTROL from you, and gives it to God. Humans don't like that. ONE THING that "Calvinism" gets correct is that God always moves first - WITH CONVICTION OF SIN in the case of salvation.
As another poster here put it years ago: NO conviction = NO conversion.
dwight92070
Active Member
I have 5 children with at least 2 that are not where I think they should be with the Lord. Please do not condemn yourself - all parents make mistakes and wish they would have done this or that. Please understand that as long as you have breath and they have breath, it is NOT too late. My five are all grown, the youngest is 30. Even though they are adults, you are still their dad and they are still your children - and that will be true until either you or they pass away. In fact, even death cannot change the fact that you will always have been their dad and they your children. But take advantage of the opportunity, while they and you are living, to pray each day for each one. If you truly love someone, you will pray for them. You can have more faith now and overcome now and continue to pray for them each day. Just because they get married or leave home - this does not mean that you cannot positively influence them. Your prayers for them are heard by our loving Father, who loves them more than you do. Jesus said that men ought always to pray and not to faint - we are not to give up. Jesus Himself prayed continually. Luke 5:16-17 says: "But Jesus Himself would often slip away to the wilderness and pray."
It is my desire to start each day praying - I don't always and sometimes can't do it. If I miss that time, I will try to find a time during the day to pray. Then each night as I lay in bed - I find it's a good time to lift up my children to the Lord, as well as praying literally for anyone who comes to mind. It's a good thing to fall asleep praying. I'm praying for you right now that you will be encouraged - maybe ask God once again to forgive you for you past failures, then move on with faith that He has forgiven you, and that He wants you to be fruitful now - today, by abiding in Him and in His word. I know I had many failures as a Dad, but God has graciously forgiven me. He knows I want to do better NOW. I am still their Dad and they are still my children - "adult children". I know my prayers are reaching His throne and He is answering them in His way and in His time. After God has forgiven us, we must not dwell on our past failures and sins. If they come to my mind, I just ask God again to forgive me, and trust that He has and He will again, and He will help me focus on each present day. God bless you my brother.
dwight92070
Active Member
Now, back to the topic at hand. How could God will that ALL men be saved (2 Peter 3:9) and NOT perish (John 3:16) - and yet at the same time, will that some will be reprobate? How is that NOT a contradiction?
Notice that I did not have a verse for the 2nd phrase of the sentence, because I don't believe there is one.
Notice that I did not have a verse for the 2nd phrase of the sentence, because I don't believe there is one.
dwight92070
Active Member
For God so loved the World, not just the church. Yes He gave Himself for the church, but also for the whole world
brightfame52
Active Member
Election The biblical doctrine of election teaches that God has chosen a definite and immutable number of individuals for salvation. The other side of election is reprobation, in which God has chosen a definite and immutable number of individuals (all those not chosen for salvation) for damnation. Vincent Cheung the author of sin
brightfame52
Active Member
There are two kinds of people in the world, as it was said of Israel by the sacred penmen Apostle Paul,
Its the Election and the rest
Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace[Salvation], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 ;What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it[Salvation], and the rest were blinded.
Salvation by Grace in the Purpose of God from Eternity, was only purposed for One Chosen People, a people Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 and a people in Him already given Grace and Purpose before the world began 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
And hear this, the rest of mankind God has blinded !
Now is Salvation by Grace through Faith ? Absolutely so it must stand in Election !
Its the Election and the rest
Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace[Salvation], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 ;What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it[Salvation], and the rest were blinded.
Salvation by Grace in the Purpose of God from Eternity, was only purposed for One Chosen People, a people Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 and a people in Him already given Grace and Purpose before the world began 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
And hear this, the rest of mankind God has blinded !
Now is Salvation by Grace through Faith ? Absolutely so it must stand in Election !
TibiasDad
Active Member
Your hermetic is horrid!
Rom 11:11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
Any are capable of returning to God; (as all mankind was once unblemished and in relationship with God.)
Romans 11 displays that God’s grace is not thwarted by the disobedience of those to which he has reached out and called. If the Israelites refuse to believe, God chose to accept even Gentiles who would believe him. Blindness is only intensified when someone refuses to accept God’s message. God has no desire to reject anyone but wants all men to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4) Rejection by God is purposeful but not necessarily permanent; repentance is always possible and will be accepted!
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Peter declares that Gods Saved People are a Chosen People 1 Pet 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
No conditions were performed, it was because of mercy !
But now have obtained mercy is passive voice, they were made recipients of mercy. The Mercy wasn't offered them, they were made partakers of it.
Gill writes:
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
No conditions were performed, it was because of mercy !
But now have obtained mercy is passive voice, they were made recipients of mercy. The Mercy wasn't offered them, they were made partakers of it.
Gill writes:
TibiasDad
Active Member
John 3:16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
You will note that the “whoever believes” and “whoever does not believe” are in the active voice (not passive) indicating the personal action of the individual. What is interesting, is that the “is not condemned” is a present tense, middle voice verbiage that indicates that the subject is acting on or for himself, that he is presently believing for himself by himself.
The “is condemned already” is a perfect tense, middle voice verb, which indicates the action was completed and is still complete by and/or for himself, meaning that his condemnation is certain because he has and continues to not believe.
Both actions are solely credited to the actor, not a third party, meaning that they are not caused to necessarily believe or not believe by God or any other authority.
Secondly, all people are or have been in the past in the position of being “not a people”, but those who are “now a people” are so for two reasons only: 1) That God has made it possible by providing the means to become “a people”, and 2) by man appropriating the means that God has provided to become “a people”.
That “God so loved the world” is a wholistic concept, meaning all people without exception, exclusion or limitation. There is no terminology that defines this as a particular portion of “the world”, and thus no exegetical reason or justification for imposing a limitation on it.
This is a passive wholistic act of God toward the world, and his mercy is a byproduct of his love for the world as a whole.
Doug
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brightfame52
Active Member
Rabbit trail
TibiasDad
Active Member
civic
Active Member
yep !!
