The doctrine of election

[Red Baker]

Do you people really mean "anathema"?
You believe that those who hold to "Particular Atonement" should be DAMNED!

I mean, the Reformers used some fiery rhetoric, but I thought we were past damning people for daring to "disagree with us".

I do not believe Jim truly believes that to be so.

 

[Red Baker]

Third, after everyone had self created their eternal relationship with YHWH by their free will choice of faith without any proof as 1. never sinful (ie, holy), or 2. as never believing (ie, those condemned already) or as 3. believers who chose to sin, all sinners were flung down to Sheol, Rev 12:4-9, in the earth, a prison planet with a rehab centre in it, (ie, the church). From Sheol sinners are sown into the world, Matt 13:36-39, for the sanctification of the sinful elect to speed up the coming of the heavenly marriage and the heavenly age.

This again is one strange teaching that I have never heard the first person even come close to teaching this.

For now, no man.... past, present, or future, will boast before God, that his relationship with Him was self-created, that is blasphemy.

1st Corinthians 1:27-31~"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

You need to explain your three points in more details before we, or anyone else are capable of commenting on them by using the scriptures.

 

[atpollard]

I do not believe Jim truly believes that to be so.

A agree.

"Anathema" has joined terms like "Pelagian" and "Heretical" as words too freely thrown around without regard for what they REALLY mean! Those are terms that indicate someone/something is NOT of the Body of Christ ... that is a serious claim to make and not some quick point to be scored in an argument.

 

[TedT]

All men choose "reprobation" for themselves [As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." - Romans 3:10-12 NKJV] ..

Indeed - only sinners are sown into this world of man. But some are not reprobate but are elect sinners since before the world was founded. This is the meaning of the world of man being separated into those believers whose sin does not condemn them and those who have never believed who are condemned already, Jn 3:18.

This separation must be based upon a reason and that reason must be based upon the free will decisions of the people involved because GOD desires no one to die in hell. By their free will the reprobate must have chosen a sin that made them unforgivable in GOD's sight and there was nothing HE could do about that but condemn them for it.

 

[TedT]

@TedT
Saying that, to me thats saying the Gospel of Gods Grace is anathema to you

Wow - ad hominem much?

I believe GOD's grace is the only way those elect who chose to be sinful in HIS sight can be saved from the consequences, legal and natural, of their choice because the enslaving, addictive, power of sin makes them totally unable to change their minds unto holiness...sinners love the lie more than the truth until grace intervenes.

The reason the reprobate do not get HIS grace is not by HIS choice but because they repudiated HIM as their saviour from sin so HE CANNOT be their savior by grace because a free will decision cannot be changed by a higher power and still be understood to be free!

 

[TedT]

Your post is very strange to say the least. This is the gospel according to TedT, which is blatantly "another" gospel.

It is totally the salvation of sinners by the life, death and resurrection of the incarnate Son! The details do not change this from the essential gospel. Who are the never believers who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 and when were they condemned already?

 

[TedT]

Only our first parents were created after the image of God, with a free will

Since the serpent entered the garden before Adam ate as an evil person with evil intent, your assertion seems to imply that Satan and the reprobate must have been created evil by GOD with no free will and by the nature of their creation they were never able to become HIS Bride at all.

I disagree:

GOD is light. Light cannot create darkness.
GOD is love. Love cannot create evil.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit, Matthew 7:18
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water, James 3:11
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.

 

[brightfame52]

Wow - ad hominem much?

I believe GOD's grace is the only way those elect who chose to be sinful in HIS sight can be saved from the consequences, legal and natural, of their choice because the enslaving, addictive, power of sin makes them totally unable to change their minds unto holiness...sinners love the lie more than the truth until grace intervenes.

The reason the reprobate do not get HIS grace is not by HIS choice but because they repudiated HIM as their saviour from sin so HE CANNOT be their savior by grace because a free will decision cannot be changed by a higher power and still be understood to be free!

Remember what you posted about unconditional election ? My response stands

 

[TedT]

This is one confused statement. You have created a definition for the word election, that is contrary to its meaning, but one that serves to support your corrupt understanding of the gospel of free justification by the obedience of Jesus Christ for God's elect.

What does the word election mean? It signifies to single out, to select, to choose, to take one and leave another. Election means that God has singled out certain ones to be the objects of His saving grace, while others are left to suffer the just punishment of their sins.

I do not change the meaning of election at all, I only oppose the definition that election is unconditional to insist that election and reprobation were both conditional upon the free will decision of the person to choose to put their faith in the gospel of salvation found only in the Son as truth leading to election or as the lie of a false god, leading to reprobation.

 

[TedT]

You believe that those who hold to "Particular Atonement" should be DAMNED!

Weird segue...only the non-elect reprobate should be damned and will be as soon as the sinful elect repent! Only the elect are under the promise of salvation; the call to all to come to HIM is to prove that the damnation of the reprobate is their choice (when they had a free will) and not GOD's choice by creating them that way.

 

[atpollard]

Weird segue...

I am a Particular Baptist (as distinct from a General Baptist). The two "flavors" of Baptist found together in virtually every Baptist Church are those that believe the Atonement [the subject of "Limited" vs "Unlimited" in the C&A debate] was a GENERAL offer to "all without exception" or an effectual offer to a PARTICULAR people called "as many as were appointed" or "His sheep". I am not a Calvinist (we don't baptize babies like our Presbyterian brothers), so I chose to make a distinction from Calvinist terms to Baptist terms.

However, the point stands that "anathema" means "let them be cursed/damned" and it is worth asking if those calling the beliefs of those they disagree with "anathema" really mean what they are saying!

 

[TedT]

This again is one strange teaching that I have never heard the first person even come close to teaching this.

For now, no man.... past, present, or future, will boast before God, that his relationship with Him was self-created, that is blasphemy.

Your ignorance of Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) theology, does not prove your correctness.

No man, that is correct because to be a man is to prove you are already a sinner, sown into this world MATT 13:36-39 to live with the reprobate (OR as a reprobate) Matt 13:27-30 to learn that the ways of evil are to be shunned to further your sanctification.

All men are sinners who are enslaved / addicted to sin and so have no free will. So, to be free to make a true free will decision (not the fake free will of the addicted), the decision must have been made before our conception as sinners or GOD is creating us evil, a cursed suggestion.

We were ALL created as spirits in the image of GOD, ie, able to be a perfect Bride for HIM if we accepted HIS proposal and we were ALL among the Sons of GOD who sang HIS praise when HE proved HIS divinity and eternal power Rom 1:18-20, which we all saw, Job 38:7. After we self separated into elect or reprobate by our response to HIS proclamation of the eternal gospel, Col 1:23, we (ie, the sinful elect or reprobate) were sent to Sheol in the Earth to be sown, not created, into mankind, Matt 13:36-39, for the redemption and sanctification of those under the promise of election to salvation.

 

[atpollard]

This separation must be based upon a reason and that reason must be based upon the free will decisions of the people involved ...

I say, this separation is based upon:

• [Exodus 33:19 NLT] The LORD replied, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh, before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.
• [Romans 9:15 NLT] For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose."

OT or NT ... Same GOD, same source of mercy, same criteria for being chosen (Him).

... because GOD desires no one to die in hell.

That is a 2 Peter 3:9 reference, isn't it?
We both know it ignores the context that Peter is speaking of Christ delaying his return to gather in as many of "you, the beloved" as possible.
So, God does not wish any of His BELOVED to perish and waits until the Father has DRAWN all that He will DRAW.

 

[TedT]

That is a 2 Peter 3:9 reference, isn't it?

AND...
Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

 

[atpollard]

AND...

So as long as you can pick verses from the OT, it is OK to abuse the context of the NT to twist its meaning?
Is that really your position?

You should have gone with "INSTEAD ...".

 

[Jim]

Do you people really mean "anathema"?
You believe that those who hold to "Particular Atonement" should be DAMNED!

I mean, the Reformers used some fiery rhetoric, but I thought we were past damning people for daring to "disagree with us".

I admit that anathema is a bit strong. But it is a detestable lie.

 

[Red Baker]

Your ignorance of Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) theology, does not prove your correctness.

No man, that is correct because to be a man is to prove you are already a sinner, sown into this world MATT 13:36-39 to live with the reprobate (OR as a reprobate) Matt 13:27-30 to learn that the ways of evil are to be shunned to further your sanctification.

All men are sinners who are enslaved / addicted to sin and so have no free will. So, to be free to make a true free will decision (not the fake free will of the addicted), the decision must have been made before our conception as sinners or GOD is creating us evil, a cursed suggestion.

We were ALL created as spirits in the image of GOD, ie, able to be a perfect Bride for HIM if we accepted HIS proposal and we were ALL among the Sons of GOD who sang HIS praise when HE proved HIS divinity and eternal power Rom 1:18-20, which we all saw, Job 38:7. After we self separated into elect or reprobate by our response to HIS proclamation of the eternal gospel, Col 1:23, we (ie, the sinful elect or reprobate) were sent to Sheol in the Earth to be sown, not created, into mankind, Matt 13:36-39, for the redemption and sanctification of those under the promise of election to salvation.

Marking this so I can come back to it.