I do not believe Jim truly believes that to be so.
The doctrine of election
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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This again is one strange teaching that I have never heard the first person even come close to teaching this.
For now, no man.... past, present, or future, will boast before God, that his relationship with Him was self-created, that is blasphemy.
You need to explain your three points in more details before we, or anyone else are capable of commenting on them by using the scriptures.
atpollard
Well-known member
A agree.
"Anathema" has joined terms like "Pelagian" and "Heretical" as words too freely thrown around without regard for what they REALLY mean! Those are terms that indicate someone/something is NOT of the Body of Christ ... that is a serious claim to make and not some quick point to be scored in an argument.
Indeed - only sinners are sown into this world of man. But some are not reprobate but are elect sinners since before the world was founded. This is the meaning of the world of man being separated into those believers whose sin does not condemn them and those who have never believed who are condemned already, Jn 3:18.
This separation must be based upon a reason and that reason must be based upon the free will decisions of the people involved because GOD desires no one to die in hell. By their free will the reprobate must have chosen a sin that made them unforgivable in GOD's sight and there was nothing HE could do about that but condemn them for it.
Wow - ad hominem much?
I believe GOD's grace is the only way those elect who chose to be sinful in HIS sight can be saved from the consequences, legal and natural, of their choice because the enslaving, addictive, power of sin makes them totally unable to change their minds unto holiness...sinners love the lie more than the truth until grace intervenes.
The reason the reprobate do not get HIS grace is not by HIS choice but because they repudiated HIM as their saviour from sin so HE CANNOT be their savior by grace because a free will decision cannot be changed by a higher power and still be understood to be free!
It is totally the salvation of sinners by the life, death and resurrection of the incarnate Son! The details do not change this from the essential gospel. Who are the never believers who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 and when were they condemned already?
Since the serpent entered the garden before Adam ate as an evil person with evil intent, your assertion seems to imply that Satan and the reprobate must have been created evil by GOD with no free will and by the nature of their creation they were never able to become HIS Bride at all.
I disagree:
GOD is light. Light cannot create darkness.
GOD is love. Love cannot create evil.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit, Matthew 7:18
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water, James 3:11
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Remember what you posted about unconditional election ? My response stands
I do not change the meaning of election at all, I only oppose the definition that election is unconditional to insist that election and reprobation were both conditional upon the free will decision of the person to choose to put their faith in the gospel of salvation found only in the Son as truth leading to election or as the lie of a false god, leading to reprobation.
Weird segue...only the non-elect reprobate should be damned and will be as soon as the sinful elect repent! Only the elect are under the promise of salvation; the call to all to come to HIM is to prove that the damnation of the reprobate is their choice (when they had a free will) and not GOD's choice by creating them that way.
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atpollard
Well-known member
I am a Particular Baptist (as distinct from a General Baptist). The two "flavors" of Baptist found together in virtually every Baptist Church are those that believe the Atonement [the subject of "Limited" vs "Unlimited" in the C&A debate] was a GENERAL offer to "all without exception" or an effectual offer to a PARTICULAR people called "as many as were appointed" or "His sheep". I am not a Calvinist (we don't baptize babies like our Presbyterian brothers), so I chose to make a distinction from Calvinist terms to Baptist terms.
However, the point stands that "anathema" means "let them be cursed/damned" and it is worth asking if those calling the beliefs of those they disagree with "anathema" really mean what they are saying!
Your ignorance of Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) theology, does not prove your correctness.
No man, that is correct because to be a man is to prove you are already a sinner, sown into this world MATT 13:36-39 to live with the reprobate (OR as a reprobate) Matt 13:27-30 to learn that the ways of evil are to be shunned to further your sanctification.
All men are sinners who are enslaved / addicted to sin and so have no free will. So, to be free to make a true free will decision (not the fake free will of the addicted), the decision must have been made before our conception as sinners or GOD is creating us evil, a cursed suggestion.
We were ALL created as spirits in the image of GOD, ie, able to be a perfect Bride for HIM if we accepted HIS proposal and we were ALL among the Sons of GOD who sang HIS praise when HE proved HIS divinity and eternal power Rom 1:18-20, which we all saw, Job 38:7. After we self separated into elect or reprobate by our response to HIS proclamation of the eternal gospel, Col 1:23, we (ie, the sinful elect or reprobate) were sent to Sheol in the Earth to be sown, not created, into mankind, Matt 13:36-39, for the redemption and sanctification of those under the promise of election to salvation.
atpollard
Well-known member
I say, this separation is based upon:
- [Exodus 33:19 NLT] The LORD replied, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh, before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.
- [Romans 9:15 NLT] For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose."
That is a 2 Peter 3:9 reference, isn't it?
We both know it ignores the context that Peter is speaking of Christ delaying his return to gather in as many of "you, the beloved" as possible.
So, God does not wish any of His BELOVED to perish and waits until the Father has DRAWN all that He will DRAW.
AND...
Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’
atpollard
Well-known member
So as long as you can pick verses from the OT, it is OK to abuse the context of the NT to twist its meaning?
Is that really your position?
You should have gone with "INSTEAD ...".
I admit that anathema is a bit strong. But it is a detestable lie.
Marking this so I can come back to it.
Noah Webster 1828
Election
ELEC'TION, noun [Latin electio.]
1. The act of choosing; choice; the act of selecting one or more from others. Hence appropriately,
2. The act of choosing a person to fill an office or employment, by any manifestation of preference, as by ballot, uplifted hands or viva voce; as the election of a king, of a president, or a mayor.
Corruption in elections is the great enemy of freedom.
3. Choice; voluntary preference; free will; liberty to act or not. It is at his election to accept or refuse.
4. Power of choosing or selecting.
5. Discernment; discrimination; distinction.
To use men with much difference and election is good.
6. In theology, divine choice; predetermination of God, by which persons are distinguished as objects of mercy, become subjects of grace, are sanctified and prepared for heaven.
There is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:5.
7. The public choice of officers.
8. The day of a public choice of officers.
9. Those who are elected.
The election hath obtained it. Romans 11:5.
There are no other definitions which you can possibly present.
Besides, man born through Adam's generation is not free to chose to be righteous, since he lost the power to do so, he lost God's image that did have spiritual knowledge, understanding wisdom, etc. through his head, Adam. Adam had this power and we by being in Adam did as well, but by one man sin, we all are born dead in sins and trespasses whether or not you beleive this, it make no difference, it is still true. Romans 5:12; 1st Cor. 15:22; etc.
Salvation from sin and condemnation is unconditional, if conditional, then salvation would be of works, not by grace alone, which it is.
Salvation is NOT the issue here - once a person has chosen to be a sinner in GOD's sight his salvation is 100% out of his own control - a sinner cannot influence his fate in the least. A sinner cannot advance his salvation in the least because he is enslaved by its addicting power which he cannot resist except by the intervention of the Holy Spirit of grace.
BUT this does NOT impact in the least the fact that to become a sinner a man must have chosen to be a sinner, ie, chosen by his free will to rebel against GOD or HIS commands. If a man is not a sinner solely by his own will then his sin is by the will of someone else. If he is created as a sinner for any reason by any means at all, then it is by GOD's will that he is a sinner and does evil, not his own will. This idea is a perversion of the of the self revelation of the nature of GOD as just, loving and righteous.
But salvation is a red herring because my thesis in this topic is election as the title contends.
I contend that every person ever created in HIS image, ie, was created able to be a proper Bride for HIM and was created with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to accept or to reject HIS proposal of marriage, and that sin only came into existence by the free will choice of the creature to rebel against GOD's will and not by GOD's will at all.
GOD is LIGHT, holy and loving and righteous and just, with no dark, evil, unlovingness, injustice or unrighteousness in HIM at all...therefore HE cannot create evil by any means including the surrogate Adam. All evil is a perfect proof that GOD created us with a free will because evil cannot come from GOD but only from the free will of another.
Placing the blame on Adam for our enslavement to sin is also futile as it is GOD who created the system of human progeny that you claim is the method of the creation of our evil rather than our own free will desires. GOD cannot create evil by any means, even by placing us in Adam.
Since we are conceived in sin and born as sinners yet must reject that sinfulness comes from this as our creation, then we must assume that we were created, existed and lived in the spirit before we were sown into mankind, into Adam, and that we were only sown into Adam because we were already sinners due to our free will choice to be sinners pre-earth.
Pre-Conception Existence theology contends that it was also by our free will that we either accepted HIS proclamation of the gospel that any salvation from the enslavement to sin was found ONLY in the Son and that to reject the Son as their saviour would make them reprobate on the spot and condemned for ever.
It was our free will response to HIS proclamation of the gospel that was the basis for HIS choice of some to be under HIS promise of salvation, ie, they were chosen to be HIS elect, while HE condemned all who rebuked HIM and the Son as liars and a false god.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Doctrine of Election
1. Statement of the doctrine.By election we mean the eternal choice by God of certain definite individuals in Jesus Christ unto salvation.
There are many references in the Scriptures to this election or choice by God. It is the Lord Jesus Who declares in Matthew 22:14, "Many are called, but few are chosen (elect)." In Romans 11:5 the apostle Paul writes, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." The same apostle writes in Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen (elected) us in him before the foundations of the world...." In Colossians 3:12 he exhorts believers, "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." In Titus 1:1 reference is made to "... the faith of God's elect." The apostle Peter writes in I Peter 2:9, "But ye are a chosen (elect) generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation...." And in II Peter 1:10 he exhorts Christians, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure."
Election is only one aspect of the broader doctrine of predestination. Predestination is God's eternal (pre-) decision with respect to the everlasting destiny (destination) of all His rational, moral creatures, men, angels, and devils. There are many who become uneasy when the word predestination is mentioned. But predestination is not some hideous monster invented by theologians gone over the deep end. The Bible teaches predestination.
The Greek word from which our English word predestination is derived occurs six times in the New Testament. We find it used twice by the apostle Paul in Romans 8:29, 30: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." In Ephesians 1:5 the apostle Paul declares, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." Again we read in Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."
The word predestinate is also found in Acts 4:28, where it is translated as "determined before." There the apostle Peter teaches that Christ's crucifixion and the role in Christ's crucifixion played by wicked Herod and Pontius Pilate were predestined by God. In that context, he declares in verse 28 that these wicked rulers were gathered together "to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before (predestined) to be done."
In I Corinthians 2:7 the word predestinate is translated "ordained": "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained (predestined) before the world unto our glory." Here Paul teaches that the whole plan of salvation was predestined by God.
2. Characteristics.
The outstanding characteristics of election include the following:
a. Decretive.
Election is a decree, a decision or choice of God. God elects, and God elects whom He wills to elect. Election is part of the counsel and will of God. In Romans 8:29, 30 we read, "Whom he (God) did predestinate." In Ephesians 1:4 we read, "According as he (God) hath chosen...." Ephesians 1:11 states, "In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him (God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his (God's) own will."
b. Personal.
Election is God's choice of certain definite individuals. Election is not some vague and indefinite decree of God that merely determines that there shall be salvation. Nor is it a decision on the part of God to save a mass of human beings. But election is God's determination to save particular persons. Ephesians 1:4 teaches this: "According as he hath chosen us...." In John 15:16 Jesus says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you...." In Romans 9:11-13 the apostle Paul teaches that Jacob, a definite individual, was elected by God, while Esau, a definite individual, was not elected by God.
c. Eternal.
Election is the eternal choice of God of certain persons. Election does not take place in time and history, as God's response to the actions of men, but election is eternal election. Paul writes in Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...." In Revelation 17:8 the apostle John speaks of those "... whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."
d. Unto salvation.
The purpose of election is the salvation of those persons whom God has eternally chosen. They are not chosen merely to some earthly, temporal privileges, but they are chosen unto salvation itself. In Romans 8:29, 30 those who are predestinated are justified (have their sins forgiven and Christ's righteousness imputed to them) and glorified (go to heaven). In Ephesians 1:5 Paul teaches that we are predestinated "... unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself." In Revelation 17:8 the elect are said to have their names written in the Book of Life - everlasting life - life with God in the perfection of the new heavens and earth.
e. Gracious.
That a person is elected by God is not due to anything in that person but is due to the free, unmerited grace of God. The cause of election is not at all to be found in those who are elected, but the cause of election lies only in the will of the electing God. Those who are elected are not different or better in themselves than those who are not elected. All men, as was made plain in the previous chapter, are by nature dead in trespasses and sins. That some men, in distinction from others, should be chosen by God to salvation is to be attributed solely to the grace of God. Paul writes in Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." In Romans 11:5 he speaks of "... a remnant according to the election of grace." https://www.prca.org/books/SavedByGrace.html
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