The doctrine of election

[TomL]

Precious friend, would that be the uncomfortable [ man-proposed ] "elections"
one to salvation, and the other to Eternal Condemnation?

Or?:

Amen! The comfortable "doctrine, according to the Foreknowledge Of God"
of who would believe and be saved, and Then also be predestinated?

"What Saith The Scripture?" 2 Peter 3:9 AV:

1) "...God is Not Willing that any should perish, but that All should come to repentance."

[ No ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ "election to perish" in there, Nor in ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ there, Correct? ]​

2) God "Foreknew" those who would believe, by faith?:

a) God's ​

Responsibility ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ....... our ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ responsibility! Correct?

"For By Grace are ye Saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:​

It Is The Gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."​

(Ephesians 2:8-9 cp Ephesians 1:12-13 AV)​

b) "For whom He Did Foreknow, He also Did Predestinate To Be Conformed To​

The Image Of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."​

(Romans 8:29 cp Philippians 4:21 AV)​

3) "Saved believers" ( That "God Foreknew and Thus Chose!" ) are also Predestinated

for what Else? "What Saith The Scriptures?":​

​

"According as He Hath Chosen us In Him before the foundation of​

the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him​

in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by​

Jesus Christ to Himself, according to The Good Pleasure of His Will,...​

​

In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated​

according To The Purpose of Him Who worketh all things after​

The Counsel Of His Own Will:​

​

That we should be to The Praise Of His Glory, who first trusted in Christ."​

(Ephesians 1:4-5, 11 AV)​

Amen.

Or realize all election is not to salvation and that which is, is in Christ

Apart from union with Christ, there is no election to salvation

 

[civic]

Or realize all election is not to salvation and that which is, is in Christ

Apart from union with Christ, there is no election to salvation

Amen and we are not in Christ until we believe- Eph 1:13

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

notice the biblical order once again.

1- When you heard the gospel
2- When you believed ( the gospel )
3- After which you became in Christ, in Him
4- After hearing/believing came the indwelling Holy Spirit
5- Salvation is the result of the above and are now Gods possession.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I don't know anyone who is comfortable with the doctrine of election.

The word "Doctrine" is where the discomfort is. Romans 9 makes it abundantly CLEAR that some people are hardened (By God's actions) against the Gospel. That's not a "Doctrine" - it's just what the Bible says.

The Bible ALSO SAYS that NOBODY comes to Christ UNLESS THEY ARE DRAWN to Him by Father God. That's not a "Doctrine" - it's just what the Bible says. That Calvin and others want to create a "Theology" called "Election" is all well and good, but really unnecessary. The Bible says what it says, and that's sufficient.

 

[TedT]

The doctrine of election is not a comfortable doctrine, even if you believe you're one of the elect.

The doctrine of election is a wonderful doctrine because it is not causative of our fate as so many believe but it was / is the promise to those who choose by their free will to put their faith in HIM that HE will save them from any and all sin unto full sanctification and the heavenly marriage.

The doctrine of election that is so disconcerting to believe is the UNconditional (no reason) election to salvation and reprobation of Calvinism...

HE promised to save anyone who would put their faith in HIM, by their free will, to accept HIS claims to be our GOD and our only saviour from sin. By electing some HE did NOT cause these elect to become saved but only responded to their faith in HIM by promising the salvation by their election.

Some chose to believe HIM and became HIS elect; some rebuked HIM as a liar and a false god and became the eternally reprobate. And then some of HIS elect rebelled against HIS call for the damnation of their friends who were now reprobate by their free will and they too became sinners in HIS sight, needing to live with the reprobate to learn that they indeed must be judged and banished to hell and so leave behind their idolatry of these reprobate weeds over their GOD, as per the parable of the weeds, Matt 13:27-30.

The promise of salvation, given to us in our election, SEALED the result of our self chosen FATE - no matter what inventions we got up to after this, HE has been working out our redemption and salvation in the Holy Spirit ever since.
Berean Standard Bible
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit...
Sealed in the Holy Spirit for our faith in HIS words as truth by the promise within our being chosen, elected, by HIM to be HIS Bride.

 

[TedT]

I do include my own children. They are atheists and anti-God. I count it as a failure in my parenting.

Me too...but faith in GOD prevails, sigh.

 

[TomL]

Amen and we are not in Christ until we believe- Eph 1:13

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

notice the biblical order once again.

1- When you heard the gospel
2- When you believed ( the gospel )
3- After which you became in Christ, in Him
4- After hearing/believing came the indwelling Holy Spirit
5- Salvation is the result of the above and are now Gods possession.

hope this helps !!!

Calvinism has a defective Christology.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Amen and we are not in Christ until we believe- Eph 1:13

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

notice the biblical order once again.

1- When you heard the gospel
2- When you believed ( the gospel )
3- After which you became in Christ, in Him
4- After hearing/believing came the indwelling Holy Spirit
5- Salvation is the result of the above and are now Gods possession.

hope this helps !!!

1. God opens your eyes and ears and heart to understand
2. You hear the Gospel and believe it and are reborn from above, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is faith

Without step 1, you would never be saved. It is the work of God. You can't open your own eyes, ears, and heart.

 

[civic]

1. God opens your eyes and ears and heart to understand
2. You hear the Gospel and believe it and are reborn from above, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is faith

Without step 1, you would never be saved. It is the work of God. You can't open your own eyes, ears, and heart.

None of that is in Ephesians 1:12-14. Can you address the passage ?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

None of that is in Ephesians 1:12-14. Can you address the passage ?

Sure.

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, [God gave them the ability to hear the truth] the gospel of your salvation. When you believed [being able to hear, they believe], you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit [they are born from above and faith is the fruit of the spirit], 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

That's exactly what I said.

1. God opens your eyes and ears and heart to understand
2. You hear the Gospel and believe it and are reborn from above, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is faith

Without step 1, you would never be saved. It is the work of God. You can't open your own eyes, ears, and heart.

 

[TomL]

1. God opens your eyes and ears and heart to understand
2. You hear the Gospel and believe it and are reborn from above, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is faith

Without step 1, you would never be saved. It is the work of God. You can't open your own eyes, ears, and heart.

In your theology, that is regeneration - the impartation of spiritual life

Your problem however is the bible put faith before life and only in Christ'

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 

[civic]

In your theology, that is regeneration - the impartation of spiritual life

Your problem however is the bible put faith before life and only in Christ'

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Ditto

 

[TedT]

Your problem however is the bible put faith before life and only in Christ'

I too put saving faith BEFORE life on earth but not before our existence and see it as the cause of the separation of the holy and elect angels from the fallen demonic reprobate angels and as the consequential cause of the election of some and the passing over for election of the unforgivable unto condemnation of those who never believed, Jn 3:18.

 

[TomL]

I too put saving faith BEFORE life on earth but not before our existence and see it as the cause of the separation of the holy and elect angels from the fallen demonic reprobate angels and as the consequential cause of the election of some and the passing over for election of the unforgivable unto condemnation of those who never believed, Jn 3:18.

Spiritual life i.e. that which is produced by regeneration

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 

[TedT]

Spiritual life i.e. that which is produced by regeneration

Spiritual life is a RETURNING of a sheep to the Shepherd by regeneration, a sheep who went astray into sin AFTER becoming His sheep by putting his saving faith in Him. The choice for saving faith was made before his earthly existence since all are conceived in sin; his return to Christ after going astray into sin is made in his earthly life by the grace of GOD.

Why I believe this?
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
To return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.

Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock, people of His kingdom). It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.

Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.

But what of the people who rejected HIS claims as lies and who rebuked HIM as a false god, Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
And what was the blemish that had them being passed over for election to join HIS Family?
Deuteronomy 32:20
“And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.”
They are characterized as never having had any faith in YHWH as GOD nor saviour and so were condemned already, Jn 3:18.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The doctrine of election is not a comfortable doctrine, even if you believe you're one of the elect.

And, of course, it's completely useless anyway. John 6:44 makes it clear that NOBODY comes to Christi excepr they be "DRAWN" to Him by God, Romans 9 makes it clear that God has everything to do with who's DRAWN to Jesus, and who's not.

"Elect" people don't know that they['re "Elect" before the fact. Evangelists have to consider everyone to be "Elect". Paul did - he was all things to all men that he might win some (1 cor 9:22). When a person is Born Again of the Holy Spirit, then, by definition, they were "Elect".

 

[TomL]

Spiritual life is a RETURNING of a sheep to the Shepherd by regeneration, a sheep who went astray into sin AFTER becoming His sheep by putting his saving faith in Him. The choice for saving faith was made before his earthly existence since all are conceived in sin; his return to Christ after going astray into sin is made in his earthly life by the grace of GOD.

Why I believe this?
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
To return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.

Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock, people of His kingdom). It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.

Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.

But what of the people who rejected HIS claims as lies and who rebuked HIM as a false god, Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
And what was the blemish that had them being passed over for election to join HIS Family?
Deuteronomy 32:20
“And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.”
They are characterized as never having had any faith in YHWH as GOD nor saviour and so were condemned already, Jn 3:18.

From scripture we know it is preceded by faith in Christ

John 20:31 (The Syriac New Testament Translated into English from the Peshitto) — 31 But these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God; and that when ye believe, ye may have life eternal by his name.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 6:53 (ESV) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

 

[TedT]

The doctrine of election is not a comfortable doctrine, even if you believe you're one of the elect.

I am completely comfortable with the doctrine of election because I accept that the offer to become one of HIS elect was given to every person ever created - everyone had the same chance to become elect by their free will decision to accept HIM as their GOD and saviour by faith not proof OR to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god by faith with no proof and thus being passed over for election.

Those who accepted HIS claims to be our GOD by faith ie, without proof, became HIS chosen,ie, the elect unto salvation, and those who chose to rebuke HIM as a false god and liar, by faith with no proof were condemned on the spot.

 

[TedT]

But God is not like that as salvation is available to everyone without exception.

It was, before the creation of the physical universe proved HIS divinity and eternal power which locked everyone into their pre-made free will decisions. It is NOT available to sinners who are condemned already, sigh.

After the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power was given, no free will decision could be made about these ideas: the condemned became those condemned already and the acceptors entered into the promise of salvation called our election. Finito.

Then the process of bringing the sinful elect to holiness was started (on earth) to separate the elect from their idolatry of the evil ones so that the evil ones could then be condemned in fact, ie, sent into the outer darkness.

 

[TomL]

I mentioned a video where someone buys a religion with which he feels most comfortable.

I don't know anyone who is comfortable with the doctrine of election. Maybe some are. You may say I feel comfortable with it because I believe I'm one of the elect. But you would be wrong.

My best friend for many years is a devout atheist. I am not comfortable with the fact that he may never be saved because God did not choose him. I once asked him how convinced he is that there is no God. I was at a car dealership with him. I drove him there so he could buy a green Ford van. I sat with him for hours waiting for the new van to be ready, discussing God and Christianity. That's when I asked him how convinced he is that there is no God.

He replied, "I'm as convinced there is no God as I am that I will be driving home tonight in my Emerald Green van." The van was finally ready, and I followed him home with the intent to play games there. About halfway home, the van broke down. He said he couldn't start it again because the battery was dead. I drove him around for about an hour looking for a place to buy jumper cables. But it was late, and no store that stocked jumper cables was open.

God sent him a very clear message that night, but to this day he is still a devote atheist. I continue to pray that God will reach him.

I have other friends, some of whom died before I was a Christian. And I pray to God that they were elect and that I will see them again. I had a girlfriend in the '70s who was killed in a car accident. I didn't become a Christian until many years later, but when I did, I prayed constantly that she was saved. I even told God I would be willing if she took my place if it came to that. That's not scriptural, AFAIK, but it is what it is.

The doctrine of election is not a comfortable doctrine, even if you believe you're one of the elect.

The is no doctrine of unconditional election to salvation

 

[civic]

It was, before the creation of the physical universe proved HIS divinity and eternal power which locked everyone into their pre-made free will decisions. It is NOT available to sinners who are condemned already, sigh.

After the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power was given, no free will decision could be made about these ideas: the condemned became those condemned already and the acceptors entered into the promise of salvation called our election. Finito.

Then the process of bringing the sinful elect to holiness was started (on earth) to separate the elect from their idolatry of the evil ones so that the evil ones could then be condemned in fact, ie, sent into the outer darkness.

if they were locked into their decisions before they were created they have no free will or ability to choose otherwise- they were all preprogrammed like robots.