The Covenant Context of Salvation

[Studyman]

Deuteronomy 4:7-10 — Israel’s Special Calling:
The passage you referenced from Deuteronomy emphasizes that Israel was to be a nation that draws near to God. God’s law was intended to bring them closer to Him, showing the world that Israel was special and unique in receiving God's revelation. In verse 10, God’s intent was to make them learn to fear Him, teaching them obedience to His commands so that the covenant relationship would be continually reinforced.

How is that any different than Paul's teaching.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God "may be perfect", throughly furnished unto all good works.

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Dead in trespasses and sins) but under grace? (Alive to serve the Living God) God forbid. (That means No!)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience "unto righteousness"?

Or Jesus Teaching.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Can you not see that according to what is actually written in scriptures, God's Law is intended to bring Abraham closer to HIM, Caleb closer to Him, Zacharias closer to Him, and here we can see His Law also was intended to bring Paul closer to Him.

However, while Israel was called to obey, it’s crucial to note that the law itself was never designed as the ultimate means of salvation. The law could not justify; it only pointed to the need for grace.

This is true, the Law can't take away sins, it only defines sin, so men can strive against them.

This is clearly articulated in Romans 3:20, which states, “For by the works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight.”

You are using Paul's Words to justify sin. Paul's message here was not for men to stop obeying God.

If you will answer just 2 questions honestly, you will prove to yourself that you are not understanding Paul's teaching in Romans 3.

Here is the first question I would ask and see if you are willing to answer.

"In the Old (Levitical) Priesthood, when a man sinned, what did the LAW, given by God to Moses, require this man to do?"

You can answer with Moses own words if you would like. (I'll give you a hint, Lev. 4)

And the second question, "When Jesus ran the money changers out of the Temple, what were they selling, and what was their purpose?

Most preachers, who are here to promote a specific religious sect or business, refuse to answer these 2 simple questions which perfectly explain Paul's teaching concerning the Pharisees who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them. I truly hope you are willing to engage in an honest discussion about this chapter, by answering these 2 easy questions..

The law pointed to sin (Rom. 7:7), showing humanity their inability to perfectly obey.

Yes, without God's Law, we cannot become the New Man, created after God in righteousness and true holiness, as God's Law defines righteousness and Holiness. I reject your religious philosophy that God creates Laws for men to walk in, but withholds from them the capacity to walk in them, then lies to men by telling them they can walk in them, then slaughters them by the thousands when they refuse to walk in them.

This popular religious philosophy, promoted by this world's religious system, is an insidious lie, and a wicked judgment against God.

Caleb’s Faithfulness and Obedience:
I agree with your example of Caleb and how his obedience was acknowledged by God (Num. 14:24). Caleb demonstrated a spirit of faithfulness to God, trusting in His promises. However, I would caution against equating Caleb’s obedience with perfect sinlessness.

I didn't Johann. I said the exact opposite. Show me in any of my posts where I said or even implied that Caleb was perfectly sinless. I said the opposite, that we know Caleb sinned, please read my post. It is very frustrating when religious men create a strawman out of thin air, and then argue against it as if I said or even implied such a thing.

What I know about Caleb, is that HE Loved the Lord his God with all his heart, with all his soul and with all his might. And in this short life, here today, gone tomorrow, this is the whole duty of men, according to Scriptures.

The Bible recognizes that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). The key difference between Caleb and others was his response to God's call, his faith and obedience, and his trust in God’s power over the circumstances (cf. Num. 13:30). While Caleb was faithful, he still needed the atoning work provided through the priesthood and sacrifices for sins (Heb. 9:7).

That is exactly what my post said, almost word for word.

The Role of the Priesthood:
You raise an important point about the priesthood and its role in the Old Covenant. The priests, after the order of Aaron, served as intermediaries, offering sacrifices for sin on behalf of the people. The atonement they provided was temporary and insufficient for permanent reconciliation.

This is foolishness my friend. Davids, Shadrack's, Calebs sin was forgiven. God isn't going to raise them again and have them offer the Blood of Jesus for their sins. Their place in God's Kingdom is permanent. They have been reconciled to God, and their atonement provided for. Where is the Scripture that teaches Caleb, David, Jeremiah, Meshak and others only received "Temporary reconciliation"? Or that their atonement was only temporary and insufficient?

Heb. 9: 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works "to serve the living God"?

Caleb, David, Abednego were cleansed, their flesh sanctified. Where is the teaching from scriptures which say Caleb's sanctification was only temporary?

This is why Hebrews 9:6-10 emphasizes that the Old Covenant priesthood could not bring the people into the true presence of God- it pointed forward to something greater.

Yes, it pointed to something better, but it is simply false to say Caleb, Joshua, Elijah, or even Rehab, wasn't brought into the true presence of God through the Levitical Priesthood.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ"

Why was there a need of "another Priesthood"?

Should we not accept god's answer for this question?

Mal. 2: 1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. 3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32) 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused "many" to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted "the covenant of Levi", saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

And what does Heb. 8 say about this Covenant.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then "should no place have been sought for the second". 8 For finding fault with them, (Priests who corrupted themselves, and led God's people astray) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Now Johann, how is this not Truth, according to Scriptures?

The New Covenant establishes a better priesthood through Jesus Christ, the eternal High Priest (Heb. 7:24-25), who offered Himself once for all (Heb. 9:26-28). The work of Jesus as the ultimate high priest fulfills the Old Covenant sacrifices and establishes a permanent reconciliation between God and humanity.

This is mostly true, accept it is not true that Abraham, Caleb, David didn't receive "permanent reconciliation".

In conclusion, while I recognize your emphasis on God's mercy and the role of obedience under the Old Covenant, the key difference in the New Covenant is that it is not based on works of the law but on grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

It was never based on the sacrificial "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were still promoting in Romans 3. It was always based on men turning to God, and Loving Him with all their heart, with all their soul and with all their mind. That part has remained the same from Adam and Eve to the present day. The only thing that changed, according to what is actually written, was the manner in which God's Laws are received, and the manner in which forgiveness for transgressing God's laws are provided for.

Of course, to accept these truths, would nullify the need for this world's religious businesses who compete with each other for contributing members. In the same way this same truth, nullified the need to purchase salvation from the religious businesses of this world that existed in Jesus' Time. So these truths will not be received by "many" as Jesus Prophesied.

My hope is that you might step back and consider what is actually written, and challenge the "many" who come in Christ's Name, but are not "doers" of His Sayings.

The New Covenant is God’s gift of salvation, fulfilled in Christ, which goes beyond the law and works-based righteousness, offering eternal atonement for all who believe.

The Old Covenant indeed pointed to the need for atonement and obedience, but it also highlighted the need for God’s grace, which would ultimately be fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

We can go deeper should you wish.

The Jesus of the Bible said in the Last Book of the NT.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be". 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may "have right" to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And yet, if I believe in this Jesus, I am accused by this world's religious system of promoting a "Works based" righteousness, and am demeaned and ridiculed as denying the Christ.

I wish you would consider what is written, and perhaps even answer my easy to answer questions. But such a discussion can be rarely had on this forum, as men are here to justify their specific religious sect and philosophy, as opposed to examine and honestly discuss what is actually written.


Nevertheless, someone one might also see the holes and hypocrisy in this world's religious system and might consider. It is my wish that they do.

 

[GodsGrace]

The New Covenant has the same Laws, only how God's people receive them has changed. You can read this for yourself where God actually defines for you His New covenant. And only the manner in which forgiveness for transgressing God's Laws has changed. And the Command to "Live by" these Words of God still remains the same, according to the Jesus "of the bible". And the purpose of the Laws, to teach men to learn obedience, is also the same, as Paul teaches.

Just want to say that both you and @Johann in post 180, are both correct in your assessment of the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

I often ask what the difference is when discussing WORKS,,,which has become an uninvited word in Christianity.

Never get an answer.

You have both given the answer.
There is really no difference.

The difference is in how it is received and HOW we can become a part of the Covenant...
and HOW we can now obey it's rules and regulations.

And, yes, Christianity has rules and regulations...even though some don't believe so.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God "may be perfect", throughly furnished unto all good works.

This is the Prize Paul taught to press towards. The High Calling of God which is in Christ Jesus. This remained the same for us, as it was for Abraham.

Gen. 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

As it was for Caleb.

Lev. 11: 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

And the Jesus "of the Bible" commanded the same goal.

Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is not taught by this world's religious system, made up of hundreds of different religious sects and businesses all competing with each other for contributing members. But as you can see if you want to, the requirement to "Yield ourselves" to God, remains today just as it did for Abraham and Caleb and Paul. It was the Ministry that changed.



Yes Johann, "the Levitical priesthood were all provisions for atonement and reconciliation in light of sin". The goal is still sinless perfection as the Jesus "of the Bible" and Paul teaches us. Because God knows we will fall from time to time as we learn obedience, HE created this Priesthood with its sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins, "Til the Seed should come". Who would usher in a "better ministry", based on better promises. I pointed this out to you in reply to your stated philosophy "The people of Israel must obey God's commandments for their relationship to remain intact". The goal is sinless perfection. Paul labored so that he might be accepted by God. Peter taught to be diligent we may be found of Him without Spot and Blameless. According to what is actually written in scriptures, this is the Goal, in fact, according to the Inspired Words of God, "it is the whole duty of man". (Ecc. 12:13)

Please hear the first and greatest Commandment Jesus and His Father told you about.

Duet 6: 5. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

The Jesus "of the Bible" confirms this commandment is still in force.

Matt. 22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Men are told by God, and His Son, and the Apostles God chose and gave to Him, to "Strive against sin", to "Go and sin no more", to "Turn away from sin", to "Not let sin reign in our mortal bodies", to repent and turn to God. And to do these things "with all our might". Just as HE stressed in the examples HE had written for our admonition, like the 300 men against the 10,000. Or the choice between obeying God or get thrown in the fiery furnace. Or fighting a Goliath with a slingshot. At each story, and they are many, men were placed in impossible situations, and told to give it "our" best, trusting in God to secure the victory in our weakness.

Of course, this is Spiritually talking about the Sin that so easily besets us. The battles we fight in our mind against the religious philosophies and traditions of this world that surround us, just as they surrounded Caleb and Joshua and Jeremiah and Paul.

And a Priesthood existed for Abraham, and another was ADDED to Israel, "After the Order of Aaron", as an advocate between God and man on this journey towards the prize of this high calling of God. All pointing to the Prophesied Messiah, God's High Priest after a different order.

The only thing that changed, according to God's Definition of His Own New covenant, was the Priesthood.

The deceiver will mock, "Oh, God needs your help in securing your Salvation" or "You are trying to save yourself without Jesus" or "You are trying to earn your Salvation". This is of course a deceitful wickedness mocking God and comes from the spirit of the prince of this world. God could make me perfect/sinless with a single Word, just as HE could have for Adam and Eve. But HE Chose to Glorify men who "Seek to worship Him in Spirit and Truth", as Jesus my Lord instructs. Those who by patience continuance in well doing, "SEEK FOR" Glory, Honor and Immortality, as Paul teaches, but this world's religions do not. Those "who are diligent that they may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless", as Peter teaches, but this world's religious system teaches against.

This describes Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Shadrack, Zacharias, Simeon, and all the Faithful examples of men in the Bible, all of whom "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".

The only difference between any of these men, is the Priest God chose to be an advocate between them and Him. We didn't have to be subject to carnal men and a temporary Priesthood. As it is written: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect".





The Feasts of the Lord, and the sacrifices and offering for sin, are two completely different topics. We no longer bring our offering to the Levite Priest for our sins, but we continue to Honor God in His Feasts, as they are shadows of things Yet to come. This is why several years after Jesus ascended to His Father, Paul no longer brought offerings to the Levite Priest, but he still taught to "Keep the Feast". Feasts that are rejected and forgotten by this world's religious system, replaced by manmade high days which bring untold wealth and power to the merchants of this world.

Atonement is a Holy day foreshadowing a future event when the sins of the world will be placed on the head of the author of all sin, where it belongs. (Lev. 16) Jesus bore the guilt, and is still bearing the guilt of the sins of this world. Feast of Atonement speaks of the time when sin is placed back on the head of satan where it belongs, and he is driven into the uninhabited wilderness. All part of God's plan of Salvation, rejected and forgotten by this world's religious system.



The only "change" according to the Words of God who created the promise of the New covenant in the first place, is the manner in which God's Laws are received, and the manner in which transgression of God's Laws are forgiven. You can read it for yourself. There is nothing in the entire Law and Prophets where God's Laws are prophesied to be abolished at the appearance of the Messiah. NOT ONE WORD. Only the Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins were to change. As it is written:

1 Sam. 15: 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Samuel-15-24/
But there are dozens of warnings about men who "speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD", who "say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you", "profess to know God but are disobedient", who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord, but live in iniquity" who "Come in Christ's Name" to deceive, who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ.

So because there is no new thing under the sun, and God's Doesn't change, there is no "change in the nature of the relationship between God and humanity". The goal, the end result of living Faith, is a New Man "Which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Like Abraham, and Caleb, and Daniel, and Zacharias, and Simeon and Paul.

This world's religious system that you have adopted teaches otherwise, I know this, the Holy Scriptures warn of this.

I simply advocate that a man listen to "Every Word" of God, and not the religious sects and businesses of this world that you are promoting.



This is your philosophy, not Jesus'.

John 6: 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So for sure the Prophesied Ministry "after the Order of Melchizedek" is a better covenant, based on better promises. And Jesus did Fulfill the Law concerning the change in the Priesthood. But there are many important events that have Yet to be fulfilled. Like the return of the Lord's Christ, which if HE doesn't return, our faith is in vain. So to preach that "ALL" has been fulfilled that is written in scriptures about God's Salvation, is an insidious falsehood designed to deceive. And since "ALL" has clearly not been fulfilled, and there are Feasts of the Lord that still point to events, "Yet to be fulfilled", or as it is written, "Shadows of things yet to come", then according to the Jesus "of the bible" own Words, the man you call Lord, Lord, "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law".

I simply advocate that men "turn to God" as both Paul and Jesus instruct and turn away from this world's religious system with it's hundreds of different religious businesses and philosophies, and traditions, and their own high days, and their own judgments, and their own image of God in the likeness of man. Yes, they are seductive, and yes, they are the broad path. I just think we should trust in the Words of the Jesus "of the bible" enough bto become doers of His Words, and no hearers only.

 

[Johann]

Can you not see that according to what is actually written in scriptures, God's Law is intended to bring Abraham closer to HIM, Caleb closer to Him, Zacharias closer to Him, and here we can see His Law also was intended to bring Paul closer to Him.

WHAT law/nomos/entole are you referring to?

This is foolishness my friend. Davids, Shadrack's, Calebs sin was forgiven. God isn't going to raise them again and have them offer the Blood of Jesus for their sins. Their place in God's Kingdom is permanent. They have been reconciled to God, and their atonement provided for. Where is the Scripture that teaches Caleb, David, Jeremiah, Meshak and others only received "Temporary reconciliation"? Or that their atonement was only temporary and insufficient?

You are using Paul's Words to justify sin. Paul's message here was not for men to stop obeying God.

Where do I use Paul's words to justify sin?

"In the Old (Levitical) Priesthood, when a man sinned, what did the LAW, given by God to Moses, require this man to do?"

In the Old (Levitical) Priesthood, when a man sinned, the Law given by God to Moses required him to bring a sacrificial offering to the priest, who would make atonement for him through the prescribed rituals. The type of sacrifice depended on the nature of the sin, the social status of the individual, and whether the sin was intentional or unintentional.

1. The Requirement for Sin Offerings (Leviticus 4-5)

Leviticus 4:27-28 – If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally... he shall bring as his offering a female goat without blemish for his sin which he has committed.

Leviticus 4:32 – And if he brings a lamb as his sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish.

Leviticus 5:7 – If he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed two turtledoves or two pigeons.

2. The Role of the Priest in Atonement

Leviticus 4:35 – And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
The priest would slaughter the animal, sprinkle its blood, and burn portions on the altar as a substitutionary sacrifice to cover sin.

3. The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) for National Sin (Leviticus 16)
Once a year, the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies to make atonement for all Israel.

Two goats were selected- one was sacrificed for sin, and the other (the scapegoat) was sent into the wilderness bearing the nation’s sins. (Leviticus 16:10)

4. Intentional vs. Unintentional Sins
Numbers 15:27-28 – If one person sins unintentionally, he shall offer a female goat a year old for a sin offering... the priest shall make atonement for the person who makes a mistake when he sins unintentionally before the LORD.
Numbers 15:30-31 – But the person who does anything with a high hand (presumptuously)... that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Deliberate sins (rebellion) had no sacrificial provision-only repentance and God’s mercy could restore the individual.

5. Temporary Nature of the Sacrifices
Hebrews 10:4 – For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Why don't you understand this @Studyman?

Hebrews 9:22 – Without shedding of blood, there is no remission.
Blood was necessary, prefiguring Christ’s ultimate sacrifice.

6. Fulfillment in Christ
John 1:29 – Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 9:12 – Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Under the Old Covenant, sin required sacrifice, priestly mediation, and repentance, but these were shadows of the true and final sacrifice in Jesus Christ, the perfect High Priest.

"When Jesus ran the money changers out of the Temple, what were they selling, and what was their purpose?

Matthew 21:12 – And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.

John 2:14 – And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
The oxen, sheep, and doves were the animals required for Temple sacrifices (Leviticus 1:3, 10; 5:7; 12:6).
Many Jews traveled long distances to Jerusalem and preferred to buy animals there instead of bringing their own.

2. The Money Changers and the Temple Tax
Exodus 30:13-16 – Each Israelite male 20 years and older was required to pay a half-shekel as a Temple tax.

Matthew 17:24 – Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?

Roman and Greek currency (which bore images of pagan rulers or gods) was not accepted in the Temple.
Money changers exchanged foreign coins for the Tyrian shekel, the only currency accepted for the Temple tax.
These money changers were known for charging exorbitant exchange fees, exploiting worshipers.

Matthew 21:13 – It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of robbers.’ (quoting Isaiah 56:7 and Jeremiah 7:11)

John 2:16 – Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business!
Jesus condemned them for corrupting worship by turning the Temple into a marketplace.
They exploited worshipers who came to offer sacrifices, making access to God a matter of financial gain instead of devotion.

4. The Larger Theological Meaning
Jesus’ actions foreshadowed the end of the Levitical system, as He Himself would become the true and final sacrifice (Hebrews 9:11-12).
This event also prefigured the coming destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., as God’s presence would no longer be confined to a physical structure but dwell in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

This is foolishness my friend. Davids, Shadrack's, Calebs sin was forgiven. God isn't going to raise them again and have them offer the Blood of Jesus for their sins. Their place in God's Kingdom is permanent. They have been reconciled to God, and their atonement provided for. Where is the Scripture that teaches Caleb, David, Jeremiah, Meshak and others only received "Temporary reconciliation"? Or that their atonement was only temporary and insufficient?

@Studyman -No One Was Waiting to Be "Re-Saved" by Christ

Caleb, David, Meshach, and others were already reconciled.

Christ did not need to offer His blood for them again-His atonement was the final confirmation of what they already had.

Job 19:25 (LXX 19:25) – Ἐγὼ γὰρ οἶδα ὅτι ἀόνιός μου ἐστιν ὁ ῥυόμενός με καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς ἐγερεῖ μου τὸ δέρμα
"For I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the last day He will stand upon the earth."

You are all over with your selective verse quotations.

Can we start this over again? This time slowly? And do study the Hebrew word for atonement and it's etymology-as well as reconciliation.

Besides, I am tired at the moment.

J.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:18 NKJ)

SOUNT IT OUT to the last breath my friend . TO THE last breath utters out of those lungs .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

No, you stand against everything the Cross stands for.

The world would not find your redefined Cross foolishness or offensive, and neither do you.

That's how you can know you have removed its message.

Sound it out to the last breath my friend , to the last breath .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Via Christ

THAT MY FRIEND is what many do not realize . but paul and others knew this .
When we go way way back and listen to the words of even the prophets
and even father and father back , The TRUTH is seen by those who are and have been born of GOD .
And that truth is very very simple .
its why even paul wrote and that SPIRIT of CHRIST that was in them did signify
GOD IS HIS WORD HE IS HIS SPIRIT and all WHO DENY JESUS IS THE CHRIST HAVE DENIED GOD ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF .
THERE IS NO convenant given BY GOD that one can deny and not perish .
SO the question is
IF a man fails to Beleive GOD
HIS promise , HIS covenant
And takes off to not HEED GOD ALL MIGHTY , it wont BODE WELL at all .
And now a word to all and may all that has breath hear it . IF ONE DENIES JESUS THE CHRIST THEY HAVE DENIED GOD .
And that is NOT A GOOD END .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

No, you stand against everything the Cross stands for.

The world would not find your redefined Cross foolishness or offensive, and neither do you.

That's how you can know you have removed its message.

Dont heed a word ONE outta that mans lips . MANY now offer unto this world FALSE HOPE . JESUS HAS BEEN DENIED
by any and by all who offer up false hope . Be encouraged my friend
but i dont heed the lips of men WHO DENY JESUS THE CHRIST . WONT DO IT , SHANT DO IT , PEROID .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

a man offering up false hope to the world
by preaching a false love broad path lie
Is as a man who took a long journey to prove to the world
he could jump the grand caynon . And as midnight drew nigh
in the black of night it was heard ol pancho kanvieval cry Up and away we go .............
Then come the morning pancho could not be found .
men searched both sides of the grand canyon . One side holler HE is not here
to the other side .
And peoples wondered , HOW was it mr pancho was gonna jump this grand canyon .
Did he take an air balloon across and jus sail away .
In the days following as many searched
a dead burro was found near the bottom of the Grand caynon .
And just fifty feet ahead lie ol pancho . CANT JUMP THE GRAND CANYON on a donkey my friends .
AND YA CANT GIVE OUT FALSE HOPE either . TIME TO PREACH TO ALL , TO REMIND TO ALL
the absolute dire necessity to BELEIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST , cause all else falls far short as did pancho and the burro .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Which Covenant would you be discussing in your last line?
I used to teach the Covenants and I have no idea...

In NO Covenant does God choose the participants in the manner in which you mean it.

Any and all who reject GOD will remain in death and face the second death .
WHICH MEANS if one rejects JESUS IS THE CHRIST , they gonna perish .
On the sixth day GOD created man and from rib of man formed he woman .
And since the day they ate of the tree DEATH has come upon all .
From even the earliest pages in that bible and to the last , from the law , from the prophets
from before the law and even unto abraham was A PROMISE GIVEN that would save mankind .
And i suggest we all preach that name to all . As i am sure you would agree . cause buddism is of satan
muhammed served the devil and any other religoin serves the same one .
MAN simply cannot deliver himself , save himself from that which he has earned , DEATH .
BUT GOD can , And GOD determined long ago HOW HE would save the world .
And its time we preach THAT NAME and the dire need to Beleive on that There name . JESUS the CHRIST .
But and this is a big ol butt , so big it could cover sunshine itself .
IF OUR jesus contradicts the words of THE JESUS in the bible , THAT ONE CANNOT SAVE , IT IS NOT JESUS
and the second death even awaits all who followed that other jesus too .

 

[Studyman]

I think we can accumulate enough evidence through the joint consideration of these three facts

I made a reasoned argument concerning God's Laws, Statutes, Commandments and Judgments that it is said Abraham obeyed, and the "Way of the Lord" that he commanded his children to keep.

But you didn't acknowledge my reasoning and want to present to me another argument to justify your position on God's Commandments which do not meet with your approval. I am glad to share my thought on this as well. Thanks for sharing.

1. Historical records have no evidence that any other civilization was required by any priest, prophet or sacred text to keep the seventh day as Sabbath. In contrast, we have plenty of evidence of religions and moral systems that prohibited murder or theft.

Yes, Egypt, at the time the children of Israel lived there also had a Moral System. "Laws Of Ma’at". These Laws prohibited murder, theft, lying, adultery, swindling, taking food from children and many more laws that you would call an acceptable Moral System. Shall I then turn away from the God of Abraham, and worship Ramesses III, and adopt their religious philosophy based on the Historical Records?

I'm perfectly happy with God's instruction in righteousness, His burden is light, and I am a better man today, in part, because of the Sabbath Fast from the world that God commands on the 7th day of the week.

1. Second, Jews were never sent as missionaries to call other nations or civilizations to practice circumcision, abstain from pork, keep the sabbath or build tabernacles and priesthood for ritualistic sacrifices as Moses ordered.

Your assertion that Jews never sent missionaries to promote their version of "circumcision" and God's Sabbaths they polluted, and their religious business of selling sacrifices for sin, is simply not representative of the Biblical record.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

1. Jewish theology, up to these days, sustain that the Law of Moses (and corresponding covenant) was not given to Gentiles.

And I have posted God's Own Words that the Jews rejected, in which God tells both you and I and them who His Laws were for. And Paul's and Jesus' Teaching regarding whose Words to live by, and whose words to learn "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

So yes, it is true that the Jews didn't believe what was written in scriptures, and vexed the Gentiles who would "join themselves to the Lord".

1. For Gentiles, general laws of morality are expected. Perhaps the most developed theory around this is the laws of Noah, applicable to all mankind.

Noah understood and abided by God's Laws concerning clean and unclean animals. Again, as I have said before my friend, I believe all that is written in the Holy Scriptures. I am still learning obedience and still growing in the knowledge of God. But I have yielded myself to this God, and HIS definition of Good, clean and Holy.

You mentioned that in your house, with your children, you have the power and responsibly to instruct them, even in what they should eat and not eat, or when to work, and not work. I simply do not understand why men, who profess to know God, reject His Right to instruct His children in the same exact way.

Nevertheless, Your posts make a person think, and I have learned from reading them.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Just want to say that both you and @Johann in post 180, are both correct in your assessment of the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

I often ask what the difference is when discussing WORKS,,,which has become an uninvited word in Christianity.

Never get an answer.

You have both given the answer.
There is really no difference.

The difference is in how it is received and HOW we can become a part of the Covenant...
and HOW we can now obey it's rules and regulations.

And, yes, Christianity has rules and regulations...even though some don't believe so.

I dont give a rip what this pope or anyone else might say about ya , you knows i loves ya . NOW hit the trenches
for we be in the uttermost of the last days this earth will ever see ................

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Nevertheless we look foward to the new heavens and the new earth . HOME WARD BOUND .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Just want to say that both you and @Johann in post 180, are both correct in your assessment of the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

I often ask what the difference is when discussing WORKS,,,which has become an uninvited word in Christianity.

Never get an answer.

You have both given the answer.
There is really no difference.

The difference is in how it is received and HOW we can become a part of the Covenant...
and HOW we can now obey it's rules and regulations.

And, yes, Christianity has rules and regulations...even though some don't believe so.

GOD has always desired obediance . and now in CHRIST we have the SPIRIT which workes in us that which is well pleasing in HIS sight .
Disobediance , rebellion and sin , AINT pleasing to HIM . A new covenant has come to town
one in which the law is writ upon the hearts of the sheep . The very things pleasing to GOD
are now pleasing to US . the evil deeds he hates , we now hate . A NEW HEART INDEED .

 

[GodsGrace]

GOD has always desired obediance . and now in CHRIST we have the SPIRIT which workes in us that which is well pleasing in HIS sight .
Disobediance , rebellion and sin , AINT pleasing to HIM . A new covenant has come to town
one in which the law is writ upon the hearts of the sheep . The very things pleasing to GOD
are now pleasing to US . the evil deeds he hates , we now hate . A NEW HEART INDEED .

Amen !
The difference between the Mosaic (Old) Covenant and the New Covenant is:
THE HOLY SPIRIT!

God still requires that we obey Him..
GOD DID NOT CHANGE.

But now...we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who is our helper.
So it's HOW we can obey that has changed.

 

[GodsGrace]

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY


PS
You win the prize for the correct answer after almost 10 years of asking the difference between the two!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes, Egypt, at the time the children of Israel lived there also had a Moral System. "Laws Of Ma’at". These Laws prohibited murder, theft, lying, adultery, swindling, taking food from children and many more laws that you would call an acceptable Moral System. Shall I then turn away from the God of Abraham, and worship Ramesses III, and adopt their religious philosophy based on the Historical Records?

If you were an ancient Egyptian, God would not have expected you to follow the Hebrews to the desert and accept the covenant made through Moses. That’s why we see no attempt from Moses to convert the Egyptians to the God of Israel.
If you were an ancient Egyptian, God would have expected you to keep the moral laws you are referring to, be kind with the Hebrews and help them to leave as free people. That’s it.

If you were an ancient Chaldean or Sumerian, God would have expected you to abide by the well developed moral system they had. Abraham was not called by God to convert the Sumerians, was he? He was called to leave his place and culture so that a new nation could be founded.

Finally, if you had been a Ninevite, you would not have been asked by Jonah to convert to Judaism, and abide by the covenant given through Moses. As a Ninevite you would have known perfectly well that violence was violence, fraud was fraud, and that’s why Jonah’s call to repent would have made sense for you.

I'm perfectly happy with God's instruction in righteousness, His burden is light, and I am a better man today, in part, because of the Sabbath Fast from the world that God commands on the 7th day of the week.

This is wonderful and I fully appreciate what you say.

Your assertion that Jews never sent missionaries to promote their version of "circumcision" and God's Sabbaths they polluted, and their religious business of selling sacrifices for sin, is simply not representative of the Biblical record.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

The “proselytes” mentioned here are Israelites who joined their sect. The Pharisees did not embark in a missionary work with other nations. On the contrary, they avoided to pollute themselves with too much contact with Gentiles.
The feeling that Jews should not preach sacred things to Gentiles is represented by the story of Peter and Cornelius.

And I have posted God's Own Words that the Jews rejected, in which God tells both you and I and them who His Laws were for. And Paul's and Jesus' Teaching regarding whose Words to live by, and whose words to learn "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

Paul himself never thought that the terms of the covenant God had made through Moses included the Gentiles.

So yes, it is true that the Jews didn't believe what was written in scriptures, and vexed the Gentiles who would "join themselves to the Lord".

Jesus never reproached the Jews for not having sent missionaries to the Greeks or Arabs, did He?
… and not only Jesus, but all prophets from Israel before Him. So, if Jews were disobeying an instruction to bring Moses Law to all mankind, it seems that God hadn’t cared at all.
In contrast, the story of the Wise Men from Persia who were guided by God to seek Jesus tell us that Jews believed that God could guide people from other religions in God’s own terms, outside the covenant made through Moses.

Nevertheless, Your posts make a person think, and I have learned from reading them.
Thanks for the discussion.

I also appreciate to read your points of view, Studyman. Thanksa lot. God bless you.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you were an ancient Egyptian, God would not have expected you to follow the Hebrews to the desert and accept the covenant made through Moses. That’s why we see no attempt from Moses to convert the Egyptians to the God of Israel.
If you were an ancient Egyptian, God would have expected you to keep the moral laws you are referring to, be kind with the Hebrews and help them to leave as free people. That’s it.

If you were an ancient Chaldean or Sumerian, God would have expected you to abide by the well developed moral system they had. Abraham was not called by God to convert the Sumerians, was he? He was called to leave his place and culture so that a new nation could be founded.

Finally, if you had been a Ninevite, you would not have been asked by Jonah to convert to Judaism, and abide by the covenant given through Moses. As a Ninevite you would have known perfectly well that violence was violence, fraud was fraud, and that’s why Jonah’s call to repent would have made sense for you.

This is wonderful and I fully appreciate what you say.

The “proselytes” mentioned here are Israelites who joined their sect. The Pharisees did not embark in a missionary work with other nations. On the contrary, they avoided to pollute themselves with too much contact with Gentiles.
The feeling that Jews should not preach sacred things to Gentiles is represented by the story of Peter and Cornelius.

Paul himself never thought that the terms of the covenant God had made through Moses included the Gentiles.

@Studyman
Also for Studyman,,,if you're interested.

The Mosaic Covenant was for ONLY the Israelites.
It was bilateral.
It was conditional.
The sign was: The Sabbath

The New Covenant was for everyone - world-wide
it is unilateral.
It is unconditional.
The sign is: Baptism (some theologians believe it is the Eurcharist)
The seal: The sacrifice of Jesus/shedding of blood

Each covenant either added to or changed somewhat the previous Covenant.
NO Covenant is ever abolished.
Hebrews states differently,,,,but if you go through the Covenants, as theologians have, you'll find this to be correct.

So....
Actually, in practice, the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant both require from us
something that God demands from us and that has never changed:
OBEDIENCE

With both Covenants we are required to obey God and live a life pleasing to Him.

So what's the difference? I've asked this question many times and never have received an answer...
till yesterday by a member on this forum.

The difference is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was present even in the OT......
But
Jesus said it was good that He go away so the Holy Spirit could come to us.
And the Holy Spirit NOW abides with us....we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

So

The difference is that with the NC,,,,we are now ABLE to better obey God and to follow Him
in our daily life.

Jesus never reproached the Jews for not having sent missionaries to the Greeks or Arabs, did He?
… and not only Jesus, but all prophets from Israel before Him. So, if Jews were disobeying an instruction to bring Moses Law to all mankind, it seems that God hadn’t cared at all.
In contrast, the story of the Wise Men from Persia who were guided by God to seek Jesus tell us that Jews believed that God could guide people from other religions in God’s own terms, outside the covenant made through Moses.

I also appreciate to read your points of view, Studyman. Thanksa lot. God bless you.

 

[Marvelloustime]

GOD has always desired obediance . and now in CHRIST we have the SPIRIT which workes in us that which is well pleasing in HIS sight .
Disobediance , rebellion and sin , AINT pleasing to HIM . A new covenant has come to town
one in which the law is writ upon the hearts of the sheep . The very things pleasing to GOD
are now pleasing to US . the evil deeds he hates , we now hate . A NEW HEART INDEED .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[Marvelloustime]

Nevertheless we look foward to the new heavens and the new earth . HOME WARD BOUND .

 

[Studyman]

Just want to say that both you and @Johann in post 180, are both correct in your assessment of the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

I often ask what the difference is when discussing WORKS,,,which has become an uninvited word in Christianity.

Never get an answer.

You have both given the answer.
There is really no difference.

The difference is in how it is received and HOW we can become a part of the Covenant...
and HOW we can now obey it's rules and regulations.

And, yes, Christianity has rules and regulations...even though some don't believe so.

Yes, Christianity has their own rules and judgments, their own sabbaths, their own high days, their own image of God in the likeness of man etc. And they have rejected much of God's Judgments, God's sabbaths and the Feasts of the Lord.

Does it matter? Perhaps not, but it is true.

According to the Jesus of the Bible, man is to "Live By" all of God's Word, not mans. According to Peter we are to obey God, rather than man. According to Paul, man is supposed to "Yield himself" to God, not the popular religious philosophies or traditions of this world God placed us in.

I would say that according to what is written in scriptures, this is how and has always been how men learn obedience to God. It's how Abraham obeyed, and Caleb obeyed, and Zacharias obeyed. They "Yielded themselves" to God. The difference between the prophesied new covenant and the old, was the manner in which God's Laws are received. As Hebrews teaches, we no longer receive the Law under the Levitical Priesthood, who had exclusive access to the Law and Prophets. We now have the Oracles of God in our own homes, in our own mind, we just need to believe all that is written. And we no longer engage in the sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins that Johann revealed in the answer to my question to him. We have an incorruptible Priest, who offered for our sins to Hos Father, to provide for us the remission of sins, and is become our advocate between God and us, "Because", as it is written, "Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And we have the promises of the Christ.

John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray "the Father", "and he shall give you another Comforter", that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (The Father) not, neither knoweth him: (The Father) but ye know him; (The Father) for he (The Father) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

And Peter confirms this.

Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, "whom God (The Father) hath given" "to them" that obey him. (The Father)

And the Scriptures reveal to us that this has been God's way from the very beginning.

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, (That God gives to those who obey Him) and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he (The Father) spake by the mouth of his (The Father's) holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

And again;

Luke 2: 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (That God gives to those who obey Him) 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

I could keep going but my posts get too long.

In conclusion, we are told by Paul and Jesus to "Repent of our sins" and turn to God in Faithful obedience, "with all our heart, mind and soul", like Paul in Rom. 7: 25, as He and His Son instructs. This is called "Walking in the Spirit" and God is Faithful to bring us to "His" Perfection, even as Jesus also "Yielded Himself" to God in obedience from His Youth, unto death and was also "made perfect", as it is written. And with Jesus' Commandment, for those who would be faithful "doers" of His Saying, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect", we have been shown the narrow path to God's salvation, and are instructed to strive to walk this path.

Therefore, as it is written in the Prophets inspired by the Spirit which was in Christ Jesus,

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.