The context of the Eucharist from Passover Seder : sacrifice, real presence, priest, unblemished lamb

[TomL]

The priest does nothing, Christ acts through him.
It is the real body and blood, not spiritual.

Are you claiming the bread and the wine are actually physically changed to Christ's body and blood

That if examined scientifically it would be revealed as such?

The Eucharist* (or Mass)—the single most important of the RomanCatholic sacraments—involves a resacrificing of Jesus (or, more accurately,a “re-presenting” or “renewing” of the sacrifice of Jesus) over and overagain. We are told that the Mass constitutes a “true and proper sacrifice.”10Karl Keating writes, “The Church insists that the Mass is the continuationand re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary.”11 The CatholicEncyclopedia asserts, “We may establish that the Eucharist is a truesacrifice.”12 Whether you call it “resacrifice” or “re-presenting” thesacrifice, Roman Catholics say that in every single Mass, God is appeased.As defined by the Council of Trent, the same Christ who offered himselfin a bloody manner on the cross is during the Mass (or Eucharist) presentand offered in an unbloody manner. Consequently, the Mass is viewed as a truly propitiatory sacrifice by which the Lord is appeased.13

11. Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on“Romanism” by “Bible Christians” (San Francisco: Ignatius Press,1988), p. 248.
12. Robert Broderick, The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia (Saint Paul, MN:Simon and Schuster, 1956), pp. 375-76.
13. Hardon, Pocket Catholic Dictionary, p. 248.

Pivotal to a proper understanding of the Mass is the Catholic teachingthat the bread and wine miraculously turn into the actual body and blood ofJesus Christ. This happens at the prayer of consecration said by the priest.Even though the bread and wine still look and feel and taste like bread andwine, in fact, there is a change such that it turns into Jesus Christ in His fulldeity and humanity. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it, “Inthe most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist ‘the body and blood, togetherwith the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the wholeChrist is truly, really, and substantially contained.’”14 Vatican II proclaimedthat “in the sacrament of the Eucharist Christ is present, in a manneraltogether unique, God and man, whole and entire, substantially andcontinuously.”15

14. Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 383.
15. Second Vatican Council, “Sacred Liturgy,” “On Holy Communion andthe Worship of the Eucharist Mystery Outside of Mass,” no. 6.

Page 355

‘- The Mass is the unbloody re-enactment of the sacrifice of Calvary. Through the consecration of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, the Mass perpetuates the sacrifice of the Cross by offering to God the same Victim that was immolated on Calvary for the redemption of man. In the Mass the priest speaks not in his own name, but as the ambassador of Jesus Christ, speaking the very words which Christ uttered at the Last Supper. Thus Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the Victim in the sacrifice of the Mass and in the sacrifice of the Cross, and the ends for which both sacrifices were offered are identical
The faith of millions – John O’brien

 

[Quintus5]

And the problem is that Jesus is sacrificed over and over millions of times, like the first sacrifice wasn't good enough. He was sacrificed once, as the Bible and you have pointed out. He is a victim, I think that is what they call Him. He is always portrayed as being crucified, or dead and laying on Mary's lap, or a baby--never as having victory over death. He is not on a cross, not a victim, not a baby--He is a Redeemer!!!!He lives!!!

 

[TomL]

And the problem is that Jesus is sacrificed over and over millions of times, like the first sacrifice wasn't good enough. He was sacrificed once, as the Bible and you have pointed out. He is a victim, I think that is what they call Him. He is always portrayed as being crucified, or dead and laying on Mary's lap, or a baby--never as having victory over death. He is not on a cross, not a victim, not a baby--He is a Redeemer!!!!He lives!!!

View attachment 910

Amen. A continued sacrifice denies the efficiency of the one sacrifice and denigrates what Christ has accomplished

 

[mikepec]

Are you claiming the bread and the wine are actually physically changed to Christ's body and blood

That if examined scientifically it would be revealed as such?

The Eucharist* (or Mass)—the single most important of the RomanCatholic sacraments—involves a resacrificing of Jesus (or, more accurately,a “re-presenting” or “renewing” of the sacrifice of Jesus) over and overagain. We are told that the Mass constitutes a “true and proper sacrifice.”10Karl Keating writes, “The Church insists that the Mass is the continuationand re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary.”11 The CatholicEncyclopedia asserts, “We may establish that the Eucharist is a truesacrifice.”12 Whether you call it “resacrifice” or “re-presenting” thesacrifice, Roman Catholics say that in every single Mass, God is appeased.As defined by the Council of Trent, the same Christ who offered himselfin a bloody manner on the cross is during the Mass (or Eucharist) presentand offered in an unbloody manner. Consequently, the Mass is viewed as a truly propitiatory sacrifice by which the Lord is appeased.13

11. Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on“Romanism” by “Bible Christians” (San Francisco: Ignatius Press,1988), p. 248.
12. Robert Broderick, The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia (Saint Paul, MN:Simon and Schuster, 1956), pp. 375-76.
13. Hardon, Pocket Catholic Dictionary, p. 248.

Pivotal to a proper understanding of the Mass is the Catholic teachingthat the bread and wine miraculously turn into the actual body and blood ofJesus Christ. This happens at the prayer of consecration said by the priest.Even though the bread and wine still look and feel and taste like bread andwine, in fact, there is a change such that it turns into Jesus Christ in His fulldeity and humanity. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it, “Inthe most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist ‘the body and blood, togetherwith the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the wholeChrist is truly, really, and substantially contained.’”14 Vatican II proclaimedthat “in the sacrament of the Eucharist Christ is present, in a manneraltogether unique, God and man, whole and entire, substantially andcontinuously.”15

14. Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 383.
15. Second Vatican Council, “Sacred Liturgy,” “On Holy Communion andthe Worship of the Eucharist Mystery Outside of Mass,” no. 6.

Page 355

‘- The Mass is the unbloody re-enactment of the sacrifice of Calvary. Through the consecration of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, the Mass perpetuates the sacrifice of the Cross by offering to God the same Victim that was immolated on Calvary for the redemption of man. In the Mass the priest speaks not in his own name, but as the ambassador of Jesus Christ, speaking the very words which Christ uttered at the Last Supper. Thus Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the Victim in the sacrifice of the Mass and in the sacrifice of the Cross, and the ends for which both sacrifices were offered are identical
The faith of millions – John O’brien

Where have you been?

In the Eucharistic miracles it has been shown as human heart tissue

And it isn’t me saying it.
It is Jesus and the apostolic church since the beginning.

Only the apostates and heretics since the reformation claimed it wasn’t so and have handed you a myth.
It doesn’t matter what you think, or what you wrongly think scripture means.
The apostolic succession handed down truth, because Jesus decided it.

 

[TomL]

Where have you been?

In the Eucharistic miracles it has been shown as human heart tissue

Where is the proof of that?

 

[mikepec]

Where is the proof of that?

Read such as Serafinis book. “ cardiologist examines Jesus”
Many books to choose

 

[TomL]

Read such as Serafinis book. “ cardiologist examines Jesus”
Many books to choose

When it contradicts the word of God I do not believe

Acts 3:20–21 (UASV) — 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.

 

[mikepec]

When it contradicts the word of God I do not believe

Acts 3:20–21 (UASV) — 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.

You mean contradicts YOUR PERSONAL opinion of the meaning , where you clearly disagree with Jesus church and all the succession

So it’s your opinion that is wrong. But then you are not “ sent” in the meaning of scripture and scripture tells you not to “ lean on your own under standing ” but listen to those who APPOINTED hand down the truth

The science is clear and you are WRONG!

 

[TomL]

You mean contradicts YOUR PERSONAL opinion of the meaning , where you clearly disagree with Jesus church and all the succession

So it’s your opinion that is wrong. But then you are not “ sent” in the meaning of scripture and scripture tells you not to “ lean on your own under standing ” but listen to those who APPOINTED hand down the truth

The science is clear and you are WRONG!

No I mean what it states

Christ remains in the heavens until the restoration of all things

All things have not been restored, so Jesus must still be in heaven

Not simultaneously or constantly be offered up in wafers in church after church in country after country

 

[mikepec]

No I mean what it states

Christ remains in the heavens until the restoration of all things

All things have not been restored, so Jesus must still be in heaven

Not simultaneously or constantly be offered up in wafers in church after church in country after country

That’s the problem with Protestabts.
They do not know scripture or the meaning Jesus intended.
So you cherrypick verses that you can distort to support your assumption.

Jesus aLso said “ wherever two or more are gathered together there I am”
Which completely contradicts your personal interpretation of staying in heaven,

Go back to what Jesus meant, that he explained to John, that John taught his disciples. The TRUE meaning of John 6.
That you see they handed down ( the meaning of tradition) to which tradition ( Paul says “ stay true”
And that is the real flesh of the Eucharist. As taught by ignatius etc. who WERE sent.

Heaven meets earth in the mass
. Your concepts of time and space are wrong!!

 

[TomL]

That’s the problem with Protestabts.
They do not know scripture or the meaning Jesus intended.
So you cherrypick verses that you can distort to support your assumption.

Jesus aLso said “ wherever two or more are gathered together there I am”
Which completely contradicts your personal interpretation of staying in heaven,

Go back to what Jesus meant, that he explained to John, that John taught his disciples. The TRUE meaning of John 6.
That you see they handed down ( the meaning of tradition) to which tradition ( Paul says “ stay true”
And that is the real flesh of the Eucharist. As taught by ignatius etc. who WERE sent.

Heaven meets earth in the mass
. Your concepts of time and space are wrong!!

Um you are assuming he is there physically in their midst

Nowhere is the bible do we read about the real flesh of the Eucharist

And if your claims about it had any truth each and every eucharist host would contain his flesh

and could be so verified.

Do you want to make that claim?

 

[mikepec]

Um you are assuming he is there physically in their midst

Nowhere is the bible do we read about the real flesh of the Eucharist

And if your claims about it had any truth each and every eucharist host would contain his flesh

and could be so verified.

Do you want to make that claim?

You mean Nowhere in your opinion of scripture which matters to nobody.

What mattered is what Jesus taught John, who taught polycarp , ignatius and handed down by succession through bishops sent.
That is real flesh of the Eucharist. Since what it is and how it appears are two different things, you have such arrogance in tell8mg our Lord where and when he must show you what it is,

Only apostates and heretics like you changed that at the reformation.

 

[TomL]

You mean Nowhere in your opinion of scripture which matters to nobody.

What mattered is what Jesus taught John, who taught polycarp , ignatius and handed down by succession through bishops sent.
That is real flesh of the Eucharist. Since what it is and how it appears are two different things, you have such arrogance in tell8mg our Lord where and when he must show you what it is,

Only apostates and heretics like you changed that at the reformation.

It's very simple

Just present scripture which states it, but you can't can you?

 

[mikepec]

It's very simple

Just present scripture which states it, but you can't can you?

The arrogance of Protestants to believe they know more about scripture than others! No wonder they are unteachable and all have a designer religion based on their own mis understandings . It isn’t Christianity as Jesus taught them.


Meanhwile I know all those scriptures , I also know what Jesus meant by what he taught his disciples .

You are arrogant enough to believe that John did not know what John 6 meant !!

Streuth. No wonder Protestantism is such a mess. It’s why I left

 

[TomL]

The arrogance of Protestants to believe they know more about scripture than others! No wonder they are unteachable and all have a designer religion based on their own mis understandings . It isn’t Christianity as Jesus taught them.


Meanhwile I know all those scriptures , I also know what Jesus meant by what he taught his disciples .

You are arrogant enough to believe that John did not know what John 6 meant !!

Streuth. No wonder Protestantism is such a mess. It’s why I left

You posted no scripture supporting your claim

So who comes off as arrogant here

 

[mikepec]

You posted no scripture supporting your claim

So who comes off as arrogant here

I don’t have to. I named John 6 and I said what John said it meant as recorded by his disciples and the church

And I follow all those sent to teach by Jesus in a succession. Those given power to bind and loose in council.
In fact everyone till such as calvin and luther apostasized.

Arrogance is you believing Jesus did not know what he meant, so needs you to explain it to him, and He was not powerful enough to keep his church on track, so his church went off the tails so he needs you !! To fix it for him.
He doesn’t . Really he doesn’t. He needs you to STUDY the truth of the early church.

Tell me where in the Bible it says it has to be in the Bible?
Jesus said “ do this” not “ write this” so the faith was handed down ( traditon) by the pillar of truth - the church.

 

[TomL]

I don’t have to. I named John 6 and I said what John said it meant as recorded by his disciples and the church

And I follow all those sent to teach by Jesus in a succession. Those given power to bind and loose in council.
In fact everyone till such as calvin and luther apostasized.

Arrogance is you believing Jesus did not know what he meant, so needs you to explain it to him, and He was not powerful enough to keep his church on track, so his church went off the tails so he needs you !! To fix it for him.
He doesn’t . Really he doesn’t. He needs you to STUDY the truth of the early church.

Tell me where in the Bible it says it has to be in the Bible?
Jesus said “ do this” not “ write this” so the faith was handed down ( traditon) by the pillar of truth - the church.

So you cannot support your claim from the bible

You cannot rebut the fact Christ is to remain in the heavens unto the restoration of all things according to scripture

at his Fathers side until all enemies are made his footstool

Add to that Christ offered but one sacrifice which requires no repetition

Hebrews 7:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

As a bloody sacrifice when the Eucharist is stated to be an unbloody sacrifice






Regarding the father the data

 

[mikepec]

So you cannot support your claim from the bible

You cannot rebut the fact Christ is to remain in the heavens unto the restoration of all things according to scripture

at his Fathers side until all enemies are made his footstool

Add to that Christ offered but one sacrifice which requires no repetition

Hebrews 7:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

As a bloody sacrifice when the Eucharist is stated to be an unbloody sacrifice






Regarding the father the data

Things You know nothing about.
1/ scripture
2/ meaning of scripture
3/ what apostles say true doctrine is
4/ what the succession handed down


You worship an idol. Your faulty intellect and put it ahead of God.

“ how can this man give us his flesh to gnaw”
( the word used means gnaw not consume) said the Pharisees in scripture.

Answer in the Eucharist , as is provable from early church writings
As Jesus taught John, John taught his disciples and the true church taught ever since

Tell me what is this faith of yours. Tom intellect worship. Your false God, you put ahead of what Jesus taught.

It is not Christianity, which is clear on real flesh of the Eucharist.

 

[TomL]

Things You know nothing about.
1/ scripture
2/ meaning of scripture
3/ what apostles say true doctrine is
4/ what the succession handed down


You worship an idol. Your faulty intellect and put it ahead of God.

“ how can this man give us his flesh to gnaw”
( the word used means gnaw not consume) said the Pharisees in scripture.

Answer in the Eucharist , as is provable from early church writings
As Jesus taught John, John taught his disciples and the true church taught ever since

Tell me what is this faith of yours. Tom intellect worship. Your false God, you put ahead of what Jesus taught.

It is not Christianity, which is clear on real flesh of the Eucharist.

You make me laugh

I appealed to scripture below

You cannot rebut the fact Christ is to remain in the heavens unto the restoration of all things according to scripture

at his Fathers side until all enemies are made his footstool

Add to that Christ offered but one sacrifice which requires no repetition

Hebrews 7:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

You addressed none of it

I also noted the Eucharist is stated to be an unbloody sacrifice, while Christ's sacrifice was bloody

You did not address that either.

All you did is attack me while having previously talked about arrogance

 

[mikepec]

You make me laugh

I appealed to scripture below



You addressed none of it

I also noted the Eucharist is stated to be an unbloody sacrifice, while Christ's sacrifice was bloody

You did not address that either.

All you did is attack me while having previously talked about arrogance

There is nothing funny about your false God of intellect worship at variance to Christian teaching,

I notice you avoided mentioning the scripture I quoted John 6:52 “ how can this man give us his flesh to gnaw”
And what Jesus, John, his disciples, the early church says it means.

All except you and fellow intellect worshippers and know it alls, like calvin in fact,

Because only toms false intellect matters.
STOP MISLEADING OTHERS
You are entitled to be a heretic, your choice, don’t drag others down with you.