Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[civic]

Let me know how it goes.

I will as I’m getting a cup of coffee then heading out to the course.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I have been there back thirty five years ago, plus. Very close to Mount Vernon, George Washington's home. Probably about five hour or less from your home, thinking, maybe a little more because of traffic that we do not have a problem with in S.C. very much, a little, but, not much.

Well. I wont be there at all. After doing all the leg work to plan a trip I was paying for everything, my cousin does not want to be so far from home and not for a week.......

Although I might just drive myself there and ride it to FL and then return trip for a 2 night escape for myself..... NO

 

[Keiw1]

Actually he loves you more then he would ever love me. I would explain that but not at the risk of starting another argument.


Exactly what @Keiw1 has for months, possible years been all over the fact that no Catholic Bible can be trusted and No Protestant Bible can be trusted because they all come down to having been translated from the RCC Latin texts therefore they cannot be trusted.

I suppose a question could be asked of why the translation into Latin? I assume it had something to do with the centuries the RCC held Mass in Latin?




I stopped altogether from basically mentioning the Peshitta because it can be faulty at best. I have 2 Aramaic translations into English. They differ. The only other that I go to once in a while are Ethiopian Orthodox Church Bible... the limited amounts that I can find and only because of the Book of Enoch.

If they find Enoch viable (A interesting read for those who have not) then I have wanted to compare their bible with
more mainstay ones.


I cannot do my own translation. I am not smart enough and therefore I need someone who does it. Looking up one word or a phrase at a time does not cover much.


You mean "The Greek word "πλάσσω" that means to form, mold, or shape, often used in contexts like pottery or creation.


And is why I compare translations myself... and question what I know seems off such as @Keiw1's "a" god.


It is not that what I see I do not understand between the two. But I tend to follow the scriptures I am used to ( hardly ever of KJV and never of NIV)and I will not
try to change a meaning of such when they said formed, from God's words... then say formed, from Jeramiah's words...
which is not at all unlike Gen 2

7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

I see formed as the making process, I see shape or to shape, or shapened, or shapening or shaping to be the refining of that which was made. Not the making process but the making into process.

I am a reformed quasi-Calvinist.

I do believe in free will. It has been demonstrated through out the bible.... it has been demonstrated throughout my life.

But I will not be so bold as to say I am chosen... IN fact, I have had many doubts about my eternity over my near 8 decades of life.

You see things differently.

If the following from Jer 1:5 is a lie..... look who said it

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”


Not only am I not needed... I AM NOT WANTED.


He likely will rejoice.


True confession. I have been denied love. I never had it or experienced it.


You will note that the term is predestined. Has nothing to do with preordaining.

I would not be so bold as to try and interpret what YHWH meant when He said

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; WHEN WOULD THIS BE?

Before you were born I sanctified you; WHEN WOULD THIS BE?

I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” WAS THIS AFTER BIRTH?
AND WHAT ABOUT Psalm 139:16
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.


I am not going to put up with being bashed any more. God evidentially appointed you my judge.

I stand guilty, as charged.

I will finish one question I am sure you wonder about.

Why did I join this board..... or any of the others I have joined?

I was seeking an answer to what happens if one really missed out in the end. Will they burn for eternity or will they simply cease to be. In case I am one of them

You are wrong about Jeremiah, and you are wrong about so much else .... but I will not respond to you again for it
obviously upsets you.... Go fight with someone else. I am done.

Latin because no one could read it for themself. Once they could read( in another language), they ran.

 

[TomL]

really it's just that some souls
the 144k were in eden.

that's the first group to go home
and the elect. they will be restored
and bring out most of left behind jacob

no mystical babble concept.

No pre-existence before earthly conception

 

[e v e]

No pre-existence before earthly conception

once you understand that eden was not on this earth

it will then make sense to you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No pre-existence before earthly conception

We "go at it" from time to time but if you're settled on what you believe, then I'm just going to drop our argument at this point.

I've been changing my priorities lately. I'm going to focus more in a few areas and less on others.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Actually he loves you more then he would ever love me. I would explain that but not at the risk of starting another argument.

I don't mind arguments but we are so far apart that you would have to accept dozens of things to be true before you will ever accept what I have to say. I've already said enough to last some time.

Exactly what @Keiw1 has for months, possible years been all over the fact that no Catholic Bible can be trusted and No Protestant Bible can be trusted because they all come down to having been translated from the RCC Latin texts therefore they cannot be trusted.

I'm nothing like him/her. You can trust whatever you want. My study has taught me to question everything. When you question everything, you're open to God speaking to you. Otherwise, you're just listening to others. This is why I'm so different. I don't fit with most anyone completely on most anything. I know the details. I use what I know.

I suppose a question could be asked of why the translation into Latin? I assume it had something to do with the centuries the RCC held Mass in Latin?

I'm going to answer this and give you some direction that will take you many years of study to know yourself.

The Greek OT "ruled" among the early church. It was natural that it did. The early church needed a translation of the Torah and the Prophets along with the historical narratives of the history of the children of Jacob. They had it in the LXX or the Greek OT. As non Hebrew speaking peoples came to Christ, naturally they would want to "search the Scriptures". They couldn't search Hebrew manuscripts because they only existed among a few people at the time. There were far too few manuscripts to study. Think of the time Ezra read the scrolls he had from around 458–398 BCE. This gets us into early Paleo Hebrew script. What Ezra found held the attention of the people. They wanted to know what the Scriptures said not just what they had been told was said.

Notice their reaction.... (I'll let you read the narrative). It changed Israel profoundly.

Fast forward to the time of Christ. The descendants of these people fell dramatically away from God. So much so, that they didn't continue the very script of what they heard read to them by Ezra and the priests. They stopped writing in the same script during this falling away. No one has ever found any of the ancient writings of the Torah in the Hebrew of Moses. They don't exist. Even though papyrus can last for thousands of years. They had papyrus in Egypt. We have extant papyrus from 1809-1743 BCE (Brooklyn Papyrus) but no complete Paleo Hebrew script manuscripts from that time.

What does that tell you? At the very least, there weren't many copies.

The early church took off using the Greek OT. That lasted for over 300 years until Jerome came along. He decided the surviving Hebrew texts were better. Add that to his ego and you get the Vulgate.

However, most "scholars" (I use the term loosely) don't really tell the truth about the Vulgate. The Vulgate wasn't accepted by the Catholic church unto the 16th century. Jerome didn't complete the Vulgate. He couldn't. He didn't have the Hebrew manuscripts to do it. He used the Greek OT to complete large portions of the Vulgate. This was entirely hypocritical on Jerome's part. He failed his stated goal to complete the Vulgate from Hebrew sources. Just imagine..... Jerome not having access the Hebrew sources. What does that tell you? They didn't all exist. There were only very few.

So... if you want to know "why Latin"..... then dig into what I just said. I gave you some information. Don't believe me. Do the work to know it.

 

[civic]

I don't mind arguments but we are so far apart that you would have to accept dozens of things to be true before you will ever accept what I have to say. I've already said enough to last some time.



I'm nothing like him/her. You can trust whatever you want. My study has taught me to question everything. When you question everything, you're open to God speaking to you. Otherwise, you're just listening to others. This is why I'm so different. I don't fit with most anyone completely on most anything. I know the details. I use what I know.



I'm going to answer this and give you some direction that will take you many years of study to know yourself.

The Greek OT "ruled" among the early church. It was natural that it did. The early church needed a translation of the Torah and the Prophets along with the historical narratives of the history of the children of Jacob. They had it in the LXX or the Greek OT. As non Hebrew speaking peoples came to Christ, naturally they would want to "search the Scriptures". They couldn't search Hebrew manuscripts because they only existed among a few people at the time. There were far too few manuscripts to study. Think of the time Ezra read the scrolls he had from around 458–398 BCE. This gets us into early Paleo Hebrew script. What Ezra found held the attention of the people. They wanted to know what the Scriptures said not just what they had been told was said.

Notice their reaction.... (I'll let you read the narrative). It changed Israel profoundly.

Fast forward to the time of Christ. The descendants of these people fell dramatically away from God. So much so, that they didn't continue the very script of what they heard read to them by Ezra and the priests. They stopped writing in the same script during this falling away. No one has ever found any of the ancient writings of the Torah in the Hebrew of Moses. They don't exist. Even though papyrus can last for thousands of years. They had papyrus in Egypt. We have extant papyrus from 1809-1743 BCE (Brooklyn Papyrus) but no complete Paleo Hebrew script manuscripts from that time.

What does that tell you? At the very least, there weren't many copies.

The early church took off using the Greek OT. That lasted for over 300 years until Jerome came along. He decided the surviving Hebrew texts were better. Add that to his ego and you get the Vulgate.

However, most "scholars" (I use the term loosely) don't really tell the truth about the Vulgate. The Vulgate wasn't accepted by the Catholic church unto the 16th century. Jerome didn't complete the Vulgate. He couldn't. He didn't have the Hebrew manuscripts to do it. He used the Greek OT to complete large portions of the Vulgate. This was entirely hypocritical on Jerome's part. He failed his stated goal to complete the Vulgate from Hebrew sources. Just imagine..... Jerome not having access the Hebrew sources. What does that tell you? They didn't all exist. There were only very few.

So... if you want to know "why Latin"..... then dig into what I just said. I gave you some information. Don't believe me. Do the work to know it.

History is very important and so is discerning the truth

 

[TomL]

We "go at it" from time to time but if you're settled on what you believe, then I'm just going to drop our argument at this point.

I've been changing my priorities lately. I'm going to focus more in a few areas and less on others.

Ok. As you will

 

[brightfame52]

@FreeInChrist

God knew the name of everyone who would accept the remedy so He knew who would accept. He knew not all would accept. Then there still is free will involved? YES!!!!!

Thats works salvation, "accepting" thats an activity man does. I did a google search " is accepting something a work"

Yes, accepting something can be hard "work" in the sense that it requires significant psychological and emotional effort, practice, and self-compassion to move from resisting reality to a place of peace with it. This kind of acceptance is a process, not a passive act of resignation, but an active choice to acknowledge the present truth of a situation, even if undesirable, to gain clarity and build a foundation for future action or simply to stop fighting an unchangeable reality.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist


Thats works salvation, "accepting" thats an activity man does. I did a google search " is accepting something a work"

Hmmmm. I was not aware you were so against James.

Talk about works.... there is no more work for the kingdom of God, IMO, then to teach and preach and lead those to the truth as
God wants it known

 

[e v e]

Exactly what @Keiw1 has for months, possible years been all over the fact that no Catholic Bible can be trusted and No Protestant Bible can be trusted because they all come down to having been translated from the RCC Latin texts therefore they cannot be trusted.

include kjv and septuagint in that

I cannot do my own translation. I am not smart enough and therefore I need someone who does it.

sure you can and it's the only way to go, as you go. which simply means He be your teacher.

I am a reformed quasi-Calvinist.

I've been meaning to ask any calvinist, did God create a depraved soul? As in T.

I do believe in free will.

I do not... it's an early modern concept.

True confession. I have been denied love. I never had it or experienced it.

maybe soon in eden paradise you will

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; WHEN WOULD THIS BE?

in eden before we ended up on this earth not made by God.

Before you were born I sanctified you; WHEN WOULD THIS BE?

in eden before the fall... said to his 144k.

I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” WAS THIS AFTER BIRTH?

this is a corrupt text as Nations only ever means demon nations.

I stand guilty, as charged.

don't take any bullying. : )

 

[TomL]

@FreeInChrist


Thats works salvation, "accepting" thats an activity man does. I did a google search " is accepting something a work"

You cannot escape the fact

Salvation depends on faith.

Romans 10:9–10 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Galatians 2:16 (LEB) — 16 but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Mark 16:16 (LEB) — 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 1:9 (LEB) — 9 obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

[brightfame52]

Hmmmm. I was not aware you were so against James.

Talk about works.... there is no more work for the kingdom of God, IMO, then to teach and preach and lead those to the truth as
God wants it known View attachment 2292

Im against works salvation. If you saved because of something you did, accept a gift, and all that stuff, its works salvation and condemned by God

 

[brightfame52]

You cannot escape the fact

Salvation depends on faith.

Romans 10:9–10 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Galatians 2:16 (LEB) — 16 but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Mark 16:16 (LEB) — 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 1:9 (LEB) — 9 obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Believing, is an evidence one is righteous, justified.

Now "accepting something" that's a work. If you believe God saved you because you accepted Jesus Christ, or accepted a gift and all that other "i accepted stuff" congratulations you boasting about your salvation by your works.

 

[TomL]

Believing, is an evidence one is righteous, justified.

Now "accepting something" that's a work. If you believe God saved you because you accepted Jesus Christ, or accepted a gift and all that other "i accepted stuff" congratulations you boasting about your salvation by your works.

Let scripture form your doctrine for a change.

You cannot escape the fact

Salvation depends on faith.

Romans 10:9–10 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Galatians 2:16 (LEB) — 16 but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Mark 16:16 (LEB) — 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 1:9 (LEB) — 9 obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You cannot escape the fact

Salvation depends on faith.

Romans 10:9–10 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Galatians 2:16 (LEB) — 16 but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Mark 16:16 (LEB) — 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 1:9 (LEB) — 9 obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I am not escaping that truth. @brightfame52 is.

I am a saved by faith person, But even those who are anti works such as @brightfame52 still try to force it down their oppositions throat for the mere reason they then can puff up and hollar "I got you" So I often will answer a nonsensical tongue in cheek knowing they then are on the defense..... .... Hence my response to @brightfame52

 

[TomL]

I am not escaping that truth. @brightfame52 is.

I am a saved by faith person, But even those who are anti works such as @brightfame52 still try to force it down their oppositions throat for the mere reason they then can puff up and hollar "I got you" So I often will answer a nonsensical tongue in cheek knowing they then are on the defense..... .... Hence my response to @brightfame52

I am sorry. Those comments were not to you but to brightfame52.

 

[brightfame52]

Let scripture form your doctrine for a change.

You cannot escape the fact

Believing is an evidence of salvation ! Also read this article I posted, you might get enlightened.

Thread 'Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9'

Jul 5, 2025

Many today misunderstand Rom 10:9 and find a way to from it teach a conditional salvation, however its not, its more of a giving evidence one is saved and shall be saved. This article is very enlightening:

Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9​

How shalt thou be saved? This is a great question of the scriptures. And the answer is given to us in Romans 10:9 which states, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This verse of scripture answers many of the...

• brightfame52
• Replies: 52
• Forum: Soteriology- The Doctrine of Salvation

 

[brightfame52]

I am not escaping that truth. @brightfame52 is.

I am a saved by faith person, But even those who are anti works such as @brightfame52 still try to force it down their oppositions throat for the mere reason they then can puff up and hollar "I got you" So I often will answer a nonsensical tongue in cheek knowing they then are on the defense..... .... Hence my response to @brightfame52

If one believes they got saved because they accepted something, that's salvation by works, and it denies Grace.