Micaiah
Active Member
What’s that got to do with anything?
I didn’t ask what kind of metaphor the verse was used in… it doesn’t matter.
Sure, make the problem texts not applicable…
Sinless Perfection
- Thread starter Bobby Walker
- Start date
What’s that got to do with anything?
I didn’t ask what kind of metaphor the verse was used in… it doesn’t matter.
Sure, make the problem texts not applicable…
Believe
Active Member
If it's in the Bible... it matters. The problem with the Bible Verses you use as a proof text is there taken out of context so you're right they are non applicable.
Hosanna
Active Member
Micaiah
Active Member
That seems to be the standard comeback of those who do not want to be under the authority of the holy scriptures.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Believe
Active Member
Well I'm sure you get it a lot and I understand the truth hurts. But you really shouldn't blame others for your lack of biblical interpretation. Just admit the truth because the truth will set you free.
The good news for me is I know when I fall short and I know how to Humbly ask god to forgive me. People that claim they never sin have no need of forgiveness because in their own minds they're perfect and without sin. It's a delusion. The problem of being deceived is that when you're being deceived you don't know it because you're deceived.
Welcome to fantasy island.
Micaiah
Active Member
“Biblical interpretation”?
You aren’t supposed to interpret the scriptures.
You are supposed to read and obey.
Simple instructions that God gives require no search for “interpretations”.
Nowhere in scripture do you see God telling us to “interpret” his word. God didn’t make it complicated or hidden in dark speeches to search for an interpretation from a wise man. His instructions are “do this, don’t do that”. It’s that simple.
The only things that were hidden from man were all the prophecies regarding the coming Saviour in the Old Testament. And these things have been opened to us. Now all we need to do is obey the instructions regarding our behavior In holiness.
Any challenge to the fleshly behavior would naturally offend those who are given over to it. Any appeal to these instruction texts usually results in cries of “that’s out of context”.
But:
“These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:14-15, KJV)
Believe
Active Member
Incorrect. After you twist the scriptures around they definitely need an interpreter.
Micaiah
Active Member
“Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:6, KJV)
Simple scripture.
It’s up to you to heed the simple warnings and stop the “interpretation” game.
Once you’re before the judgement, all these word and interpretation games will not work anymore.
Maurice
Active Member
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” Galatians 3:3
Paul’s encouragement was straightforward! The Philippians were to keep on walking the same walk and thinking the same thoughts. The language here is military. They were to “stay in line” behind the principles of the Word of God. They were to walk toward perfection. While we are not held responsible for sinless perfection, God does have that as His goal for us.
Listen to C. S. Lewis has to say.
That is why He warned people to “count the cost” before becoming Christians. “Make no mistake,” He says, “If you let Me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other than that.
You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life … whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect—until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with Me.
This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less.
David Jeremiah
Paul’s encouragement was straightforward! The Philippians were to keep on walking the same walk and thinking the same thoughts. The language here is military. They were to “stay in line” behind the principles of the Word of God. They were to walk toward perfection. While we are not held responsible for sinless perfection, God does have that as His goal for us.
Listen to C. S. Lewis has to say.
That is why He warned people to “count the cost” before becoming Christians. “Make no mistake,” He says, “If you let Me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other than that.
You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life … whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect—until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with Me.
This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less.
David Jeremiah
Believe
Active Member
No one is deceiving you, you've managed to deceive yourself. For instance the great white throne of judgment. Do you think that's going to be like a criminal trial where we'll be able to put on their defense? That's more faulty interpretation. I'm not talking to God about it I'm talking to you about it.
I'm not worried about a simple warning there's no warning in this conversation. You're trying to stand up for some false doctrine by using a bunch of scriptures that don't come close to saying what you think they say.
Micaiah
Active Member
False accusations.
But look at this:
“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning...” (1 John 3:8, KJV)
Of course this isn’t REALLY saying what it’s saying either, is it?
But I believe this scripture at FACE VALUE.
NO INTERPRETATION.
NO THINKING.
How about you?
Cyrus
Active Member
I plead the 5th amendment... refuse to provide testimony that could incriminate me.
Aeliana
Active Member
We all sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Romans 3:23
Hamartiology, then, explains why we miss the mark, how we miss the mark, and the consequences of missing the mark.
"Sinless Perfection" for us will not happen till we have new glorified bodies.
Glorified bodies, in Christian theology, refer to the transformed, immortal bodies that believers will receive after the resurrection, when Christ returns. These new bodies will be imperishable, powerful, and glorious, unlike our current mortal, earthly bodies. They are often described as being like Christ's resurrected body.
Hamartiology, then, explains why we miss the mark, how we miss the mark, and the consequences of missing the mark.
Hamartia
It’s a Greek word, spelled in Greek this way: ἁμαρτία. It’s also an archery term for when someone didn’t hit the target or put more simply missing the mark. When we translate this word in scripture we translate it as sin."Sinless Perfection" for us will not happen till we have new glorified bodies.
Glorified bodies, in Christian theology, refer to the transformed, immortal bodies that believers will receive after the resurrection, when Christ returns. These new bodies will be imperishable, powerful, and glorious, unlike our current mortal, earthly bodies. They are often described as being like Christ's resurrected body.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Chuckle!!!
There are many more places where it is taught by God to strive against Sin, which is striving for sinless perfection.
The Christ, the Holy One of Israel, told Abraham;
Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
And what did this same Christ say of Abraham?
Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Deut. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
In fact, the Bible is full of examples of men who strived for Sinless Perfection, men that God has Glorified for centuries. How many names of the the men in Sodom do you know about? But you know about Abraham. Check out Heb. 11, it is full of men who strived for sinless perfection.
Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
I could go on and on and on.
2 Pet. 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rev. 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith "of Jesus".
I would caution you to be careful not to make light of the instruction of God to strive for Sinless perfection, as so many examples in the Bible did, that according to Paul were written as examples to us, that we wouldn't Lust after the same disobedience they lusted after.
It's a great topic though, and important. Thanks for making the thread.
I would be careful not to confuse God's stated perception, with popular religious philosophy of this world.
Everyone has sinned but Jesus. Just because a person sins, doesn't mean they are not striving for sinless perfection. Consider the words of the same John.
1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
As for Paul, if you read just a little further he gives you the remedy for the dilemma he spoke to.
Rom. 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. "So then with the mind" I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
What id the Law of Sin? The man who sins shall die. If the flesh is crucified, then it no longer "Reigns on your mortal body", now you are guided by the Laws of God that are Holy, Just and Good.
Remember, Paul himself strived for the Sinless perfection that was in Christ Jesus. Here are his own words.
Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either "were already perfect": but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count "not myself" to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark "for the prize" of "the high calling of God" (Which was) in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
There is no argument against striving against sin, which is striving for sinless perfection.
1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
This means to destroy the "works of the devil" in me, yes? Since I am judged by my deeds.
Be careful of the Danger Jesus speaks to in Matt. 24:4-5. Like Eve, we are placed in a world with other voices, "Who profess to know God, and even quote "some" of God's Word. Like Paul says, HE gave us the Armor, all we need to do is put it on. Eve also had the Armor, but she didn't wear it.
If we are not willing to "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God, as instructed in this life, why would HE give us immortality in the next? I don't believe the Bible teaches that HE will.
Perhaps it's the Journey God wants us to partake of. The narrow path.
Great topic.
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What if the Law is Spiritual, and the Kingdom of God is within us, where His Temple is, and the Amalekites are the thoughts that refused to allow and fought against the Godly thoughts in our mind. After all, we don't fight against flesh and blood, and these examples were specifically written for us. Do you really believe God wants Paul and the Church of God to kill actual people? Or eat the flesh of other humans, even Jesus?
No, I don't believe that is the message God wants me to garner from this story HE had written for my admonition, by reason of use. When an evil thought comes into my mind, I strive to remember to take the sword of the Lord, the Word of God, and destroy every last part of it, man, woman, sheep, cattle, all of it. Not keep a few things and hide them under my tent, as Akan did. Or keep some of the idols and traditions of the old man I was in times past, as some of the wicked Kings of Israel did.
These stories really help me in my journey, after I understood God had them written specifically for me, for my admonition, not to murder people, but to put on a New Man.
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If you do not interpret the scriptures correctly, then how can you obey them?
Nowadays people like to say that the only ultimate reality is personal opinion. This is especially true where “religion” is concerned. It’s “my beliefs” against “your beliefs,” and there isn’t anything solid or objective against which to measure our different viewpoints.
Don’t get me wrong. I realize that people can take a book like the Bible and try to make it mean whatever they want it to mean. That doesn’t prove that they’re justified in doing so. The words of Scripture do mean something in their own right, whatever you or I may say about them. What’s more, they can be misrepresented or misconstrued. So it’s not just a matter of “personal interpretation.”
Think of it this way. In every trial, the defense, the prosecution, and each member of the jury all have an equal opportunity to examine the facts. Each of these parties may see those facts from a different angle. But in the final analysis there is only one truth about what really happened. A similar observation applies here.
That’s why it’s so important to study the Bible carefully, diligently, and with as much help as possible from those who are trained and skilled in the art of “rightly dividing the Word of Truth” 2 Timothy 2:15.
Biblical interpretation or hermeneutics is a broad and complex subject. If we really want to grasp the intended meanings of Scripture, we will have to do our homework.
Bobby Walker
Active Member
Sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realize they are supposed to be fighting.
Anyone who listens to Paul and studies the Holy Scriptures knows those who join themselves to the Lord, are in a battle. If a person listens to the "other voices" in the garden God places them in, they won't know. This has been true sine the very beginning.
Remember, in the Holy Scriptures Christ had written for our admonition, the faithless children of Israel threatened to stone Caleb and Joshua for trusting God concerning their battles. They too, had convinced themselves that the enemy Christ told them to overcome, is just too great for them, to big, just too powerful for the man of God in this life.
I think you are misunderstanding Paul's teaching that I tried to make known.
1 Cor.24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
In this example written for us, who won the race, according to God?
Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, "because" he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, "him will I bring into the land" whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
The victory is Christ's. But if I reject His Words in unbelief, AKA, "No Faith", how then shall I have a victory?
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an "incorruptible". 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and "bring it into subjection": lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The danger is the preaching that no one can win in this life, no one can attain in this life, therefore, it's foolish to obey the Command, after all, we have been taught by this world's religious system since our youth, as they all preach, "and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you". No different than the message spoken to Eve, "Thou shall surely not die", therefore it's foolish to listen to and believe we should "be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."
Or to labor, "That we might be accepted of Him".
It's dangerous to the Flesh, to believe. It's dangerous to all the religious sects and businesses which exist in the world God placed me in to believe. It was dangerous for Caleb, Abel, Shadrack, Stephen to believe.
But for those who believe, it is a saving Faith.
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