Sealed by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

[Doug Brents]

I'm still in shock over your questions.The Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. Plain and simple. The donkey did not get saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues.

It doesn't take being saved for the Spirit to impart the gift of tongues. As John the Baptizer said, God can make the stones into children of Abraham, He can certainly give the gift of tongues to anyone or anything He likes.

The spiritual gift of tongues is ONLY for the body of Christ who have already received the gift of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. So, you actually believe that the spiritual gift of tongues in 1 Corrinthians 12 applies to animals as well as humans? Seriously?

As 1 Cor 12:11 says, He can give His gifts to whomever He chooses. And as 1 Cor 12:6 says, the same Spirit works all things in ALL persons (not just within the Church). Matt 7:21-13 clearly shows that there are many who do miracles and work wonders who are not in Christ. Just the doing wonders does not mean that you are saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well then perhaps you can post a New Testament verse where a non church member is speaking in tongues praising God.

Good luck with that.

I have already done so: Acts 10:46

 

[Doug Brents]

That's ridiculous, so according to your reasoning then, the Holy Spirit fell on Peter also, because he too, was listening to his own message. By "all those who were listening", it is obvious that it means all those who Peter was preaching to and no, he was NOT preaching to his own companions, who had already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So on Sunday (or whatever day of the week you attend a worship service), when the minister preaches the Gospel, you don't listen, you don't learn, you don't seek additional insight into the Word through the minister's preaching because you are already in Christ? Hmmm. That explains a lot.

It is obvious to you because that is the interpretation that fits your preconception. But it is not what Scripture says. Yes, the Spirit fell on Peter also, not a re-indwelling but in renewed and increased empowerment.

 

[mailmandan]

It doesn't take being saved for the Spirit to impart the gift of tongues. As John the Baptizer said, God can make the stones into children of Abraham, He can certainly give the gift of tongues to anyone or anything He likes.

Where did anyone speak in tongues in the OT? You will come up with any type of faulty human logic in order to get around the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gift of tongues (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism because it destroys your false doctrine.

As 1 Cor 12:11 says, He can give His gifts to whomever He chooses. And as 1 Cor 12:6 says, the same Spirit works all things in ALL persons (not just within the Church). Matt 7:21-13 clearly shows that there are many who do miracles and work wonders who are not in Christ. Just the doing wonders does not mean that you are saved.

The apostle Paul is addressing "brethren" in 1 Corinthians 12 and not unbelievers or donkeys. In verses 12-14 Paul goes on to say - For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many. Paul is addressing the body of Christ. Not unbelievers and donkeys.

In regard to Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved, and Jesus did not confirm their alleged miracles and wonders. In 2 Thessalonians 2:9, we read - When the wicked one appears, Satan will pretend to work all kinds of miracles, wonders, and signs. In context, Jesus said - "Watch out for false prophets." (vs. 15)

 

[Doug Brents]

Where did anyone speak in tongues in the OT? You will come up with any type of faulty human logic in order to get around the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gift of tongues (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism because it destroys your false doctrine.

If that was consistent with ALL of Scripture, then I would agree with you. But it is NOT!! We are saved through faith, and the Gentiles had not yet exhibited faith. We are saved through the Spirit AND water, but the Gentiles had not yet passed through water. We are saved through obedience, but the Gentiles had not yet obeyed. We are saved through baptism, but the Gentiles had not yet been baptized. The Gentiles were NOT saved just because the Spirit fell on them in power.

The apostle Paul is addressing "brethren" in 1 Corinthians 12 and not unbelievers or donkeys. In verses 12-14 Paul goes on to say - For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many. Paul is addressing the body of Christ. Not unbelievers and donkeys.

I am addressing you, but that does not prevent me from including other people in the context of my statements. Paul is addressing the brethren, but he says that the Spirit works through ALL people, not just the Church.

In regard to Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved, and Jesus did not confirm their alleged miracles and wonders.

Are you saying that He lied? He said that they DID (not allegedly did, or they said they did) many miracles and great works, including casting out demons (which can't be done by the power of Satan (Matt 12:26).

 

[mailmandan]

If that was consistent with ALL of Scripture, then I would agree with you. But it is NOT!! We are saved through faith, and the Gentiles had not yet exhibited faith. We are saved through the Spirit AND water, but the Gentiles had not yet passed through water. We are saved through obedience, but the Gentiles had not yet obeyed. We are saved through baptism, but the Gentiles had not yet been baptized. The Gentiles were NOT saved just because the Spirit fell on them in power.

The Gentiles were saved (Acts 10:43-47) which was confirmed by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12)

I am addressing you, but that does not prevent me from including other people in the context of my statements. Paul is addressing the brethren, but he says that the Spirit works through ALL people, not just the Church.

What Paul said does not line up with your eisegesis.

Are you saying that He lied? He said that they DID (not allegedly did, or they said they did) many miracles and great works, including casting out demons (which can't be done by the power of Satan (Matt 12:26).

Jesus did not lie and THEY said they did those things and Jesus said He never knew them which tells me everything I need to know about them. Don't forget to read those verses in context starting with verse 15.

In regard to casting out demons, Satan may grant one of his agents to appear to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. The enemy could easily use this deception to win an audience for his claims.

I once watched a false prophet on TBN allegedly cast a demon out of someone else and I once knew a Mormon woman who claimed to cast a demon out of a young man and said the demon started to attack her, but then in an eerie voice said, "you are a child of God!" and then departed. She was very boastful about how that demon knew not to mess with her because she was a child of God!

You can always trust a demon to tell you the truth, NOT! Demons can easily put on a show to make you think that you casted them out. This experience caused her to be even more convinced that she was secure in her false religion, which was obviously the plan of the demon.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Gentiles were saved (Acts 10:43-47)

They were saved when they were baptized (in water) into Christ Jesus, but not before.

which was confirmed by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12)

Their speaking in tongues does not confirm that they were saved, because while that is a gift that 1 Cor 12 enumerates within the Church, it does not state that it is given exclusively within the Church; that is a fabrication and eisegesis of your own (and Tom's).

What Paul said does not line up with your eisegesis.

I gave no eisegesis. But what I have said lines up exactly with what Paul said, for his statement is Scripture and mine mirrors his.

THEY said they did those things

Which Jesus does not dispute.

and Jesus said He never knew them which tells me everything I need to know about them. Don't forget to read those verses in context starting with verse 15.

In regard to casting out demons, Satan may grant one of his agents to appear to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. The enemy could easily use this deception to win an audience for his claims.

Jesus said that Satan does not cast out Satan (Matt 12:26), so again you are calling Him a liar.

I once watched a false prophet on TBN allegedly cast a demon out of someone else and I once knew a Mormon woman who claimed to cast a demon out of a young man and said the demon started to attack her, but then in an eerie voice said, "you are a child of God!" and then departed. She was very boastful about how that demon knew not to mess with her because she was a child of God!

You can always trust a demon to tell you the truth, NOT! Demons can easily put on a show to make you think that you casted them out. This experience caused her to be even more convinced that she was secure in her false religion, which was obviously the plan of the demon.

Demons cannot be trusted, in that you are correct. But I would venture a guess that there was no demon involved in this story other than the one guiding her. She did not cast out a demon any more than I ever have. But the people to whom Jesus is referring did these things. And they did great miracles and worked wonders, not just that they said they did them.

 

[TomL]

I have already done so: Acts 10:46

Afraid not

They received the Spirit

They received the gift of the Spirit

They were baptized en the Spirit

which

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit.

shows they were in the body


They had repentance unto life.

And had their hearts purified by faith

Your theology requires you to ignore all those things.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It did not

What did I do to you that you struck me these three times?” Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you made a mockery of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now!” The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life until this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?” He said, “No.” Then Yahweh exposed the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of Yahweh standing in the road

Tongues is praising God in an unknown to you Language

So the donkey knew Hebrew???

 

[TomL]

The word γλῶσσα [glōssa] means the tongue, or language (often one not naturally acquired).

And the tongues spoken of

Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,

involves glorifying God

 

[TomL]

So the donkey knew Hebrew???

No, but it was not the gift of tongues seen to accompany the baptism en the Spirit which involves glorifying God.

Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,

 

[Jim]

And the tongues spoken of

Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,

involves glorifying God

In that instance, yes.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No, but it was not the gift of tongues seen to accompany the baptism en the Spirit which involves glorifying God.

Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,

So a donkey speaking HEBREW is a legitimate spiritual gift in your opinion?? 1 Cor 14 presents several "Uses" for the gift which your narrow definition ignores.

 

[dwight92070]

Those who say that baptism is required to be saved are denying the effectiveness of the work of the cross - and therefore put dishonor on Jesus who suffered for us there. Like the Judaizers, they must add something to the work of Christ. Consequently, what they teach is a different gospel than what Paul taught and they bring the curse of God on themselves. Having eyes, they do not see. Having ears, they do not hear. Otherwise they might return and be forgiven.

 

[TomL]

So a donkey speaking HEBREW is a legitimate spiritual gift in your opinion?? 1 Cor 14 presents several "Uses" for the gift which your narrow definition ignores.

Did you read what I stated?

1 cor 14 says nothing about Balam's donkey

And it is not remotely similar to the gentiles experience who had
Received the Holy Spirit
Received the gift of the Spirit
Were baptized en the Spirit which, according to 1 Cor 12:13 placed them in the body

Not one of those things were stated regarding the donkey.

 

[TomL]

In that instance, yes.

In that instance yes

All in the body have, however, been baptized en the Spirit whether haven spoken in tongues or not.

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

They were saved when they were baptized (in water) into Christ Jesus, but not before.

FALSE. They were saved when they believed in Him (Acts 10:43) confirmed by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues (Acts 10:45-46) BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47) To reject this crystal-clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest.

Their speaking in tongues does not confirm that they were saved, because while that is a gift that 1 Cor 12 enumerates within the Church, it does not state that it is given exclusively within the Church; that is a fabrication and eisegesis of your own (and Tom's).

Your eisegesis and blatant dishonesty is appalling. 1 Corinthians 12 states nothing about spiritual gifts being outside the body of Christ. These Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 not only spoke in tongues but received the gift of the Holy Spirit. This was an absolute confirmation they were saved. Acts 11:17 further confirms they received the same gift (Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (compare with Acts 16:31). Acts 15:7-9 also further confirms this. - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So, God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

I gave no eisegesis. But what I have said lines up exactly with what Paul said, for his statement is Scripture and mine mirrors his.

Absolutely FALSE. Until the blinders are removed..

Which Jesus does not dispute.

Jesus said that Satan does not cast out Satan (Matt 12:26), so again you are calling Him a liar.

I'm not calling Jesus a liar at all. Jesus said this in response to the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons and was making a point that if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. By Satan using trickery and deceit to keep false prophets deceived is not about Satan casting out Satan and being divided against himself.

Demons cannot be trusted, in that you are correct. But I would venture a guess that there was no demon involved in this story other than the one guiding her. She did not cast out a demon any more than I ever have.

That is your guess, but you were not there. The demon obviously used trickery and deceit to convince her that she cast it out. I could see her in that same group that says, Lord, Lord didn't we cast out demons... She boasted to my wife and I that she did.

But the people to whom Jesus is referring did these things. And they did great miracles and worked wonders, not just that they said they did them.

Did Jesus confirm that? They were obviously not children of God/saved believers because Jesus clearly told these many people that He never knew them which means they were never saved. So, where did these false prophets get this power to accomplish what they claimed to accomplish since Jesus never knew them? In context, Jesus starts out by saying, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." (vs. 15)

 

[Jim]

In that instance yes

All in the body have, however, been baptized en the Spirit whether haven spoken in tongues or not.

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Yes, Baptism in the Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with being able to work miracles.

 

[dwight92070]

Just a smattering of the 213 verses in the New Testament that mention salvation without mentioning baptism:

If baptism was a God-directed requirement for salvation - as opposed to being lost for all eternity, then wouldn't EACH of these verses include that strong warning? However NONE of these verses give that warning. Why? Because water baptism is not required to be saved. It IS required - commanded - AFTER we're saved.

Romans 3:22 "even the righteousness of God through (baptism? No) faith in Jesus Christ for all those who (are baptized? No) believe."
Romans 3:26 " ... so that He would be just and the justifier of the one (who is baptized? No) who has faith in Jesus."
Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith (and baptism? No) apart from works of the Law (or works of righteousness like baptism)."
Romans 3:30 "since indeed God who will justify the circumcised (or baptized) by faith and the uncircumcised (or not baptized) through faith is one." Just as a man can have faith with or without circumcision, so a man can have faith with or without baptism.
Romans 4:9-10 "Is this blessing (salvation) then on the circumcised (or baptized) or on the uncircumcised (not baptized) also? For we say, 'Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness'. How then was it credited? ...not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;" In the same way today, faith is credited as righteousness without baptism or with baptism.
Romans 4:12 " ... who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised." Even so today, we follow the faith of our father Abraham without being baptized - for salvation. Then, after being saved, we will be baptized.
Romans 4:13 "For the promise to Abraham (and to US, his seed) or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law (or water baptism), but through the righteousness of faith (and baptism? No)."
Romans 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith (and water baptism? No), we have peace with God through (baptism? No) our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No, but it was not the gift of tongues seen to accompany the baptism en the Spirit which involves glorifying God.

That's just your opinion.