Not much I can respond. The ideas or scripture do not seem to identify the devil's essence. Just to be sure, are you denying the unique person being described as Satan?
Satan and his Lies
- Thread starter mikesw
- Start date
Runningman
Active Member
Then Satan still has access to heaven and is not locked up. As inconvenient as it is, God allows his existence and going abouts for His purposes. The locking up is future. Keep reading Revelation and you'll see the 1000 year lock up later on.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Let's test that:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4.
Jesus said, "I saw Satan as lightning fall." Is there any Scripture that says Satan rose again?
Peter is speaking in the past tense. Jesus spoke in the past tense. How are these future?
Answer: They're not. It is past tense.
The angels that sinned were "delivered into chains of darkness." Past tense.
"Reserved unto judgment" is past tense.
I suggest you study these without consulting a commentary. All you're doing is regurgitating what's written in other people's bible studies. When you consult commentaries and don't come under the anointing and study these things on your own, then all you're doing is regurgitating false doctrine.
You believe Satan was with Jesus in the desert tempting Him, right? Well, that too is false teaching.
When you consult commentaries, you vex the Holy Spirit and short-circuit your thinking and come up with false teaching.
Runningman
Active Member
If the great tribulation is future then the fall of the devil, the locking up of the devil is future too. What Jesus and Peter said can be understood as prophetic.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
According to Isaiah, Peter, and Jude, the angels that sinned are already 'locked up' awaiting judgment.
The grammar indicates past tense.
I've been out for awhile, but wanted to respond to this. I don't believe "Satan/the Devil" is a talking snake, or a dragon that fell out of the sky, or that the Parables God inspired were to teach me that the devil are these things. The word satan itself means "Adversary". Who is it an adversary to? That would be God, Yes?
Is.14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I {in the mind} I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
It isn't flesh, but principalities of the air, an adversarial spirit.
Eph. 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness "in high places." I believe this is our mind. Our thoughts that influence our works/deeds/fruits.
A spirit that dwells within the mind of man. Adversarial thoughts against the Word of God.
Consider for a moment an inhabited island in the pacific. God's Spirit, Holy, Just, Perfect, is there as it is everywhere..
Matt. 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
There is no evil here. No "spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience". Satan, as described in Scriptures, doesn't exist on this island until a mortal mind comes there. And in that event, it is only made manifest by the man's works who listen to the adversarial voice/thought. And works of a human only exist as a result of "Thought".
So in my study, satan is an adversarial spirit that mortals must fight against. God told Eve,
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What is "Knowledge", if not "Thought". It's good to have the Knowledge of Good, or have God's Word in our minds, or as it is written, "Let the mind (Thoughts) that was in Christ Jesus be in you. But knowledge (Thoughts) that are adversarial to God's Word is fatal.
Eve's "fruits" are her works based on her thoughts, which are influenced by who she chooses to "Hear". God gave her Righteousness, Holiness and good. He directed her in the way that she should go, as HE did all His creation, and directed her not to entertain adversarial thoughts, or "Evil". God knew she would be exposed to them, because free will is about "Choice". Jesus said you can know who a man serves by his works. Paul said that we are servants to whom we obey. There are God's Words, and there are words that are not Gods Words. We are not instructed by God to serve both, (Good and Evil) as we can only have one master.
Paul understood this.
1 Cor. 6:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2 Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Jesus taught him this.
Matt. 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matt. 4: 3 And when the tempter (Adversarial voice) came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matt. 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, (Adversarial) saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest (Thoughts, desires)not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
By virtue is the commandment, "Thou shall not", the "adversary" is born in the mind of man. We are to "rule over" this adversary.
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (Her adversarial thoughts) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, (Her thoughts) and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (These are all "Thoughts" she had after being told, "Thou shall not") she took of the fruit ( her deeds after yielding herself to adversarial thought) thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband (Or anyone else that would have been there) with her; and he did eat.
The adversarial thought has no power, unless we give it power. And that power manifests itself by our works. This is why God said HE will judge Every Man according to his works. Because our "works" show who we listened to and serve or trust.
It is really simple. God says not to take what is not yours. Not to lust after disobedience, not to eat or drink certain things, not to treat people unjustly, etc. But there is another voice in the garden (Mind) God placed us in, promoting adversarial thoughts.
"I make my own judgments", "I determine what is good and what is not". We have all been deceived by this adversarial voice. But there is hope for us. We can "Turn to Gods Word". We can tell the adversarial voice, "Get behind me satan".
As it is written, "Today, if you hear God's Word, harden not your hearts" (as you did when you were children of the devil.)
We can, "put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts"
23 And be renewed in the spirit "of your mind;"
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
This is the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then "with the mind" I myself "serve the law of God" (Holy, Just and good) but with the flesh the law of sin. (Adversarial thoughts, like Amalekites" are destroyed and not tolerated.)
It isn't easy sometimes, just as it wasn't easy for Caleb and Joshua, who believed in God while being surrounded by men who "professed to know Him", but listened to the adversarial voice.
Nope.
Satan appeared around God as seen in the Book of Job. This is not just some bad thoughts in God's mind. Satan is a creature of the field when speaking in a rough sense. He mainly has had influence from outside of people.
That is what this world's religions preach, who come in Christ's Name. But I am going off what is actually written in Scriptures.
Jesus Himself said that what comes from without, cannot defile a man. What comes from within defiles a man.
Matt. 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For "out of the heart" proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
It's not the harlot on the street corner that defiles and man, it's the lust that comes from within his mind, that defiles him, at least this is truth according to the Jesus "of the bible".
Matt. 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
It's not the swine's flesh, or the woman, or the money that defiles a man, it is the "spirit" from within and lusts after these things, contrary to God's Instruction in righteousness, that defiles a man.
At least this is what the Scriptures teach.
We do not use passages about people to define passages about Satan. That is at least what I understand from principles of exegesis.
I can see this.
But Paul did.
2 Cor. 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Jesus did.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John did.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus was addressing the people of that era and sharing a fulfillment of Gen 3:15. For them to be children of the devil, the devil has to exist independently. These are obvious details underlying the verses you share.
@Studyman
Highlighted bold letters are mine for discussion. Let me ask you this one question and be straight forward with your answer: "Are you saying you do not believe that Satan is a spirit apart from the fallen nature of man? Do you believe Satan is a fallen angel? Yes, or No?"
I am familiar with the popular thought process held by many, "who come in Christ's Name", that the God Inspired Words of the Bible were written for someone else, and not them. I do not hold to this philosophy, even though it is popular with the religions of the Land God placed me in.
Nevertheless, Paul, Jesus and John used passages about people to define passages about satan.
Even Paul understood that we fight against an adversarial spirit that is only made manifest in the mind of man.
2 Cor. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself ( the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience) is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers ( the rulers of the darkness of this world, against "spiritual wickedness in high places") also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end "shall be according to their works"
The purpose of my post was to show an understanding of this topic, based on the study of scriptures alone, apart from the influence of all the "other voices" in the garden God placed me in, "Who profess to know God, but are disobedient to Him".
You don't believe that God had these things written for men of this time. I find no evidence of this philosophy given in Scriptures.
i'm confused by what you mean by this remark. It has nothing to do with what I posted.
Satan, a word that means "adversary", is defined by Scriptures as a talking snake, a fallen angel, a dragon that falls from the sky, the prince of this world, a spirit that worketh in the children of men who transgress God's commandments, the father of lies, etc.
I know through study that satan, whatever it is, only has power in the mind of mortal men who listen to it.
An uninhabited island with no humans, has God's Spirit, His perfect law, His Righteousness exists there, but no evil. Evil can only enter this island through the mind of mortal men.
So whatever satan is, a talking snake, a fallen dragon, a fallen angel, it only has power though the minds of men who listen to it.
It existed in Eve's mind "before" she fell. Had she not listened to it, there would be no fall. Had she engaged in the fight Paul spoke of, and "put on" the Armor that God most certainly had provided for her, she would have not Transgressed, and would not have passed her transgression onto others. She would have "ruled over the adversarial thought", that existed in her mind and not produced the disobedient work.
Jam. 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away "of his own lust", and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
So for me, it doesn't matter where the adversarial voice comes from. Whether a talking snake, a man who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, a minister of righteousness, or a voice who has transformed itself into an apostle of Christ, or a thought that simply comes into my mind, they are all the same to me. If they teach against even the least of God's commandments, they are not wrought in God and I will not listen to them.
There is only ONE God, and as it is written, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts. Any voice that is adversarial to the Words of this God, is of the devil.
I was responding to your reply.
I believe, based on what is written, that the Words of the Christ in Gen. 3, and His Inspired Words I posted, were written for me, in this time in history. Just as it was written for my great grandfather, in his time in history. But I have been taught by this world's religious system, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that much of the Inspired Words of God were not written for me, but for someone else, a different "era" or even to a different people all together. I find no proof of this philosophy in Scriptures.
As for the parable in Gen. 3, lets explore it.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
I don't believe God didn't know where Adam was, is the meaning I am to garner from this parable.
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
What does it mean to be "Naked"? Doesn't it mean "Uncovered"? Who was Adam's covering? Why then was Adam uncovered? Did God remove the covering, or did Adam remove it?
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof "I commanded thee" that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman "whom thou gavest to be with me", she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Consider this for a moment. In your understanding and use of this scripture doctrine wise, according to your posts, God must not have known that Adam disobeyed Him. Or who it was that told him he was uncovered. And notice that he completely refuses to take responsibility for his own rejection of God's commandments, blaming instead the woman God gave him. Implying that it was God's Fault Adam pushed God's Covering away, and became naked.
I don't believe that was the message God intended for His People when HE had this Parable written for them. But I can surely identify with Adam's actions here, as I am guilty of doing the exact same thing, that is, doing what I know is wrong, and then justifying my "deeds" by placing the blame on someone else, or God for placing me in the circumstance that caused my sin.
Adam could have just repented and told God the truth.
I'm sorry, I knew it was a sin to do the evil "works", but I exalted myself above you and rejected your covering.
Let's continue in our examination of Scriptures.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Consider this for a moment. In your understanding and use of this scripture doctrine wise, according to your posts, God must not have known what the woman did until HE asked her this question. And she blamed the serpent that God placed in the garden. Which implies, as so much of this world's religions imply, that it was ultimately God's Fault, God's Creation, God's mistake that facilitated Eve's sin. She certainly agrees with popular religious philosophy in this matter, choosing not to accept responsibility for, and even blame Gods creation, "for her own choices".
I don't believe that was the message God intended for His People when HE had this Parable written for them. But I can surely identify with Eve's actions here, as I am guilty of doing the exact same thing, that is, doing what I know is wrong, and then justifying it by placing the blame on someone else. Didn't Paul warn about this very thing, about turning away from the Simplicity of Christ?
Eve could have just repented and told the truth.
I'm sorry Father, I was drawn away by my own lust, and was enticed by it to sin against you.
Or is it your contention that James wasn't speaking by the Spirit of Christ?
Let's continue examining what is actually written.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Consider this for a moment. In your understanding and use of this scripture doctrine wise, according to your posts, God must not have known about this "adversarial" spirit that existed or could enter into the minds of mortal humans HE created, including Eve.
That somehow God didn't know that all of this was going to happen when HE PLACED this deceiving, subtle creation in the minds of mortal humans. But I don't believe that is the message God intended me to garner from this Parable HE had written for my admonition. Rather, HE has taught me to take heed of my own flesh, not to be drawn away from my own lusts which exist in the minds of all mortal humans.
As it is also written:
Jer. 17: 9 The heart (Mind of man) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Truly it is "cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field".
Let's continue examining what is actually written.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Who is the "HE" mentioned here?
I believe the "woman" here, is God's True Church, the Bride of Christ who is engaged in a battle against the "adversary", that is, the evil that resides within us, that can defile us, as Jesus teaches.
Matt. 15: 19 For out of the heart (Mind of man) proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
This stuff is all connected, in my view, and wasn't written for them, but for me in this time in history.
As Paul teaches.
1 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
@Studyman
So, before I respond, I need to ask more questions, so I know 100% your understanding of this subject ~ which btw, is not strange to me, since Mountain Retreat forum headed up by Tony Warren, believes similar to this, if not exactly as that. They believe that Satan is the fallen nature of man, the corrupt part of man, yet they had problems addressing certain scriptures, your understanding is not exactly like their, but close.
So. my questions are these: WHO tempted Christ? and WHOM did Christ cast out of people, and they talked to Christ? And lastly, do you believe there are spirits called angles, some holy, some wicked and sinful, and one sinful and wicked there is one over/above the wicked angles, called the old serpent, the devil, Satan?
Thank you for your direct answer, much appreciated in all sincerity.
So, before I respond, I need to ask more questions, so I know 100% your understanding of this subject ~ which btw, is not strange to me, since Mountain Retreat forum headed up by Tony Warren, believes similar to this, if not exactly as that. They believe that Satan is the fallen nature of man, the corrupt part of man, yet they had problems addressing certain scriptures, your understanding is not exactly like their, but close.
So. my questions are these: WHO tempted Christ? and WHOM did Christ cast out of people, and they talked to Christ? And lastly, do you believe there are spirits called angles, some holy, some wicked and sinful, and one sinful and wicked there is one over/above the wicked angles, called the old serpent, the devil, Satan?
Last edited:
Let me add something more ~ If anyone listened to Tony Warren speaking of Satan, you would think he's speaking of literal evil spirit, but he is not, you would have to listen to him on many subjects before you ever would see and know that he did not believe Satan was a fallen angel who rebel against against God, etc. He did not even believe in angels/spirits.
What Does it mean, Some Have Entertained Angels Unawares?
Bible Study on what does it mean that some have entertained Angels unawares. by Tony Warren
www.mountainretreatorg.net
Last edited:
Dizerner
Active Member
Why does your statement here conflict with their direct statement of faith?
The Spirit Satan
Statement of Faith - Center for Biblical Theology and Eschatology
Biblical Theology and Bible study in Revelation the book of Daniel from the historical protestant amillennial position
www.mountainretreatorg.net
Look what I said above.
We recognize the spirit of evil, the personality of Satan, and his present rule and control as a slave master over unregenerate man. We recognize his working (Ephesians 2:2) in unregenerated man unto disobedience and enmity against God, and our present spiritual warfare against his trickery.
This is well crafted in a way you would not believe that they do not believe in spirits. I'll find more for you to see.
Did you read the article that I posted by Mr. Warren?
Last edited:
