Replacement Theology: What It Is and Why It Matters for Christians

[jeremiah1five]

Which is why Paul said that by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, lest any man shouldst boast. So no, there is nothing connected to the grace or faith. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone. And this is found in scripture alone. And here, Paul clearly states it is the gift of God.

The Mosaic Covenant sets down salvation. The Ceremonial Law is given to Israel to foreshadow the salvation of the Lord. The animals that were sacrificed every year on Passover although temporary laid out how God was going to save His people through substitutionary sacrifice and it was the plan of God, and it didn't include faith. This is what God was going to do despite faith. He sent His Son as substitute for the animals and once this was accomplished on the cross then Israel was saved. That's it. There is nothing in the Ceremonial Law that says Jesus was going to die but it won't become effective until 'someone' expresses faith in order to be saved. This theology means that on the day Jesus died He didn't save anyone. But that's not what the whole instruction of the Ceremonial Law rests on.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25–27.

Verse 27 explains what God was going to do to save Israel. "This is my covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins." There is no "faith" mentioned. There is no "you must believe the gospel." There is no requirement that Israel must do something in order to be saved. Salvation is OF THE LORD. Plain and simple. But men like to add to the salvation that is OF THE LORD. This salvation that is OF THE LORD explains what God was going to do. It's His covenant. It's His Promises. And Jesus fulfilled the [Ceremonial] Law. There was nothing that men were required to do to complete the salvation that is OF THE LORD. Jesus Himself said, "It is finished!" God sent His own Son to Israel in order to take upon Himself the sins of Israel as was prophesied and once Jesus resurrected from the grave the work Jesus accomplished was "Finished." That's it. There is nothing men must do to add to Jesus' finished work.

Now, did God want Israel to trust Him? Yes. But it was all within the construct of the covenant itself. Did God want Israel to believe that Jesus was their salvation? Yes. But faith was not part of that salvation. Men couldn't save themselves. God did not require them to "have faith" after Israel was saved in order to be saved. This is what the Law taught Israel. It - the Law - contains everything that God required for Israel to live perfect, holy lives. The Scripture - including the Moral Law, the Social Law, and the Ceremonial Law - is as Saul said, [was] for "instruction in righteousness so that the man of God is perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." But the Law didn't save them. God did.

Um, that is why Paul spent Galatians saying to get out from under the Law, because the Law is a Law of death. If you break one Law you are guilty of breaking all of the Law. Jesus perfectly kept the Law, because if He did not, it would first of all prove He wasn't who He claimed to be, and secondly, He couldn't be our sacrifice for sins, He would be too busy dying for His own.

Saul said all that to them while they tried to "keep the Law" in order to be saved. It wasn't necessary. God already saved them. The cross was behind them. Israel was already saved. And in time God began to birth "new lives" as the days, weeks, months, and years moved on. Jesus was already resurrected and ascended to heaven. The work Jesus performed had already been "Finished!" There was NOTHING for Israel to do.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise
With healing in his wings;
And ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked;
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
In the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 4:2–3.

And approximately 400 years later God did this.

If you are teaching that men "must have faith in order to be saved" then you are teaching that on the day Jesus died He saved NO ONE. Think about that for a second. Jesus on the cross said, "It is finished!" Jesus died to save Israel and He died on the cross to accomplish that goal. The salvation OF THE JEWS was "Finished!" Israel IS SAVED. Now here comes people like you that add to salvation by saying "[one] must have faith in order to be saved." What for? Israel is already saved. The thing that is confusing you is the false teaching that non-Hebrew Gentiles can or have been saved. Get Gentiles out of the Lord's salvation and focus yourself on Israel alone. You quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and here it is:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8–9.

Saul wrote this letter to Jews and Jewish believers of The Way in Ephesus around AD 60-62. He was in prison at the time. But in AD 30-33 Jesus died on the cross. Saul's letter to Ephesus was written around 30 years later. Now tell me, When Jesus was on the cross and He said, "It is finished!" and died did Jesus save anyone that day? If you add to the Bible that 30 years later, and for us two thousand years later, that "one must have faith in order to be saved", then you are saying that on the day Jesus died and from the cross He says, "It is Finished!" He saved no one on the day He died because it [salvation] doesn't become effective until one later exerts faith to be saved. That's YOUR position. And that position is not supported by the Bible.

My position, however, is that on the day Jesus died He said, "It is Finished!" and then He died, and on that day He saved 'someone' that day. He didn't die to make salvation possible if one would later 'believe', no, He died on the cross and actually saved 'someone' the day He died. Who did He save?
He saved Israel.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26–27.

Now, the question is, "Did God take away their sins (on the day Jesus died)", or did He take away their sins the moment one expresses faith in Jesus and becomes born-again?" which is what you believe.

Abraham was a Hebrew. The reasons Gentiles were circumcised was to become proselytes. Paul was teaching that in Christ, there is no need to proselytize.

You are very mistaken. All Jews knew Moses and the prophets never said anything about non-Hebrew Gentiles being circumcised let alone made inheritors of Abraham's Promises nor that they would be saved. And no Jew would ever circumcise a non-Hebrew Gentile or compel them to obey the Law of Moses. There is where you error begins. You take what God has Promised Abraham and his seed and insert Gentiles and confuse the issue. And you can't provide any Scripture that is in the Old Testament that says Gentiles would be circumcised and that salvation is of the Gentiles. Where does God or Jesus say that Gentiles would become saved, and heirs of the Abraham Promises.

The Law is for Israel, as the Mosaic Covenant. It is not for the Gentiles. It does show us what God's holiness looks like, imperfectly of course, for in order to meet God's standard, one must perfectly keep all 613 laws. And the scriptures they had included the prophets... all of them.

"11 For the grace of God has appeared, [f]bringing salvation to all men, 12 [g]instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of [h]our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."

Text without context is a pretext.

It should be interpreted correctly, which pushes for faith not the Law.
Galatians 2:
"15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of [n]the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of [o]the Law; since by the works of [p]the Law no [q]flesh will be justified. "

Paul was saying not to live under the Law. Salvation is by faith, not the works of the Law. As Paul Himself said, by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified. That is, by the works of the law, all flesh is damned. Also, Paul was not a prophet. So there is that. He was an apostle, a minister of the gospel.

Here is more clear writing of Paul:
"17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through [r]the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and [t]the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

And a bit more (quite a bit) from Galatians 3
"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by [c]hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by the works of [h]the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 [j]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, [k]be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God [l]would justify the [m]Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with [n]Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

There is a lot more of this in Galatians. A lot more.

You can't produce any Scripture from the Hebrew Bible that Gentiles would have to be circumcised in order to be saved nor can you produce any Scripture in the Hebrew Bible that Gentiles would become saved, and heirs of the Abraham Promises.

You correctly say the Law of Moses was for Israel and that Gentiles are not nor have they ever been under the Law, and then you add Gentiles into the Jewish covenants by misinterpreting what Saul says about "one must have faith to be saved" when Jesus from His cross said, "It is Finished!" meaning that Israel is already saved as prophesied by the Prophets and Jesus Himself. On top of that you say Gentiles were never under the Law but that one has to have faith in Jesus in order to be saved. By adding Gentiles into the Hebrew salvation, you teach Jesus changed the Law to include Gentiles when Jesus Himself said "I came not to destroy the Law" meaning the Law can't be changed nor added to on the whims of certain people.

If the Law of Moses was only for the Jews and the yearly sacrifices of animals and their blood sprinkled on the people, on the book of the covenant and the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant, then when it came time for Jesus to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the children of Israel "once and for all" you add Gentiles in the salvation [that is] of the Jews by saying that only by faith can one be saved, thus nullifying Jesus' work on the cross when He said, "It is Finished!"

 

[armylngst]

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as the result. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to be doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and becoming doers of the Torah. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works in obedience to the Torah has nothing to with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is intrinsically the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present.

Paul said that the gift was salvation. The content of that gift is given in Ephesians 1, which says that we have an inheritance in Christ, and that the Holy Spirit indwelling us is the down payment (earnest) of our inheritance until we take physical (material) possession.

part of of the content of His gift of salvation. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Matthew 5:16, our good works in obedience to the Torah bring glory to God, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, and in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this is the one and only way of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for the glory of God alone.

Romans 1:5 says that the apostles received grace and apostleship in order to bring about the obedience of faith in those to whom they minister. As for Matthew 5;16:
"16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
Nothing about the Torah.
We should walk the same way He walked. For Psalm 119, David was a Jew, and in fact the king of Israel. However, nothing about teaching.

The Torah only brings death to those who refuse to submit to it.

That is NOT what Paul says in Galatians. He says the Law (Torah) brings death to all who would submit to it. He points to faith. The Law was simply a tutor to point the people to Christ their Messiah. To Peter, at the church council, the Law meant bondage, a bondage he told the church, that should not be upon the Gentiles. That does not mean the Law is ignored, but it is a Law unto death not life. It is impossible to keep the law.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to earn eternal life as the result.

However, only Jesus could and did keep those two laws. What happens if you fail to obey the two greatest commandments? Remember, Jesus said that ALL of the law falls under those two commandments. If you break one little law, you broke one of these two laws. Would that not mean death, which is the opposite of eternal life?

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by committing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to keep the law more consistently. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. While only Jesus had perfect obedience he was the only one who needed to have perfect obedience because the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

It was Paul, not James, who said they had to have perfect obedience. However, to put one's hope in the Torah is to not put one's faith in Yeshua.

That passage does not say anything them becoming proselytes. In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that came up out of Egypt, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai. Though again it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required to do something for an incorrect reason without speaking against bring required to do it for the reasons that God commanded it.

The Torah was given to Israel in order to equip them to be a light and a blessing to the nations by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to obey it in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom. Again, Deuteronomy 30 presents obedience to the Torah as being a possibility and as a choice, but does not present God's standard as perfect obedience. We can't earn our righteousness, salvation, or eternal life even as the result of having perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5) because it was never given as a way of doin that in the first place, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. There has never been a single person who has been required to keep all 613 laws and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period.

Yes. It is also why God said that the nation of Israel was to be a nation of priests. Who was this nation of priests to serve, if not themselves? The Gentiles. However, they failed.

Again, that only further supports how I used those verses.

There is a difference between these two positions:

1.) Our righteousness, salvation, and eternal life require us to choose to be a doer of the Torah.

However, the church at Jerusalem told the Gentiles that that was not the case. They said, flee immorality and do not eat meat sacrificed to idols. (I believe there was one other). If they did these things, it would be well with them. Again, I am not saying we are to go out and sin our lives away, of course not. However, the we, as Paul says, are not to become bound to the Torah, or we will die under the Torah. (That death meaning, no salvation.) You do understand that there are 613 laws to be followed under to Torah, and that scripture has not said that any have expired or passed away, right? If you eat a pig, you broke the Torah and are thus shut out from the kingdom for failing to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, by following the Torah.

2.) Our righteousness, salvation, and eternal life require us to choose to be a doer of the Torah in order to earn them as the result.

No. It requires us to follow Christ, as Paul taught. What did Paul tell the Galations that he brought to them. He sought to see them taught the cross, that is Christ and Christ crucified only. When the Judaizers came with the Torah, Paul was, well... rather miffed.
Galatians 1
"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [c]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed!"
Galatians 2
"Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 [a]It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. 3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage."

The Bible affirms 1 while denying 2 and verses that deny 2 should not be used to argued against 1. For example, Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our obedience to the Torah while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous.

I have not claimed that.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12 he contrasted, the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, Paul said that our faith upholds the Torah in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Torah, which is why it is not of faith. So the fact that we can't earn our righteousness even as the result of perfect obedience to the Law of God makes us that much more true that we can't earn it as the result of obeying "works of the law".

Galatians 3
"10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law [Torah] before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law [Torah] is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law [Torah], having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is Paul's main point. We do not follow the Torah, we follow Christ by faith. If we follow Christ truly in faith, we are in line with the spirit of the Law. However, to follow the Torah is to not follow Christ, but instead to be cursed.

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to abide by all the things written in the Book of the Law means that we should continue to abide by all the things written in the Book of the Law, which is why everyone who relies on works of the law instead comes under that curse.

To abide by all the things written in the book of the law is to rely on the works of the law. That is what you are putting your faith in, and Paul says that is wrong. Our faith is in Christ.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Torah shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Torah.

A text without context is a pretext. If you read what preceded in the passage in Galatians you will find:
"6 [j]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, [k]be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God [l]would justify the [m]Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with [n]Abraham, the believer."

Abraham did not have the Torah to follow. So, either 1. He actually went to hell/sheol and not paradise, though Jesus says Abraham was in Paradise, for not following the Torah which had not yet been written. or 2. God reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness.

In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Torah. God is trustworthy, therefore the Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in the Torah, it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God for salvation but not in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

I John 3
"4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

There is no mention of the Torah here. Since sin is lawlessness (Missing the standard of law), then everyone who practices sin, which is lawlessness, also practices lawlessness (by definition). If you keep the Torah, and sin, verse 6 says that you have neither seen Him or known Him. Understand practicing sin means a pattern of habitual sin that one is living in. To sin one moment, but not to be practicing a habitual pattern of sin is different.

 

[armylngst]

The Mosaic Covenant sets down salvation.

The Mosaic Covenant has nothing to do with salvation. It saves no one. Faith saves and that it how it has always been. Salvation by grace through faith.

The Ceremonial Law is given to Israel to foreshadow the salvation of the Lord. The animals that were sacrificed every year on Passover although temporary laid out how God was going to save His people through substitutionary sacrifice and it was the plan of God, and it didn't include faith. This is what God was going to do despite faith. He sent His Son as substitute for the animals and once this was accomplished on the cross then Israel was saved. That's it. There is nothing in the Ceremonial Law that says Jesus was going to die but it won't become effective until 'someone' expresses faith in order to be saved. This theology means that on the day Jesus died He didn't save anyone. But that's not what the whole instruction of the Ceremonial Law rests on.

He provided a way for Israel to be different from the nations around, and provide a way that they could be in right standing before Him, however, some still went to sheol/hell. That was Jesus issues with the pharisees who taught that all Jews enter the kingdom. All you have to do is read Zechariah, and see where God blatantly states that 2/3rds of Israel, during the judgment, are damned, and only 1/3 will enter the kingdom, purged and redeemed. There is a lot to it.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25–27.

However, other scripture makes it clear that no all Israel will be saved, so one has to consider that since all is not always universal, what does scripture mean. It means, all of the remnant that belongs to God in Israel. And beyond that, I believe that when Jesus returns to save Israel, that the only ones left alive will be God's elect in Israel, so it really will be "all Israel".

Verse 27 explains what God was going to do to save Israel. "This is my covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins." There is no "faith" mentioned. There is no "you must believe the gospel."

There is a, you must believe the gospel. You understand that when God takes away their sins, it is because God reveals the truth to them, and they accept, right? They believe. Why? Jesus will personally visit His people, they will see Him, they will recognize Him, they will accept and believe in Him.

There is no requirement that Israel must do something in order to be saved. Salvation is OF THE LORD. Plain and simple. But men like to add to the salvation that is OF THE LORD. This salvation that is OF THE LORD explains what God was going to do. It's His covenant. It's His Promises. And Jesus fulfilled the [Ceremonial] Law. There was nothing that men were required to do to complete the salvation that is OF THE LORD. Jesus Himself said, "It is finished!" God sent His own Son to Israel in order to take upon Himself the sins of Israel as was prophesied and once Jesus resurrected from the grave the work Jesus accomplished was "Finished." That's it. There is nothing men must do to add to Jesus' finished work.

Abraham presented faith, and God credited his faith as righteousness. Don't you believe that his descendants would have to at least do that? I mean, Paul says as much in Romans his writings.

Now, did God want Israel to trust Him? Yes. But it was all within the construct of the covenant itself. Did God want Israel to believe that Jesus was their salvation? Yes. But faith was not part of that salvation. Men couldn't save themselves. God did not require them to "have faith" after Israel was saved in order to be saved. This is what the Law taught Israel. It - the Law - contains everything that God required for Israel to live perfect, holy lives. The Scripture - including the Moral Law, the Social Law, and the Ceremonial Law - is as Saul said, [was] for "instruction in righteousness so that the man of God is perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." But the Law didn't save them. God did.

Sorry, that isn't how it worked. It was not at all written within the construct of the covenant, which is why that covenant, the Mosaic covenant, is dead and gone. That is why a new covenant. Paul already said that no one can keep the law, and anyone who tries is UNDER A CURSE. That curse is not entering the kingdom. Only Jesus kept the law, and that will always be true. (There are 613 laws...)

Saul said all that to them while they tried to "keep the Law" in order to be saved. It wasn't necessary. God already saved them. The cross was behind them. Israel was already saved. And in time God began to birth "new lives" as the days, weeks, months, and years moved on. Jesus was already resurrected and ascended to heaven. The work Jesus performed had already been "Finished!" There was NOTHING for Israel to do.

What he said was if they live by the law, they would die by the law. That is, they aren't saved. Israel is not automatically saved. Israel is saved just as the Gentiles are, however, their list of blessings and benefits is MUCH LARGER. The Abrahamic covenant still belongs to Israel, and will be fulfilled in the Messianic Kingdom.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise
With healing in his wings;
And ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked;
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
In the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 4:2–3.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

Context matter. Text without context is a pretext. The above that you mentioned is solely for those who fear God's name. What happens to the rest? They are burned up like stubble. And he is, according to you... and according to context... speaking to Israel, not the Gentiles.

And approximately 400 years later God did this.

If you are teaching that men "must have faith in order to be saved" then you are teaching that on the day Jesus died He saved NO ONE. Think about that for a second. Jesus on the cross said, "It is finished!" Jesus died to save Israel and He died on the cross to accomplish that goal. The salvation OF THE JEWS was "Finished!" Israel IS SAVED. Now here comes people like you that add to salvation by saying "[one] must have faith in order to be saved." What for? Israel is already saved. The thing that is confusing you is the false teaching that non-Hebrew Gentiles can or have been saved. Get Gentiles out of the Lord's salvation and focus yourself on Israel alone. You quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and here it is:

Men must have faith to be saved. Even Abraham had faith to salvation. When Jesus said "It is finished" what did He mean? Also, when He asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do, who was He talking about? Not Israel. They knew exactly what they were doing. He was praying for the non-Jewish Gentile Romans who crucified Him, who were just doing their job, and had no idea who He was.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8–9.

Saul wrote this letter to Jews and Jewish believers of The Way in Ephesus around AD 60-62. He was in prison at the time. But in AD 30-33 Jesus died on the cross. Saul's letter to Ephesus was written around 30 years later. Now tell me, When Jesus was on the cross and He said, "It is finished!" and died did Jesus save anyone that day? If you add to the Bible that 30 years later, and for us two thousand years later, that "one must have faith in order to be saved", then you are saying that on the day Jesus died and from the cross He says, "It is Finished!" He saved no one on the day He died because it [salvation] doesn't become effective until one later exerts faith to be saved. That's YOUR position. And that position is not supported by the Bible.

There is something you are not understanding about Jesus, when you claim it is not sufficient. His death is eternal in scope. He saved every Old Testament Saint with His death. He led captive a host of captives. He took the Old Testament saints who were NOT in the kingdom, not in heaven, and took them to heaven because His death removed the sin that was only COVERED by the sacrifices. Anyone who had faith in God (prior to Jesus), and faith in Jesus (the disciples) had their state before God changed when Jesus died. The veil was torn in the temple to show the change in state. The red ribbon tied around the scapegoats neck that turned white... stopped turning white. The Mosaic Covenant sacrifices no longer worked. God no longer accepted them, and only accepted the work of His Son.

My position, however, is that on the day Jesus died He said, "It is Finished!" and then He died, and on that day He saved 'someone' that day. He didn't die to make salvation possible if one would later 'believe', no, He died on the cross and actually saved 'someone' the day He died. Who did He save?
He saved Israel.

That is not how it worked. You are too narrow in scope. Again, His death had eternal ramifications. Stop thinking temporal. Start thinking... God. All those who rejected the Messiah were not saved. They faced judgment for the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which was not an individual sin, but a national sin. Just as Adam's sin brought sin to all humanity, the sins of the religious leaders on that day damned the whole nation. Only those who did believe in Jesus as Messiah were saved from the judgment, and Josephus wrote about it. No believer in Christ was in Jerusalem for 70 AD for they ran away after the Romans surrounded Jerusalem the first time.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26–27.

Now, the question is, "Did God take away their sins (on the day Jesus died)", or did He take away their sins the moment one expresses faith in Jesus and becomes born-again?" which is what you believe.

That is the issue. You aren't viewing reality properly. It happens when one expresses faith in Jesus. That is our view, and how things happen. We are temporal. To God, He isn't existing today and you get saved and He sees you saved. He is eternal. The beginning and the end. It is all at once for Him.

You are very mistaken. All Jews knew Moses and the prophets never said anything about non-Hebrew Gentiles being circumcised let alone made inheritors of Abraham's Promises nor that they would be saved. And no Jew would ever circumcise a non-Hebrew Gentile or compel them to obey the Law of Moses. There is where you error begins. You take what God has Promised Abraham and his seed and insert Gentiles and confuse the issue. And you can't provide any Scripture that is in the Old Testament that says Gentiles would be circumcised and that salvation is of the Gentiles. Where does God or Jesus say that Gentiles would become saved, and heirs of the Abraham Promises.

You are mistaken. God's plan was that Israel was to be a nation of priests. (Or have you forgotten.) Who were they to serve as priests? The Gentile nations. Israel screwed that up (according to God's design). God told Eve that her seed would save the world. Not Israel, which did not exist, but the whole world. God chose to do that through Israel. Everything that Paul wrote about shows the logic of what God has done. Israel, the Jews, rejected the Messiah, and they are partially blinded until the fulness of the non-Hebrew Gentiles has come in, at which point, God will remove the partial blindness and Israel will be saved. He has bound ALL (Jews, non-Jewish Gentiles) in disobedience, that He might had mercy on ALL. Jesus is not a priest of Israel, but He is a priest. He is a priest of the line of Melchizedek, which is NOT Hebrew.

You can't produce any Scripture from the Hebrew Bible that Gentiles would have to be circumcised in order to be saved nor can you produce any Scripture in the Hebrew Bible that Gentiles would become saved, and heirs of the Abraham Promises.

No, I can only produce scripture where Paul says DON'T get circumised. I have also told you that non-Jewish Gentiles benefit from the promises of Abraham because Abraham received those promises from God by faith, and Gentiles enter into that promise (not the Abrahamic covenant) by the same faith.

You correctly say the Law of Moses was for Israel and that Gentiles are not nor have they ever been under the Law, and then you add Gentiles into the Jewish covenants by misinterpreting what Saul says about "one must have faith to be saved" when Jesus from His cross said, "It is Finished!" meaning that Israel is already saved as prophesied by the Prophets and Jesus Himself.

Saul lied? That's a new one, considering he wrote what God told Him to write. So did God lie? The prison guard asked Paul what he must do to be saved. Paul did not say, nothing, you are already saved. He said "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt [FUTURE TENSE] be saved..."

On top of that you say Gentiles were never under the Law but that one has to have faith in Jesus in order to be saved. By adding Gentiles into the Hebrew salvation, you teach Jesus changed the Law to include Gentiles when Jesus Himself said "I came not to destroy the Law" meaning the Law can't be changed nor added to on the whims of certain people.

That is true. What are you talking about Hebrew salvation for? That Law DAMNS. Have you read Galatians? All under the law are under a CURSE. Jesus became the curse that the world might be freed from the bondage of the Law. As it is written cursed is He who hangs on a tree... Jesus did not come to destroy the Law, but to FULFILL. What does that mean? Why did He come to fulfill the Law? Because no one else CAN. Anyone who puts themselves in the position of having to, damns themselves. Yet you would do that.

If the Law of Moses was only for the Jews and the yearly sacrifices of animals and their blood sprinkled on the people, on the book of the covenant and the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant, then when it came time for Jesus to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the children of Israel "once and for all" you add Gentiles in the salvation [that is] of the Jews by saying that only by faith can one be saved, thus nullifying Jesus' work on the cross when He said, "It is Finished!"

Could you give just ONE law, ONE LAW out of the 613 that says, this will save you. Just one. If you can't find one, then you have been disproven by God Himself. Even the Mosaic Covenant doesn't say that it will save them. It isn't for salvation. The covenant was to set them apart from the other nations of the world. It was also to make them priests for the whole world. A nation of priests. What good is a whole nation of priests if there are no nations to serve?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Paul said that the gift was salvation. The content of that gift is given in Ephesians 1, which says that we have an inheritance in Christ, and that the Holy Spirit indwelling us is the down payment (earnest) of our inheritance until we take physical (material) possession.

Romans 1:5 says that the apostles received grace and apostleship in order to bring about the obedience of faith in those to whom they minister. As for Matthew 5;16:
"16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
Nothing about the Torah.
We should walk the same way He walked. For Psalm 119, David was a Jew, and in fact the king of Israel. However, nothing about teaching.

That is NOT what Paul says in Galatians. He says the Law (Torah) brings death to all who would submit to it. He points to faith. The Law was simply a tutor to point the people to Christ their Messiah. To Peter, at the church council, the Law meant bondage, a bondage he told the church, that should not be upon the Gentiles. That does not mean the Law is ignored, but it is a Law unto death not life. It is impossible to keep the law.

However, only Jesus could and did keep those two laws. What happens if you fail to obey the two greatest commandments? Remember, Jesus said that ALL of the law falls under those two commandments. If you break one little law, you broke one of these two laws. Would that not mean death, which is the opposite of eternal life?

It was Paul, not James, who said they had to have perfect obedience. However, to put one's hope in the Torah is to not put one's faith in Yeshua.

Yes. It is also why God said that the nation of Israel was to be a nation of priests. Who was this nation of priests to serve, if not themselves? The Gentiles. However, they failed.

However, the church at Jerusalem told the Gentiles that that was not the case. They said, flee immorality and do not eat meat sacrificed to idols. (I believe there was one other). If they did these things, it would be well with them. Again, I am not saying we are to go out and sin our lives away, of course not. However, the we, as Paul says, are not to become bound to the Torah, or we will die under the Torah. (That death meaning, no salvation.) You do understand that there are 613 laws to be followed under to Torah, and that scripture has not said that any have expired or passed away, right? If you eat a pig, you broke the Torah and are thus shut out from the kingdom for failing to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, by following the Torah.

No. It requires us to follow Christ, as Paul taught. What did Paul tell the Galations that he brought to them. He sought to see them taught the cross, that is Christ and Christ crucified only. When the Judaizers came with the Torah, Paul was, well... rather miffed.
Galatians 1
"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [c]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed!"
Galatians 2
"Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 [a]It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. 3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage."

Galatians 3
"10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law [Torah] before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law [Torah] is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law [Torah], having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is Paul's main point. We do not follow the Torah, we follow Christ by faith. If we follow Christ truly in faith, we are in line with the spirit of the Law. However, to follow the Torah is to not follow Christ, but instead to be cursed.

To abide by all the things written in the book of the law is to rely on the works of the law. That is what you are putting your faith in, and Paul says that is wrong. Our faith is in Christ.

A text without context is a pretext. If you read what preceded in the passage in Galatians you will find:
"6 [j]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, [k]be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God [l]would justify the [m]Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with [n]Abraham, the believer."

Abraham did not have the Torah to follow. So, either 1. He actually went to hell/sheol and not paradise, though Jesus says Abraham was in Paradise, for not following the Torah which had not yet been written. or 2. God reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness.

I John 3
"4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

There is no mention of the Torah here. Since sin is lawlessness (Missing the standard of law), then everyone who practices sin, which is lawlessness, also practices lawlessness (by definition). If you keep the Torah, and sin, verse 6 says that you have neither seen Him or known Him. Understand practicing sin means a pattern of habitual sin that one is living in. To sin one moment, but not to be practicing a habitual pattern of sin is different.

God made promises to Abraham and extended those promises to his biological seed. God made promises to Isaac and extended those promises to his seed. God made promises to Jacob and extended those promises to his seed. God made promises to Jacob's twelve sons and their seed including the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.
That's basically what the Old Testament says.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Mosaic Covenant has nothing to do with salvation. It saves no one. Faith saves and that it how it has always been. Salvation by grace through faith.

He provided a way for Israel to be different from the nations around, and provide a way that they could be in right standing before Him, however, some still went to sheol/hell. That was Jesus issues with the pharisees who taught that all Jews enter the kingdom. All you have to do is read Zechariah, and see where God blatantly states that 2/3rds of Israel, during the judgment, are damned, and only 1/3 will enter the kingdom, purged and redeemed. There is a lot to it.

However, other scripture makes it clear that no all Israel will be saved, so one has to consider that since all is not always universal, what does scripture mean. It means, all of the remnant that belongs to God in Israel. And beyond that, I believe that when Jesus returns to save Israel, that the only ones left alive will be God's elect in Israel, so it really will be "all Israel".

There is a, you must believe the gospel. You understand that when God takes away their sins, it is because God reveals the truth to them, and they accept, right? They believe. Why? Jesus will personally visit His people, they will see Him, they will recognize Him, they will accept and believe in Him.

Abraham presented faith, and God credited his faith as righteousness. Don't you believe that his descendants would have to at least do that? I mean, Paul says as much in Romans his writings.

Sorry, that isn't how it worked. It was not at all written within the construct of the covenant, which is why that covenant, the Mosaic covenant, is dead and gone. That is why a new covenant. Paul already said that no one can keep the law, and anyone who tries is UNDER A CURSE. That curse is not entering the kingdom. Only Jesus kept the law, and that will always be true. (There are 613 laws...)

What he said was if they live by the law, they would die by the law. That is, they aren't saved. Israel is not automatically saved. Israel is saved just as the Gentiles are, however, their list of blessings and benefits is MUCH LARGER. The Abrahamic covenant still belongs to Israel, and will be fulfilled in the Messianic Kingdom.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

Context matter. Text without context is a pretext. The above that you mentioned is solely for those who fear God's name. What happens to the rest? They are burned up like stubble. And he is, according to you... and according to context... speaking to Israel, not the Gentiles.

Men must have faith to be saved. Even Abraham had faith to salvation. When Jesus said "It is finished" what did He mean? Also, when He asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do, who was He talking about? Not Israel. They knew exactly what they were doing. He was praying for the non-Jewish Gentile Romans who crucified Him, who were just doing their job, and had no idea who He was.

There is something you are not understanding about Jesus, when you claim it is not sufficient. His death is eternal in scope. He saved every Old Testament Saint with His death. He led captive a host of captives. He took the Old Testament saints who were NOT in the kingdom, not in heaven, and took them to heaven because His death removed the sin that was only COVERED by the sacrifices. Anyone who had faith in God (prior to Jesus), and faith in Jesus (the disciples) had their state before God changed when Jesus died. The veil was torn in the temple to show the change in state. The red ribbon tied around the scapegoats neck that turned white... stopped turning white. The Mosaic Covenant sacrifices no longer worked. God no longer accepted them, and only accepted the work of His Son.

That is not how it worked. You are too narrow in scope. Again, His death had eternal ramifications. Stop thinking temporal. Start thinking... God. All those who rejected the Messiah were not saved. They faced judgment for the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which was not an individual sin, but a national sin. Just as Adam's sin brought sin to all humanity, the sins of the religious leaders on that day damned the whole nation. Only those who did believe in Jesus as Messiah were saved from the judgment, and Josephus wrote about it. No believer in Christ was in Jerusalem for 70 AD for they ran away after the Romans surrounded Jerusalem the first time.

That is the issue. You aren't viewing reality properly. It happens when one expresses faith in Jesus. That is our view, and how things happen. We are temporal. To God, He isn't existing today and you get saved and He sees you saved. He is eternal. The beginning and the end. It is all at once for Him.

You are mistaken. God's plan was that Israel was to be a nation of priests. (Or have you forgotten.) Who were they to serve as priests? The Gentile nations. Israel screwed that up (according to God's design). God told Eve that her seed would save the world. Not Israel, which did not exist, but the whole world. God chose to do that through Israel. Everything that Paul wrote about shows the logic of what God has done. Israel, the Jews, rejected the Messiah, and they are partially blinded until the fulness of the non-Hebrew Gentiles has come in, at which point, God will remove the partial blindness and Israel will be saved. He has bound ALL (Jews, non-Jewish Gentiles) in disobedience, that He might had mercy on ALL. Jesus is not a priest of Israel, but He is a priest. He is a priest of the line of Melchizedek, which is NOT Hebrew.

No, I can only produce scripture where Paul says DON'T get circumised. I have also told you that non-Jewish Gentiles benefit from the promises of Abraham because Abraham received those promises from God by faith, and Gentiles enter into that promise (not the Abrahamic covenant) by the same faith.

Saul lied? That's a new one, considering he wrote what God told Him to write. So did God lie? The prison guard asked Paul what he must do to be saved. Paul did not say, nothing, you are already saved. He said "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt [FUTURE TENSE] be saved..."

That is true. What are you talking about Hebrew salvation for? That Law DAMNS. Have you read Galatians? All under the law are under a CURSE. Jesus became the curse that the world might be freed from the bondage of the Law. As it is written cursed is He who hangs on a tree... Jesus did not come to destroy the Law, but to FULFILL. What does that mean? Why did He come to fulfill the Law? Because no one else CAN. Anyone who puts themselves in the position of having to, damns themselves. Yet you would do that.

Could you give just ONE law, ONE LAW out of the 613 that says, this will save you. Just one. If you can't find one, then you have been disproven by God Himself. Even the Mosaic Covenant doesn't say that it will save them. It isn't for salvation. The covenant was to set them apart from the other nations of the world. It was also to make them priests for the whole world. A nation of priests. What good is a whole nation of priests if there are no nations to serve?

The Ceremonial Law has everything to do with salvation and the forgiveness of sins. Israel's sins.

 

[armylngst]

God made promises to Abraham and extended those promises to his biological seed. God made promises to Isaac and extended those promises to his seed. God made promises to Jacob and extended those promises to his seed. God made promises to Jacob's twelve sons and their seed including the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.
That's basically what the Old Testament says.

God made promises to Abraham and extended them to all mankind. The covenant deals with his descendants, the promise made after he was to sacrifice Isaac was extended to all the nations of the world. (I believe that is a Jewish idiom, so you might want to make sure you are properly interpreting that... in that it means the whole world, and not the Jewish people. It doesn't have to mean just the Jewish people, because all of this was already to the Jews in the Abrahamic covenant.) God promised SALVATION to the whole world BECAUSE of the faith that Abraham showed. Again, this goes back to the Canaanite woman. The picture God has for the world in relation to what I just said is the puppy dogs eating the crumbs that fall from the table. That is the non-Hebrew Gentiles benefiting from the promises made to Abraham. I do not say covenant, because again, that was solely with Abraham. It wasn't even with Israel. It was with Abraham, but spoke to/of his descendants. As such, the sign of one being Abraham's descendant was circumcision. For instance, when those gentiles were circumcised and then slaughtered, it was considered a great sin. However, they were not lying when they said that that would make them family of sorts. They would be indentifying with Israel. Hence them saying it was a requirement before they could marry.

Again, the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the table. Those are the spiritual blessings promised to Abraham after he was to sacrifice Isaac. The sign of that promise was faith, specifically the faith Abraham showed. It is by faith that one is a spiritual descendant (not physical) of Abraham, and a partaker of that promise. (Not the covenant... the promise of salvation by faith.) Those non-Hebrew Gentiles would not be possessing the land of Canaan, because that belongs to ABRAHAM by covenant. And as such, belongs to His physical descendants, as a physical promise in covenant from God. You need to see the sharp distinction that exists between the Jews and the non-Hebrew Gentiles. Again, no person or organization has replaced Israel. However, there are those in Israel who are outside of the kingdom of God, and those who are in the kingdom of God as God's elect remnant. Paul speaks of them as those who are of Israel by the flesh, and those who are of Israel by the spirit. The circumcision of the flesh availeth nothing. It is the circumcision of the heart that makes the Jew a spiritual descendant of Abraham through Isaac, and not through Hagar/the LAW, which is physical/flesh. In this way, Paul is again saying that the Law does not provide salvation.

 

[armylngst]

The Ceremonial Law has everything to do with salvation and the forgiveness of sins. Israel's sins.

It has nothing to do with salvation. Even Paul said that the Law was a tutor that pointed to Christ, because salvation is in Christ, not the Law. Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace through faith. The only thing that has differed is the content of the faith. (I got that from a Messianic Jew.) Abraham did not have faith in Christ, because he had no idea about Christ. (Progressive revelation.) His faith was in God and that God would keep His promises no matter the situation. God promised Abraham many things through Isaac, and then said, now go sacrifice Isaac. In other words, no more Isaac, no more promises fulfilled. However, Abraham did not believe that. He believed that God would HAVE to raise Isaac again from the dead, because God PROMISED to do all these things through Isaac. That is how deep his faith was. He had absolute faith that God would do exactly what He promised, exactly AS HE promised. Abraham and Sarah actually having Isaac gave him a completely new outlook on God. To him, that was impossible, yet it happened exactly as God said it would. There were promises made that made Sarah laugh, because she believed it impossible.

The ceremonial law just pointed the way to Christ, and prior, to faith in God. Faith is always part of salvation, though the content, and how it presented itself may have differed, it was still faith. Faith was the reason why God dispatched Gabriel to Daniel before Daniel was even finished praying. God delighted in Daniel because of Daniel's faith.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul said that the gift was salvation. The content of that gift is given in Ephesians 1, which says that we have an inheritance in Christ, and that the Holy Spirit indwelling us is the down payment (earnest) of our inheritance until we take physical (material) possession.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of God's character traits in obedience to the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us the content of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, which is the inheritance that we have in Christ in accordance with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1:5 says that the apostles received grace and apostleship in order to bring about the obedience of faith in those to whom they minister. As for Matthew 5;16:
"16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
Nothing about the Torah.
We should walk the same way He walked.

Quoting those verses again supports how I used them. The Torah is God's instructions for how to do good works and in the context of one Jew speaking to other Jews about doing good works the only thing that they could be referring to is the Torah. In 2 Timothy 3:15-17, Paul referred to Scripture that Timothy had availed to him since childhood as being profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, and training in righteousness that the man of God might be thoroughly equipped to do every good work, and none of the books of the NT had been written at the time of Timothy's childhood, so Paul was primarily referring to the Torah. Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so walking in the same way that he walked straightforwardly involves following his example of obedience to the Torah.

For Psalm 119, David was a Jew, and in fact the king of Israel. However, nothing about teaching.

Psalms 119:29 Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!

That is NOT what Paul says in Galatians. He says the Law (Torah) brings death to all who would submit to it. He points to faith. The Law was simply a tutor to point the people to Christ their Messiah. To Peter, at the church council, the Law meant bondage, a bondage he told the church, that should not be upon the Gentiles. That does not mean the Law is ignored, but it is a Law unto death not life. It is impossible to keep the law.

Quote Galatians states that the Torah brings death to all who submit to it. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping brings life and a blessing while not keeping it brings death and a curse, so choose life! So the Torah was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is impossible to keep. If Peter had been referring to the Torah as being bondage that no one could bear, then he would have been denying the word of faith that we proclaim, he would have been in direct disagreement with God, and he would have been saying that Gentiles should choose death and a curse instead of life and a blessing. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep is commandments, so if Peter had been referring to the Torah as being bondage, then he would have been denying that God's commandment are not burdensome and denying that Gentiles should love God. Moreover the claim that is impossible to keep the law is also the claim that it is impossible to love God. If God had saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to the Torah, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Torah that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free.

Do you agree that these verses accurately describe the Torah?:

Psalms 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules[d] of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

However, only Jesus could and did keep those two laws. What happens if you fail to obey the two greatest commandments? Remember, Jesus said that ALL of the law falls under those two commandments. If you break one little law, you broke one of these two laws. Would that not mean death, which is the opposite of eternal life?

There are many examples of people who kept the Torah, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3 and Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14. The Bible repeatedly states that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so it is absurd to act like these verses are referring to a group of people of which no one is a member. The Torah came with instruction for what to do when someone sins, so someone breaks one law, then they can repent and can continue to be a doer of the Torah, which leads to eternal life.

It was Paul, not James, who said they had to have perfect obedience. However, to put one's hope in the Torah is to not put one's faith in Yeshua.

Neither Paul nor James said that we need to have perfect obedience. It is contradictory to think that we should put our hope in God's Word made flesh instead of in embodying God's Word. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are then same as those who kept faith in Jesus, so again we can't have faith in Jesus instead of in God's commandments.

Yes. It is also why God said that the nation of Israel was to be a nation of priests. Who was this nation of priests to serve, if not themselves? The Gentiles. However, they failed.

The good kings tended to live for much longer than than the evil kings did, so they were under a good king for a longer period of time than under an evil king even though there were more evil kings. This means that while they were far from perfect they were even farther from complete failure.

However, the church at Jerusalem told the Gentiles that that was not the case. They said, flee immorality and do not eat meat sacrificed to idols. (I believe there was one other). If they did these things, it would be well with them. Again, I am not saying we are to go out and sin our lives away, of course not. However, the we, as Paul says, are not to become bound to the Torah, or we will die under the Torah. (That death meaning, no salvation.) You do understand that there are 613 laws to be followed under to Torah, and that scripture has not said that any have expired or passed away, right? If you eat a pig, you broke the Torah and are thus shut out from the kingdom for failing to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, by following the Torah.

They ruled that Gentiles to not need to become circumcised in order to become saved as the result, so that is on the order taking verses that deny 2 and using it to argue against 1.

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list for mature believers or it does not, so it would be contradictory to treat it as being an exhaustive list in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being an non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). I'm not sure why you are acting like we can't repent.

No. It requires us to follow Christ, as Paul taught. What did Paul tell the Galations that he brought to them. He sought to see them taught the cross, that is Christ and Christ crucified only. When the Judaizers came with the Torah, Paul was, well... rather miffed.
Galatians 1
"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [c]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed!"
Galatians 2
"Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 [a]It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. 3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage."

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught baed on the Torah (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be intimidators of Paul as he is a Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). So both Christ and Paul taught to follow the Torah by word and by example, we can't follow them instead of following what they taught, and Galatians 1:6-8 should not be turned against the Gospel that they taught.

A text without context is a pretext. If you read what preceded in the passage in Galatians you will find:
"6 [j]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, [k]be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God [l]would justify the [m]Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with [n]Abraham, the believer."

Abraham did not have the Torah to follow. So, either 1. He actually went to hell/sheol and not paradise, though Jesus says Abraham was in Paradise, for not following the Torah which had not yet been written. or 2. God reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness.

Again, adding context supports how I used the verses. In Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 that called for our repentance and obedience to the Torah was in accordance with him being sent as he promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which was the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he obeyed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19), and that he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac because he obeyed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works by living in obedience to God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works (Romans 4:1-5).

The Hebrew word (yada) refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God's way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus experiencing embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that he has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to have an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children will give all these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth shall be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their hearts by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to posses. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, and because they did that. So both Abraham and Moses spread the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace by graciously teaching people to walk in God's way in obedience to the Torah.

The Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalm 119:1-3), and Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham then they would be doers of the same works as him (John 8:39), so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace.

Galatians 3
"10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law [Torah] before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law [Torah] is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law [Torah], having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is Paul's main point. We do not follow the Torah, we follow Christ by faith. If we follow Christ truly in faith, we are in line with the spirit of the Law. However, to follow the Torah is to not follow Christ, but instead to be cursed.

Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Torah such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it is important to discern which law he was referring to, and if you assume that he was always speaking about the Torah, then you are guaranteed to misinterpret him. I made an argument for why I think that the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to the Torah, so you are welcome to try to counter my argument by pointing out flaws in it, but simply inserting [Torah] into the verse does not counter my argument. In Roman 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds the Torah so it is contradictory to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah by faith instead of following the Torah and it is contradictory to also think that the Torah is not of faith.

To abide by all the things written in the book of the law is to rely on the works of the law. That is what you are putting your faith in, and Paul says that is wrong. Our faith is in Christ.

Please give support for your claim. It is contradictory to think that we should rely in God instead of on His instruction or to think that we should have faith in Christ instead of what he taught.

I John 3
"4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

There is no mention of the Torah here. Since sin is lawlessness (Missing the standard of law), then everyone who practices sin, which is lawlessness, also practices lawlessness (by definition). If you keep the Torah, and sin, verse 6 says that you have neither seen Him or known Him. Understand practicing sin means a pattern of habitual sin that one is living in. To sin one moment, but not to be practicing a habitual pattern of sin is different.

Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits such as with unrighteousness being sin and sin is the transgression of the Torah because it was given in order to graciously teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus by experiencing embodying His character traits. This is also why 1 John 2:6 says that those who say that they know Jesus but don't obey his commands are liars and why 1 John 3:4-6 says that those who continue practice sin have never seen nor known him. In Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is, so how else do you think that the Israelites knew how to do what is righteous or to refrain from doing what unrighteous not through the Torah?

 

[jeremiah1five]

God made promises to Abraham and extended them to all mankind. The covenant deals with his descendants, the promise made after he was to sacrifice Isaac was extended to all the nations of the world. (I believe that is a Jewish idiom, so you might want to make sure you are properly interpreting that... in that it means the whole world, and not the Jewish people. It doesn't have to mean just the Jewish people, because all of this was already to the Jews in the Abrahamic covenant.) God promised SALVATION to the whole world BECAUSE of the faith that Abraham showed. Again, this goes back to the Canaanite woman. The picture God has for the world in relation to what I just said is the puppy dogs eating the crumbs that fall from the table. That is the non-Hebrew Gentiles benefiting from the promises made to Abraham. I do not say covenant, because again, that was solely with Abraham. It wasn't even with Israel. It was with Abraham, but spoke to/of his descendants. As such, the sign of one being Abraham's descendant was circumcision. For instance, when those gentiles were circumcised and then slaughtered, it was considered a great sin. However, they were not lying when they said that that would make them family of sorts. They would be indentifying with Israel. Hence them saying it was a requirement before they could marry.

Again, the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the table. Those are the spiritual blessings promised to Abraham after he was to sacrifice Isaac. The sign of that promise was faith, specifically the faith Abraham showed. It is by faith that one is a spiritual descendant (not physical) of Abraham, and a partaker of that promise. (Not the covenant... the promise of salvation by faith.) Those non-Hebrew Gentiles would not be possessing the land of Canaan, because that belongs to ABRAHAM by covenant. And as such, belongs to His physical descendants, as a physical promise in covenant from God. You need to see the sharp distinction that exists between the Jews and the non-Hebrew Gentiles. Again, no person or organization has replaced Israel. However, there are those in Israel who are outside of the kingdom of God, and those who are in the kingdom of God as God's elect remnant. Paul speaks of them as those who are of Israel by the flesh, and those who are of Israel by the spirit. The circumcision of the flesh availeth nothing. It is the circumcision of the heart that makes the Jew a spiritual descendant of Abraham through Isaac, and not through Hagar/the LAW, which is physical/flesh. In this way, Paul is again saying that the Law does not provide salvation.

You are infected by a Constantinian Gentile theology that is full of false doctrine trying to pass itself off as legitimate and it is not.
Show me in the Old Testament God making covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles and tell me the name of the Gentile God makes covenant with so I can study those passages.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It has nothing to do with salvation. Even Paul said that the Law was a tutor that pointed to Christ, because salvation is in Christ, not the Law. Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace through faith. The only thing that has differed is the content of the faith. (I got that from a Messianic Jew.) Abraham did not have faith in Christ, because he had no idea about Christ. (Progressive revelation.) His faith was in God and that God would keep His promises no matter the situation. God promised Abraham many things through Isaac, and then said, now go sacrifice Isaac. In other words, no more Isaac, no more promises fulfilled. However, Abraham did not believe that. He believed that God would HAVE to raise Isaac again from the dead, because God PROMISED to do all these things through Isaac. That is how deep his faith was. He had absolute faith that God would do exactly what He promised, exactly AS HE promised. Abraham and Sarah actually having Isaac gave him a completely new outlook on God. To him, that was impossible, yet it happened exactly as God said it would. There were promises made that made Sarah laugh, because she believed it impossible.

The ceremonial law just pointed the way to Christ, and prior, to faith in God. Faith is always part of salvation, though the content, and how it presented itself may have differed, it was still faith. Faith was the reason why God dispatched Gabriel to Daniel before Daniel was even finished praying. God delighted in Daniel because of Daniel's faith.

On Israel's Holiest Day - Yom Kippur - the high priest would sacrifice an animal for the temporary atonement of Israel's sins for one year.
Until Jesus would come into the world and sacrifice Himself finally and eternally for the sins of the children of Israel. This is the New Covenant in His blood which is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ.
Christ did not die for Gentiles. The high priest never sacrificed any animal for Gentiles.

 

[armylngst]

You are infected by a Constantinian Gentile theology that is full of false doctrine trying to pass itself off as legitimate and it is not.
Show me in the Old Testament God making covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles and tell me the name of the Gentile God makes covenant with so I can study those passages.

So, can you show me where in scripture, a priest of the tribe of Levi showed up before Abraham to induct him into the Mosaic covenant? I mean, unlike the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant had very explicit requirements to join. That is, one had blood placed on their right ear lobe, their right thumb, and their right big toe. All kinds of rituals took place. So, exactly what passage of scripture shows this happening? When did Abraham receive the Law? What do you mean he didn't? Are you saying you made a huge hub dub over NOTHING?

How were people before Moses saved? Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, who not only was saved, but was a priest of the most holy God, etc. Did God ever get around to telling Eve that He lied in your Bible? I mean, the promise He made to Eve was universal.

Part of your issue is that you take words that a scholar can tell you exactly what they mean, and you basically say that they don't know what they are talking about. Even people who speak the language will tell you that is what it means. They have documentary evidence of how the word was used, and what it meant. However, you refuse to accept it because your beliefs, not reality, do not allow for it. Instead of searching out for how things STILL work, even with the PROPER interpretation, you change the Bible.

Again, I do not say I am dispensational, but my beliefs of Israel are along those lines. Gentiles and Jews are DISTINCT. It isn't two separate programs, but two separate groups that reach the final conclusion along two different paths. The vision of the final state is seen in the church, where both Jews and Gentiles are one before God. One Master, one Lord, one Savior, one God who is all in all, and one Spirit by which all believers, Jew and Gentile have access to God. That is why Peter reacted as he did when the non-Jewish Gentiles with Cornelius received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. There were Jews who served Rome militarily. They were MERCENARIES. Cornelius was NOT a mercenary, nor those with him. The Jews were a special case with the church, being the first to be put into the church. The non-Hebrew Gentiles were a special case in that they were not Jewish, and were added next. The Samaritans, one could say, are a special group because they are only part Jewish. The disciples of John were Jewish, but were still under the baptism of John the Baptist. The old into the new. The believers under John the Baptist's baptism, into the church by way of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I will tell you how those Old Testament Saints prior to Moses were saved. FAITH, just like Abraham.

 

[armylngst]

On Israel's Holiest Day - Yom Kippur - the high priest would sacrifice an animal for the temporary atonement of Israel's sins for one year.
Until Jesus would come into the world and sacrifice Himself finally and eternally for the sins of the children of Israel. This is the New Covenant in His blood which is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ.

Nowhere does it say it is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. Are you saying that Christ is flawed? Scripture is clear that the Mosaic covenant was flawed. Hence the need for a New Covenant. That is a completely SEPARATE new covenant. And, the priest of that covenant is NOT OF ISRAEL. That is to say, Jesus is the high priest in the line of Melchizedek, who we all know was not Jewish/Hebrew. He is not a priest of Levi, or the line of Aaron, whose lineage comes from death. Jesus is the eternal high priest, there is no death in his line. No one will replace Him due to death. With the priests in Israel, they die and someone takes their place. That is what the system was all about.

Christ did not die for Gentiles. The high priest never sacrificed any animal for Gentiles.

Again, Jesus is not a priest in the line of anyone in Israel. Jesus died for the whole world. Again, Jesus was only the Messiah to the Jews. He is the Savior to the Gentiles. And I'm sure Ruth had more than one animal sacrificed for her while she was staying with Naomi and was married to Boaz.

Also remember:
"1 Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, 2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. 3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord."

Ninevah was a Gentile city, not Jewish. So why would God send Jonah there to get them to repent and believe? A city of the Assyrians. Yet God sent Jonah, and accepted their repentance. They turned back afterwards, but even Jonah said the reason why he didn't want to go is because he knew they would repent, and he knew God would have mercy.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So, can you show me where in scripture, a priest of the tribe of Levi showed up before Abraham to induct him into the Mosaic covenant? I mean, unlike the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant had very explicit requirements to join. That is, one had blood placed on their right ear lobe, their right thumb, and their right big toe. All kinds of rituals took place. So, exactly what passage of scripture shows this happening? When did Abraham receive the Law? What do you mean he didn't? Are you saying you made a huge hub dub over NOTHING?

How were people before Moses saved? Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, who not only was saved, but was a priest of the most holy God, etc. Did God ever get around to telling Eve that He lied in your Bible? I mean, the promise He made to Eve was universal.

Part of your issue is that you take words that a scholar can tell you exactly what they mean, and you basically say that they don't know what they are talking about. Even people who speak the language will tell you that is what it means. They have documentary evidence of how the word was used, and what it meant. However, you refuse to accept it because your beliefs, not reality, do not allow for it. Instead of searching out for how things STILL work, even with the PROPER interpretation, you change the Bible.

Again, I do not say I am dispensational, but my beliefs of Israel are along those lines. Gentiles and Jews are DISTINCT. It isn't two separate programs, but two separate groups that reach the final conclusion along two different paths. The vision of the final state is seen in the church, where both Jews and Gentiles are one before God. One Master, one Lord, one Savior, one God who is all in all, and one Spirit by which all believers, Jew and Gentile have access to God. That is why Peter reacted as he did when the non-Jewish Gentiles with Cornelius received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. There were Jews who served Rome militarily. They were MERCENARIES. Cornelius was NOT a mercenary, nor those with him. The Jews were a special case with the church, being the first to be put into the church. The non-Hebrew Gentiles were a special case in that they were not Jewish, and were added next. The Samaritans, one could say, are a special group because they are only part Jewish. The disciples of John were Jewish, but were still under the baptism of John the Baptist. The old into the new. The believers under John the Baptist's baptism, into the church by way of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I will tell you how those Old Testament Saints prior to Moses were saved. FAITH, just like Abraham.

Abe didn't need a priest from Levi. He had God.

7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Genesis 15:7–21.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Nowhere does it say it is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. Are you saying that Christ is flawed? Scripture is clear that the Mosaic covenant was flawed. Hence the need for a New Covenant. That is a completely SEPARATE new covenant. And, the priest of that covenant is NOT OF ISRAEL. That is to say, Jesus is the high priest in the line of Melchizedek, who we all know was not Jewish/Hebrew. He is not a priest of Levi, or the line of Aaron, whose lineage comes from death. Jesus is the eternal high priest, there is no death in his line. No one will replace Him due to death. With the priests in Israel, they die and someone takes their place. That is what the system was all about.

Again, Jesus is not a priest in the line of anyone in Israel. Jesus died for the whole world. Again, Jesus was only the Messiah to the Jews. He is the Savior to the Gentiles. And I'm sure Ruth had more than one animal sacrificed for her while she was staying with Naomi and was married to Boaz.

Also remember:
"1 Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, 2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. 3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord."

Ninevah was a Gentile city, not Jewish. So why would God send Jonah there to get them to repent and believe? A city of the Assyrians. Yet God sent Jonah, and accepted their repentance. They turned back afterwards, but even Jonah said the reason why he didn't want to go is because he knew they would repent, and he knew God would have mercy.

The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Nowhere does it say it is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. Are you saying that Christ is flawed? Scripture is clear that the Mosaic covenant was flawed. Hence the need for a New Covenant. That is a completely SEPARATE new covenant. And, the priest of that covenant is NOT OF ISRAEL. That is to say, Jesus is the high priest in the line of Melchizedek, who we all know was not Jewish/Hebrew. He is not a priest of Levi, or the line of Aaron, whose lineage comes from death. Jesus is the eternal high priest, there is no death in his line. No one will replace Him due to death. With the priests in Israel, they die and someone takes their place. That is what the system was all about.

The Mosaic Covenant was not flawed. It performed exactly the way God deemed it. The New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah is between God and the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. There are no Gentiles mentioned or named in Jeremiah's prophecy. You are adding to the Bible things it does not say, such as the false theology that Gentiles are mentioned and named in the New Covenant prophecy by Jeremiah.
Let the reader investigate whether Jeremiah mentions Gentiles in his prophecy in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Again, Jesus is not a priest in the line of anyone in Israel. Jesus died for the whole world. Again, Jesus was only the Messiah to the Jews. He is the Savior to the Gentiles. And I'm sure Ruth had more than one animal sacrificed for her while she was staying with Naomi and was married to Boaz.

Jesus did not die for the whole world. That is a straight up lie from the pit of Gentile hell. The Bible does not teach Universalism in which all people born are saved - both Jew and Gentile. The Hebrew Scripture consists of the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. Nowhere did the high priest leave Israel and offer sacrifices to atone Gentiles for one year until the next Jewish Yom Kippur. Show me the Scripture that shows the high priest in Israel did this.

Also remember:
"1 Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, 2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. 3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord."

Ninevah was a Gentile city, not Jewish. So why would God send Jonah there to get them to repent and believe? A city of the Assyrians. Yet God sent Jonah, and accepted their repentance. They turned back afterwards, but even Jonah said the reason why he didn't want to go is because he knew they would repent, and he knew God would have mercy.

The repentance of Nineveh was not a true repentance to God since there was no sacrifices and offerings made, nor did the Ninevites remain repented for in two or three generations God destroyed Nineveh to the point that in order to locate where it was men have to DIG. In about 150 years Nahum prophesied the destruction of Nineveh and Persia at the hands of the Medes and the Babylonians in 612 BC. And Nineveh never rose up ever again. But Israel remains. God's people with whom God have made promises to have prevailed through the centuries to today. Nineveh is long gone and buried but the people of God remain.

 

[JesusFan]

The doctrine is unbiblical for sure.

its called Covenant theology, and those such as myself do hold to it, but there are differing views , as I am a reformed baptist who would see right now spiritual Israel is indeed the Church, Body of Christ made up of saved jews and gentiles, but that God still will deal and get national Israel prepared to meet Jesus at Second Coming thru and by the Great tribulation times , as all living jews at that time shall see Him and receive Him as messiah and Lord and usher in the Millennial reign of King Jesus