PSA in the early Christian church

[Pancho Frijoles]

Elusione della domanda.

There was no question to elude, Johann: non c’era nessuna domanda da eludere.

1. The belief of St John Chrysostom is mistaken, since any punishment he thought sinners deserved was not the punishment that Jesus took upon himself. So, no substitution has taken place.

2. The argument you presented about the infinite value of any suffering of Christ that denies the need of a full or equivalent substitution is also invalid, since if it was true, then a simple headache or a single thorn in the precious head of Jesus would have been enough to pay for the sins of men.

 

[Johann]

How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take


conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.

hope this helps !!!

J.

 

[Johann]

There was no question to elude, Johann: non c’era nessuna domanda da eludere.

1. The belief of St John Chrysostom is mistaken, since any punishment he thought sinners deserved was not the punishment that Jesus took upon himself. So, no substitution has taken place.

2. The argument you presented about the infinite value of any suffering of Christ that denies the need of a full or equivalent substitution is also invalid, since if it was true, then a simple headache or a single thorn in the precious head of Jesus would have been enough to pay for the sins of men.

You are a moralist friend.
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:4-6
4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

53:4 "griefs" The word literally means "sickness" (BDB 318, cf. Deut. 28:59,61), but is used in a much wider sense in Hebrew (Isa. 1:6; 6:10). This speaks of Jesus' substitutionary work (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21).

Many have tried to interpret this strophe and Isa. 53:5d as teaching that Jesus' death dealt with believers' sins and sicknesses, but this is to misinterpret the parallelism (cf. Ps. 103:3). "Sickness" is a Hebrew idiom for sin (cf. Isa. 1:5-6; Ps. 103:3). My favorite charismatic author, Gordon Fee, has written a powerful booklet on this issue entitled The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels.

SPECIAL TOPIC: HEALING

"bore. . .carried" These two VERBS are parallel.

bore ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Qal PERFECT, used of bearing one's guilt, Gen. 4:13; Lev. 5:1,17; 7:18; Num. 5:31; 14:34; Ezek. 14:10; 44:12, but it is also used of someone or some animal bearing another's guilt, cf. Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 14:33; Ezek. 4:4,5,6 and of the suffering Servant's redemptive ministry in Isa. 53:4
carried ‒ BDB 687, KB 741, Qal PERFECT; this is literally "bear a heavy load," it is used of the Servant in Isa. 53:4 and Isa. 53:11 (Qal IMPERFECT)
Notice the series of VERBS in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.

smitten by God, Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 645, KB 697, Hophal PARTICIPLE
afflicted (by God), Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 776, KB 853, Pual PARTICIPLE
pierced through for our transgressions, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal PARTICIPLE
crushed for our iniquities, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual PARTICIPLE
the chastening for our well being (no VERB) upon Him, Isa. 53:5
by His scourging we are healed, Isa. 53:5

This is the textual foundation for the doctrine of the vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

"Smitten of God" It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).

53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these VERBS.

pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal PARTICIPLE usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.
crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual PARTICIPLE; this VERB is used several times in Isaiah
Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal PARTICIPLE, "the heart of the contrite"
Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel IMPERFECT, "crushing My people"
Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual PARTICIPLE, "to be crushed"
Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel INFINITIVE CONSTRUCT, "to crush"
It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.

53:6 This is the OT counterpart to Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:12,15,18; 11:32; Gal. 3:22. This shows the terrible development of the Fall of Genesis 3 (cf. Gen. 6:5,11-12; Ps. 14:3; 143:2).

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE FALL OF MANKIND

"the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Everyone is potentially saved by Christ (cf. John 1:12,29; 3:16-17; 4:42; Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 Pet. 1:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Only willful unbelief keeps anyone from God.

Some commentators have tried to make a restrictive distinction between the "all" [twice] of Isa. 53:6 and "the many" of Isa. 53:11d and 12e. However, the parallelism of Rom. 5:18, "all" and "the many" of Isa. 5:19, clearly shows that they refer to the same group (i.e., fallen humanity made in the image and likeness of YHWH, Gen. 1:26-27).

53:6d
NASB, TEV  "fall on"
NKJV, NRSV, REB, Peshitta  "laid on"
NJB  "to bear on"
NET  "to attack"
JPSOA  "visited upon"
LXX  "gave him over to"
The MT has the VERB (BDB 803, KB 910, Hiphiil PERFECT) which can mean

cause to light upon (here)
cause one to entreat (KB 910, Hiphil #2)
interpose (cf. Isa. 53:12, Qal PARTICIPLE
attack or assail (NET, p. 1269, #10)

"For the transgression of my people" This phrase shows that the term "Servant" in this context cannot be national Israel. The Servant dies (cf. Isa. 8d) for Israel. The DSS have "of his people."

This song/poem has several rare and unusual VERBALS.

Isa. 52:15, "what had not been told" ‒ Pual PERFECT (BDB 707, KB 765)
Isa. 52:15, "they will understand" ‒ Hithpolel PERFECT (BDB 106, KB 122)
Isa. 53:4, "smitten" ‒ Hophal PARTICIPLE (BDB 645, KB 697)
Isa. 53:4, "afflicted" ‒ Pual PARTICIPLE (BDB 776, KB 853)
Isa. 53:5, "pierced" ‒ Poal PARTICIPLE (BDB 319, KB 320)
Isa. 53:5, "crushed" ‒ Pual PARTICIPLE (BDB 193, KB 221)
Isa. 53:7, "led" ‒ Hophal IMPERFECT (BDB 384, KB 383)
Isa. 53:8, "considered" ‒ Polel IMPERFECT (BDB 967, KB 1319)
53:9 This verse, 9a and 9b, which may be antithetical parallelism on the term "rich" (BDB 799, in line b), in this context refers to "the wicked" (BDB 957, line a). I think it is antithetical parallelism.

This verse describes so explicitly the crucifixion and burial of Jesus (cf. Matt. 27:38-59), as does Psalm 22.

SPECIAL TOPIC: HEBREW POETRY

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:10-12
10But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

53:10 "But the Lord was pleased

To crush Him, putting Him to grief"

Notice the agent and object of these VERBS.

YHWH was pleased (lit. "it was the will of" - BDB 342, KB 339, Qal PERFECT). This VERB means "to delight in" (cf. Isa. 58:2; 62:4) or "desire" (Isa. 55:11). It is even used of YHWH's pleasure to put someone to death in 1 Sam. 2:25. It is shocking to use a VERB like this in connection with the unfair, painful treatment of the righteous Servant. YHWH had a redemptive plan (see SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN)!
YHWH's will and purpose was "to crush" (Piel INFINITIVE CONSTRUCT, cf. Isa. 53:5) and "put to grief" (Hiphil PERFECT, BDB 317, KB 311). The VERB means "to make sick" (JPSOA) or "sore by hitting." There was a high and costly price to pay for human redemption! YHWH and His Servant paid it fully and freely (i.e., 2 Cor. 5:21)!

NASB  "If He would render Himself as a guilt offering"
NKJV, NRSV  "When You make His soul an offering for sin"
TEV  "His death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness"
NJB  "if he gives his life as a sin offering"
JPSOA  "if fhe made himself an offering for guilt"
Peshitta  "he laid down his life as an offering for sin"
REB  "who had given himself as a sacrifice for sin"
LXX  "If you give an offering for sin"
This phrase is so simple yet so profound. It involves

the will of YHWH
the will of the Servant
the sinful ones who chose to receive this guilt offering (implied)
This is the Hebrew theological concept of "corporality." It is illustrated by

the sacrificial system (Leviticus 1-7), but especially the Day of Atonement (cf. Leviticus 16)
the sin of Achan affecting the Israeli army (Joshua 7)
the clear explanation in Romans 5:12-21
another great example in 2 Cor. 5:21
One innocent One paid the price to set free all the guilty ones!

▣ "He will prolong His days" It is obvious that the Servant dies (cf. Isa. 53:8,9,12). Therefore, this verse must refer to life after death!

Notice all the things that YHWH will do for Him.

He will see His offspring (lit. "seed"), Isa. 53:10
He will prolong His days (this must refer to His afterlife), Isa. 53:10
the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand (i.e., YHWH's plan to restore fellowship with mankind), Isa. 53:10
He will see it and be satisfied, Isa. 53:11 (refers to YHWH's good pleasure [will]), Isa. 53:10e
He will justify the many, Isa. 53:11
allot Him a portion with the great, Isa. 53:12
He will divide the booty with the strong, Isa. 53:12
Poetry is always difficult to interpret. Some of these items are uncertain!

53:11
NASB  "He will see it"
NKJV, Peshitta  "He shall see the travail of His soul"
NRSV, NJB, REB  "he shall see light"
LXX, DSS  "to show him light"
The MT has "of the travail of his soul he shall see." Notice there is no "it," but it seems to refer to

"the anguish of His soul"
the JPSOA footnote suggests "it" refers to "the arm of the Lord from v. 1, which is also a FEMININE NOUN
the LXX and Dead Sea Scrolls have "lights" (NRSV, NJB). The MT does not have "it" (see NKJV). The UBS Text Project, p. 146, thinks "light" may have dropped out of the text (B rating)
▣ "By His knowledge" The NRSV has "he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge." The question is what "knowledge" seems to relate to

see His offspring (Isa. 53:10d)
prolong His life (Isa. 53:10e)
prospering of YHWH's will (Isa. 53:10f)
results of His anguish (Isa. 53:11a)
▣ "the Righteous One. . .justify" These are both formed from one root (BDB 842, 843). YHWH's sin-bearing (cf. Isa. 53:11e) Servant will accomplish righteousness for all who believe and receive (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13).

▣ "the many" See note at "all" of Isa. 53:6.

▣ "He will bear their iniquities" The same VERB (BDB 687, KB 741, Qal IMPERFECT) was also used in Isa. 53:4. See note there.

53:12a,b "He will divide the booty with the strong" This is war imagery of victory. It is not to be taken literally, but figuratively of spiritual victory (cf. Isa. 52:13)!

▣ "He poured out Himself to death" This VERB (BDB 788, KB 881, Hiphil PERFECT) is literally "be naked" or "be bare" or "to empty." It is used in Isaiah in several senses.

to uncover a weapon, Isa. 22:6
for the Spirit being given (i.e., poured out), Isa. 32:15
BDB calls it a metaphor in this text reflecting the Piel usage #3 (cf. Ps. 141:8)
KB calls it "to tip out," a metaphor "to throw away one life to death"
▣ "And was numbered with the transgressors" Luke 22:37 quotes this verse as being spoken by Jesus in Gethsemane when the soldiers and guards came to arrest Him.

Notice the same word (BDB 833) was used of Israel's sin in Isa. 53:8 and all humans' sin in Isa. 53:5.

"He Himself bore the sin of many" This is the doctrine of substitutionary, vicarious atonement (cf. Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45; 14:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 1:4; 1 Tim. 2:6; Titus 2:14; 1 John 2:2). The UBS Text Project thinks "sin" should be PLURAL (B rating).

"And interceded for the transgressors" And He still does (cf. Rom. 8:27,34; Heb. 7:25; 9:24; 1 John 2:1)!

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

This is a study guide commentary, which means that you are responsible for your own interpretation of the Bible. Each of us must walk in the light we have. You, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit are priority in interpretation. You must not relinquish this to a commentator.

These discussion questions are provided to help you think through the major issues of this section of the book. They are meant to be thought-provoking, not definitive.

Does the title "My Servant" refer to the Jews or the Messiah?
Why are the numerous references to the Gentiles' inclusion so significant in this passage?
Why did God choose the Jews?
Why did the Servant suffer?
Why was God pleased to crush Him?
What does Isa. 53:6 say about sin?
Why has this passage been so influential on the church?

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE SANHEDRIN

Sanhedrin -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

J.

 

[Johann]

ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:4 borne . . . carried. Cf. vv. 11–12. Even though the verbs
are past tense, they predict happenings future to Isaiah’s time, i.e., “prophetic
perfects” in Hebrew here and elsewhere in this Servant-song. Isaiah was saying
that the Messiah would bear the consequences of the sins of men, namely the
griefs and sorrows of life, though incredibly the Jews who watched him die
thought he was being punished by God for his own sins. Matthew found an
analogical fulfillment of these words in Jesus’ healing ministry (see notes on
Matt. 8:16–17), because sickness results from sin for which the Servant paid
with his life (Isa. 53:7–8; cf. 1 Pet. 2:24). In eternity, all sickness will be
removed, so ultimately it is included in the benefits of the atonement.
ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:5 wounded for our transgressions . . . crushed for our
iniquities. This verse is filled with the language of substitution.

The Servant
suffered not for his own sin, since he was sinless (cf. Heb. 4:15; 7:26), but as the
substitute for sinners. The emphasis here is on Christ being the substitute
recipient of God’s wrath on sinners (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 1:3–4; Heb. 10:9–10).
chastisement that brought us peace. He suffered the chastisement of God in
order to procure our peace with God. with his stripes we are healed. The stripe
(the Hebrew noun is singular) that caused his death has brought salvation to
those for whose sins he died. Peter confirms this in 1 Pet. 2:24.
ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:6 All we . . . every one . . . us all. Every person has sinned
(Rom. 3:9, 23), but the Servant has sufficiently shouldered the consequences of
sin and the righteous wrath deserved by sinners (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5–6; 4:10; 1 John
2:2). The manner in which God laid our iniquity on him was that God treated
him as if he had committed every sin ever committed by every person who
would ever believe, though he was perfectly innocent of any sin. God did so to
him, so that wrath being spent and justice satisfied, God could then give to the
account of sinners who believe, the righteousness of Christ, treating them as if
they had done only the righteous acts of Christ. In both cases, this is substitution.
See notes on 2 Cor. 5:21.
ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:7–8 This is the portion of Scripture read by the Ethiopian
eunuch and subsequently explained to him by Philip as referring to Jesus (Acts
8:32–33).
ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:7 opened not his mouth. The Servant will utter no protest
and will be utterly submissive to those who oppress him. Jesus fulfilled this
(Matt. 26:63; 27:12–14; Mark 14:61; 15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9; 1 Pet. 2:23).
lamb . . . led to the slaughter. The Servant was to assume the role of a
sacrificial lamb (Ex. 12:3, 6). Jesus fulfilled this figurative role literally (John
1:29; 1 Pet. 1:18–19; Rev. 5:6).
ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:8 cut off . . . for the transgression of my people? The
Servant lost his life to be the substitute object of wrath in the place of the Jews,
who by that substitution will receive salvation and the righteousness of God
imputed to them. Similar terminology applies to the Messiah in Dan. 9:26.
ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:9 with the wicked . . . with a rich man. Because of his
disgraceful death, the Jews intended the Servant to have a disgraceful burial
along with the thieves (cf. John 19:31), but instead he was buried with “a rich
man” in an honorable burial through the donated tomb of Joseph of Arimathea
(Matt. 27:57–60; Mark 15:42–46; Luke 23:50–53; John 19:38–40). no violence .
. . deceit. The Servant’s innocence meant that his execution was totally
undeserved. Peter notes the fulfillment of this in 1 Pet. 2:22.
ISAIAH—NOTE ON 53:10 it was the will of the Lord. Though the Servant did not
deserve to die, it was the Lord’s will for him to do so (Matt. 26:39; Luke 22:42;
John 12:27; Acts 2:23). an offering for guilt. Fulfilled by the Servant as the
Lamb of God (Isa. 53:7; John 1:29). Christ is the Christian’s Passover (1 Cor.
5:7). This conclusively eliminates the error that Christ’s atonement provides
present-day healing for those who pray in faith. His death was an atonement for
sin, not sickness. See note on Isa. 53:4. see his offspring . . . prolong his days.
To see his offspring, the Servant must rise from the dead. He will do this and live
to reign forever (2 Sam. 7:13, 16; Ps. 21:4; 89:4; 132:12).

Marvel at what Messiah endured on that Cross for the whole human race and leave your moralism at the back door @Pancho Frijoles.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are a moralist friend.
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:4-6
4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

53:4 "griefs" The word literally means "sickness" (BDB 318, cf. Deut. 28:59,61), but is used in a much wider sense in Hebrew (Isa. 1:6; 6:10). This speaks of Jesus' substitutionary work (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21).

Many have tried to interpret this strophe and Isa. 53:5d as teaching that Jesus' death dealt with believers' sins and sicknesses, but this is to misinterpret the parallelism (cf. Ps. 103:3). "Sickness" is a Hebrew idiom for sin (cf. Isa. 1:5-6; Ps. 103:3). My favorite charismatic author, Gordon Fee, has written a powerful booklet on this issue entitled The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels.

SPECIAL TOPIC: HEALING

"bore. . .carried" These two VERBS are parallel.

bore ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Qal PERFECT, used of bearing one's guilt, Gen. 4:13; Lev. 5:1,17; 7:18; Num. 5:31; 14:34; Ezek. 14:10; 44:12, but it is also used of someone or some animal bearing another's guilt, cf. Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 14:33; Ezek. 4:4,5,6 and of the suffering Servant's redemptive ministry in Isa. 53:4
carried ‒ BDB 687, KB 741, Qal PERFECT; this is literally "bear a heavy load," it is used of the Servant in Isa. 53:4 and Isa. 53:11 (Qal IMPERFECT)
Notice the series of VERBS in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.

smitten by God, Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 645, KB 697, Hophal PARTICIPLE
afflicted (by God), Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 776, KB 853, Pual PARTICIPLE
pierced through for our transgressions, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal PARTICIPLE
crushed for our iniquities, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual PARTICIPLE
the chastening for our well being (no VERB) upon Him, Isa. 53:5
by His scourging we are healed, Isa. 53:5

This is the textual foundation for the doctrine of the vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

"Smitten of God" It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).

53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these VERBS.

pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal PARTICIPLE usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.
crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual PARTICIPLE; this VERB is used several times in Isaiah
Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal PARTICIPLE, "the heart of the contrite"
Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel IMPERFECT, "crushing My people"
Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual PARTICIPLE, "to be crushed"
Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel INFINITIVE CONSTRUCT, "to crush"
It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.

53:6 This is the OT counterpart to Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:12,15,18; 11:32; Gal. 3:22. This shows the terrible development of the Fall of Genesis 3 (cf. Gen. 6:5,11-12; Ps. 14:3; 143:2).

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE FALL OF MANKIND

"the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Everyone is potentially saved by Christ (cf. John 1:12,29; 3:16-17; 4:42; Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 Pet. 1:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Only willful unbelief keeps anyone from God.

Some commentators have tried to make a restrictive distinction between the "all" [twice] of Isa. 53:6 and "the many" of Isa. 53:11d and 12e. However, the parallelism of Rom. 5:18, "all" and "the many" of Isa. 5:19, clearly shows that they refer to the same group (i.e., fallen humanity made in the image and likeness of YHWH, Gen. 1:26-27).

53:6d
NASB, TEV  "fall on"
NKJV, NRSV, REB, Peshitta  "laid on"
NJB  "to bear on"
NET  "to attack"
JPSOA  "visited upon"
LXX  "gave him over to"
The MT has the VERB (BDB 803, KB 910, Hiphiil PERFECT) which can mean

cause to light upon (here)
cause one to entreat (KB 910, Hiphil #2)
interpose (cf. Isa. 53:12, Qal PARTICIPLE
attack or assail (NET, p. 1269, #10)

"For the transgression of my people" This phrase shows that the term "Servant" in this context cannot be national Israel. The Servant dies (cf. Isa. 8d) for Israel. The DSS have "of his people."

This song/poem has several rare and unusual VERBALS.

Isa. 52:15, "what had not been told" ‒ Pual PERFECT (BDB 707, KB 765)
Isa. 52:15, "they will understand" ‒ Hithpolel PERFECT (BDB 106, KB 122)
Isa. 53:4, "smitten" ‒ Hophal PARTICIPLE (BDB 645, KB 697)
Isa. 53:4, "afflicted" ‒ Pual PARTICIPLE (BDB 776, KB 853)
Isa. 53:5, "pierced" ‒ Poal PARTICIPLE (BDB 319, KB 320)
Isa. 53:5, "crushed" ‒ Pual PARTICIPLE (BDB 193, KB 221)
Isa. 53:7, "led" ‒ Hophal IMPERFECT (BDB 384, KB 383)
Isa. 53:8, "considered" ‒ Polel IMPERFECT (BDB 967, KB 1319)
53:9 This verse, 9a and 9b, which may be antithetical parallelism on the term "rich" (BDB 799, in line b), in this context refers to "the wicked" (BDB 957, line a). I think it is antithetical parallelism.

This verse describes so explicitly the crucifixion and burial of Jesus (cf. Matt. 27:38-59), as does Psalm 22.

SPECIAL TOPIC: HEBREW POETRY

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:10-12
10But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

53:10 "But the Lord was pleased

To crush Him, putting Him to grief"

Notice the agent and object of these VERBS.

YHWH was pleased (lit. "it was the will of" - BDB 342, KB 339, Qal PERFECT). This VERB means "to delight in" (cf. Isa. 58:2; 62:4) or "desire" (Isa. 55:11). It is even used of YHWH's pleasure to put someone to death in 1 Sam. 2:25. It is shocking to use a VERB like this in connection with the unfair, painful treatment of the righteous Servant. YHWH had a redemptive plan (see SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN)!
YHWH's will and purpose was "to crush" (Piel INFINITIVE CONSTRUCT, cf. Isa. 53:5) and "put to grief" (Hiphil PERFECT, BDB 317, KB 311). The VERB means "to make sick" (JPSOA) or "sore by hitting." There was a high and costly price to pay for human redemption! YHWH and His Servant paid it fully and freely (i.e., 2 Cor. 5:21)!

NASB  "If He would render Himself as a guilt offering"
NKJV, NRSV  "When You make His soul an offering for sin"
TEV  "His death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness"
NJB  "if he gives his life as a sin offering"
JPSOA  "if fhe made himself an offering for guilt"
Peshitta  "he laid down his life as an offering for sin"
REB  "who had given himself as a sacrifice for sin"
LXX  "If you give an offering for sin"
This phrase is so simple yet so profound. It involves

the will of YHWH
the will of the Servant
the sinful ones who chose to receive this guilt offering (implied)
This is the Hebrew theological concept of "corporality." It is illustrated by

the sacrificial system (Leviticus 1-7), but especially the Day of Atonement (cf. Leviticus 16)
the sin of Achan affecting the Israeli army (Joshua 7)
the clear explanation in Romans 5:12-21
another great example in 2 Cor. 5:21
One innocent One paid the price to set free all the guilty ones!

▣ "He will prolong His days" It is obvious that the Servant dies (cf. Isa. 53:8,9,12). Therefore, this verse must refer to life after death!

Notice all the things that YHWH will do for Him.

He will see His offspring (lit. "seed"), Isa. 53:10
He will prolong His days (this must refer to His afterlife), Isa. 53:10
the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand (i.e., YHWH's plan to restore fellowship with mankind), Isa. 53:10
He will see it and be satisfied, Isa. 53:11 (refers to YHWH's good pleasure [will]), Isa. 53:10e
He will justify the many, Isa. 53:11
allot Him a portion with the great, Isa. 53:12
He will divide the booty with the strong, Isa. 53:12
Poetry is always difficult to interpret. Some of these items are uncertain!

53:11
NASB  "He will see it"
NKJV, Peshitta  "He shall see the travail of His soul"
NRSV, NJB, REB  "he shall see light"
LXX, DSS  "to show him light"
The MT has "of the travail of his soul he shall see." Notice there is no "it," but it seems to refer to

"the anguish of His soul"
the JPSOA footnote suggests "it" refers to "the arm of the Lord from v. 1, which is also a FEMININE NOUN
the LXX and Dead Sea Scrolls have "lights" (NRSV, NJB). The MT does not have "it" (see NKJV). The UBS Text Project, p. 146, thinks "light" may have dropped out of the text (B rating)
▣ "By His knowledge" The NRSV has "he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge." The question is what "knowledge" seems to relate to

see His offspring (Isa. 53:10d)
prolong His life (Isa. 53:10e)
prospering of YHWH's will (Isa. 53:10f)
results of His anguish (Isa. 53:11a)
▣ "the Righteous One. . .justify" These are both formed from one root (BDB 842, 843). YHWH's sin-bearing (cf. Isa. 53:11e) Servant will accomplish righteousness for all who believe and receive (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13).

▣ "the many" See note at "all" of Isa. 53:6.

▣ "He will bear their iniquities" The same VERB (BDB 687, KB 741, Qal IMPERFECT) was also used in Isa. 53:4. See note there.

53:12a,b "He will divide the booty with the strong" This is war imagery of victory. It is not to be taken literally, but figuratively of spiritual victory (cf. Isa. 52:13)!

▣ "He poured out Himself to death" This VERB (BDB 788, KB 881, Hiphil PERFECT) is literally "be naked" or "be bare" or "to empty." It is used in Isaiah in several senses.

to uncover a weapon, Isa. 22:6
for the Spirit being given (i.e., poured out), Isa. 32:15
BDB calls it a metaphor in this text reflecting the Piel usage #3 (cf. Ps. 141:8)
KB calls it "to tip out," a metaphor "to throw away one life to death"
▣ "And was numbered with the transgressors" Luke 22:37 quotes this verse as being spoken by Jesus in Gethsemane when the soldiers and guards came to arrest Him.

Notice the same word (BDB 833) was used of Israel's sin in Isa. 53:8 and all humans' sin in Isa. 53:5.

"He Himself bore the sin of many" This is the doctrine of substitutionary, vicarious atonement (cf. Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45; 14:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 1:4; 1 Tim. 2:6; Titus 2:14; 1 John 2:2). The UBS Text Project thinks "sin" should be PLURAL (B rating).

"And interceded for the transgressors" And He still does (cf. Rom. 8:27,34; Heb. 7:25; 9:24; 1 John 2:1)!

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

This is a study guide commentary, which means that you are responsible for your own interpretation of the Bible. Each of us must walk in the light we have. You, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit are priority in interpretation. You must not relinquish this to a commentator.

These discussion questions are provided to help you think through the major issues of this section of the book. They are meant to be thought-provoking, not definitive.

Does the title "My Servant" refer to the Jews or the Messiah?
Why are the numerous references to the Gentiles' inclusion so significant in this passage?
Why did God choose the Jews?
Why did the Servant suffer?
Why was God pleased to crush Him?
What does Isa. 53:6 say about sin?
Why has this passage been so influential on the church?

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE SANHEDRIN

Sanhedrin -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

J.

Hi Johann:
If you want to be read in a Forum, I respectfuly recommend to write shorter posts. I’ll try to be concise now:

• No Jew has ever believed in the need of a vicarious atonement. That includes David, a Jew.
• No Jew has ever thought that the Messiah to come was needed to atone for their sins. That includes Isaiah, a Jew.
• No Jew has ever demanded another Jew to believe in PSA as a condition to forgiveness. That includes Jesus, a Jew

 

[Johann]

• No Jew has ever believed in the need of a vicarious atonement. That includes David, a Jew.
• No Jew has ever thought that the Messiah to come was needed to atone for their sins. That includes Isaiah, a Jew.
• No Jew has ever demanded another Jew to believe in PSA as a condition to forgiveness. That includes Jesus, a Jew

Error.

Your first point: "No Jew has ever believed in the need of a vicarious atonement."

This is not accurate according to the Old Testament.

From the very beginning, God taught Israel that forgiveness required a substitutionary sacrifice.

The entire Levitical system-- especially on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur, Leviticus 16)-- was built on the idea that an animal's blood was shed in place of the sinner.
Leviticus 17:11 says,

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life."

Key truth--

Atonement was substitutionary — the innocent bore the penalty of the guilty.

Jews in the Old Covenant absolutely believed in vicarious (substitutionary) atonement through the sacrificial system.

Second point--"No Jew has ever thought that the Messiah to come was needed to atone for their sins."

Here it needs care -- some Jewish groups before Jesus did expect the Messiah to suffer.
Isaiah 53 is central--See your contradiction?

"He was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities... the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5–6)

The earliest Christians (all Jews!) clearly understood Isaiah 53 as speaking of the Messiah’s atoning work —

And Jesus Himself interpreted His death this way:

"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)

Many later Jews rejected that view, but early faithful Jewish believers saw the Messiah’s mission as to atone.

Third point: "No Jew has ever demanded another Jew to believe in PSA as a condition to forgiveness."

It is true that forgiveness under the Old Covenant was based on repentance, faith, and offering the sacrifices God prescribed--
But when Jesus came, He taught and showed that true forgiveness was tied to believing in Him as the sacrifice.

John 1:29-- "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

John 8:24-- "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."



In Jesus’ new covenant, belief in His substitutionary death is essential for the full and final forgiveness God offers.



Ancient Judaism under Moses absolutely affirmed substitutionary atonement through animal sacrifices.

Isaiah and other prophets pointed to a suffering Servant who would bear sins.

Jesus taught that forgiveness now comes through faith in His blood, fulfilling everything the Old Covenant pointed toward.

The ancient rabbis used language of the Messiah being pierced, wounded, cut off, and slain.

They taught that the Messiah would bear the sins of the people -- suffering not for His own sake, but for Israel’s atonement.

They saw Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12, and Daniel 9 as speaking about Messianic suffering.

Later Jewish tradition only moved away from this under pressure to deny Christian claims -- but the early Jewish voices were much closer to the New Testament!


Jesus' death was not a surprise--
It was the fulfillment of God’s plan all along.
Even before Jesus was born, ancient Jews were looking for a suffering, atoning Messiah —
And Jesus is that perfect Lamb of God!

"He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5)


You would not understand, would you?
Your faith demands that the Cross, the death, and the resurrection of Christ are merely figurative — an "allegory," not a reality.

That is a radical departure from the Way, a departure from the true Faith once delivered to the saints,
and a complete redefinition of the Scriptures through the lens of the Baha'i teachings, not through the revelation of God in Christ.

Is this concise enough for you?

J.

 

[Dizerner]

Quality post there.

 

[civic]

Quality post there.

Mine usually are thanks

 

[Johann]

Quality post there.

Help me brother-and where I go wrong, please correct.

Johann.

 

[synergy]

Help me brother-and where I go wrong, please correct.

Johann.

Here is an excellent post from @civic that exposes how PSA has no place in the OT, nor in the NT for that matter:

Post in thread 'My full defense of PSA'

Jan 22, 2025

Was the cross a punishment God inflicted on Jesus? One verse that is used to teach that it was is Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, who is understood to be Messiah. This passage, then, is understood by the Church to be about the cross and the atonement. Let’s read it, first, in the New International Version, which is in agreement with most other English versions.

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer. (NIV)

Other versions have it similarly: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief”...

• civic

• 

 

[Johann]

Hi Johann:
If you want to be read in a Forum, I respectfuly recommend to write shorter posts. I’ll try to be concise now:

• No Jew has ever believed in the need of a vicarious atonement. That includes David, a Jew.
• No Jew has ever thought that the Messiah to come was needed to atone for their sins. That includes Isaiah, a Jew.
• No Jew has ever demanded another Jew to believe in PSA as a condition to forgiveness. That includes Jesus, a Jew

Error--


The motif of the blood is so strong, so central, and so important in the Pentateuch that it’s impossible to separate it from the motif of sacrifice and atonement for sins, which are interrelated.

The Pentateuch teaches that when someone sins, they must be put to death, or that someone or something else needs to take their place and die in their stead. But now, since there is no Temple, no sacrifices, and no priests, more and more modern rabbis refuse to recognize the importance and centrality of blood for the atonement and forgiveness of sins.

The radicals among them exaggerate and take it even farther. See the sayings of Rabbi Daniel Asor for example:“Christianity’s obsession on the subject of ‘atonement for sins’ through someone else’s pure blood, comes from the Pagan idolatry of ancient religions.”

Rabbi Asor found a creative way to avoid dealing with God’s demand in the Pentateuch, for a blood sacrifice as atonement for sins, by claiming that this is paganism and idolatry. If this is true, why did God demand it from the people of Israel in such a clear way?

BLOOD ATONEMENT IN THE BIBLE

On the eve of the Exodus from Egypt, it was the blood of an innocent Passover lamb, that was smeared on the doorposts and lintels that served as a sign for the angel of death. As it is written in Exodus 12:13: “The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt.”

In Exodus 24, when God made the covenant on Mt. Sinai with the People of Israel, the People of Israel went through purification by blood, and God’s covenant with the People was made with blood: “And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, ‘All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.’ And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, ‘Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.’” (Ex. 24:6-8)

Onkelos translation, the most important translation of the Pentateuch to Aramaic, which was used in the synagogues during the first centuries after Jesus, included the word “atonement” to Exodus 24:8: “And Moses took the blood and threw it on the altar for atonement for the People.”

In Exodus 30, the Day of Atonement is mentioned for the very first time in the Pentateuch: “Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD.” (Ex. 30:10)

Did you notice? This verse, which mentions the Day of Atonement for the first time, doesn’t mention anything in regards to prayer, to good deeds, to fasting or to charity. There is no doubt that these things are important and essential, but the Pentateuch only speaks about blood. Why? Because the atonement ceremonies, are strongly linked to blood. If we take away the blood, there is no sacrifice, no atonement, no forgiveness of sins.

JEWISH SAGES ACKNOWLEDGED THE IMPORTANCE OF BLOOD FOR ATONEMENT

In Leviticus 16, God explains to Moses how the sins of the People of Israel will be forgiven, by taking the blood which was offered at the altar, and sprinkling it on the Mercy Seat as atonement for the iniquities and sins of the People of Israel. Even the Sages recognized this.

Yalkut Shimoni says on Exodus 29: “There is no atonement but in the blood.”

In tractate Yoma 5a it says: “And he shall lay his hand… and it shall be accepted for him. Does the laying on of the hand make atonement for one? Does not atonement come through the blood?”

Rashi himself said: “There is no atonement without blood.”

The Sages also recognized this principle and repeated it in Zevachim 6; Minchot 93; Sifra 4, and more.

And yet, Rabbi Asor calls what God defined in the Pentateuch as the only way to receive atonement and forgiveness over sins as paganism and idolatry.

WHY IS BLOOD SACRIFICE ESSENTIAL?
The Book of Leviticus, the book which is dedicated in detail to the sacrifices and atonement for sins, talks about atonement 49 times! Each time, the context is always the blood sacrifices. Why blood is so important to God?
In Leviticus 17:10, God commands not to eat blood, and in the next verse, He explains why the blood is so important: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.” (Lev. 17:11)

According to Leviticus 5, even the poor, who had no money to buy an animal and sacrifice it, needed to bring fine flour to the high priest, and what did the high priest absorb the flour in? In the blood on the altar, and then sacrificed it. So what will happen if a rabbi comes and claims that the blood sacrifice is only one of the ways for forgiveness of sins, but not the only way?

Let’s quote again the words of Rabbi Asor: “There are various methods to obtain forgiveness of sins, like repentance, prayer and charity… Sacrifice offerings is the less preferred way.” Kinda what most here are doing, right?

Rabbi Asor contradicts himself, as he claimed at first that this is a pagan idolatry custom, but now, he is compromising by saying that it is possible to obtain forgiveness of sins through the offering of a sacrifice but that God is not really interested in that. The answer to this is simple, this is a modern excuse in order to hide the need for Jesus from us, the Messiah who’s blood was shed as a sacrifice for our sins.

The Jewish researcher, Professor Geza Vermes wrote: “According to Jewish theology, there can be no expiation without the shedding of blood.”

Also Professor Bruch Levin, in his commentary on Leviticus wrote: “Expiation by means of sacrificial blood-rites is a prerequisite for securing God’s forgiveness. As the rabbis expressed it, there is no ritual expiation except by means of blood.”

To conclude, Rabbi Asor and those like him, will prefer to contradict the Sages and even the Law of Moses, only so they won’t have to deal with God’s demand of blood for forgiveness of sins, and with the fact that Jesus the Messiah, He is the One who provided for this need.

Jesus is not only the Priest who offers a sacrifice for us, but He in Himself, is the High Priest, who shed His blood as a sacrifice for our sins, once and for all.

Is Blood Necessary for Atonement of Sins?

Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...

www.oneforisrael.org

Isaiah 53: About the People of Israel or Messiah of Israel?

Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...

www.oneforisrael.org

-is-it-israel-or-the-messiah-the-case-for-messiah/

 

[Johann]

Here is an excellent post from @civic that exposes how PSA has no place in the OT, nor in the NT for that matter:

Post in thread 'My full defense of PSA'

Jan 22, 2025

Was the cross a punishment God inflicted on Jesus? One verse that is used to teach that it was is Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, who is understood to be Messiah. This passage, then, is understood by the Church to be about the cross and the atonement. Let’s read it, first, in the New International Version, which is in agreement with most other English versions.

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer. (NIV)

Other versions have it similarly: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief”...

• civic

• 

I’m not concerned with what Civic is saying --
I care about what the Scriptures say.

J.

 

[civic]

Here is an excellent post from @civic that exposes how PSA has no place in the OT, nor in the NT for that matter:

Post in thread 'My full defense of PSA'

Jan 22, 2025

Was the cross a punishment God inflicted on Jesus? One verse that is used to teach that it was is Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, who is understood to be Messiah. This passage, then, is understood by the Church to be about the cross and the atonement. Let’s read it, first, in the New International Version, which is in agreement with most other English versions.

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer. (NIV)

Other versions have it similarly: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief”...

• civic

• 

Unfortunately many do not want to learn or be objective about their beliefs but are subjective and unwilling to consider they might be wrong.

 

[Dizerner]

Everything has been thoroughly responded to.

 

[civic]

I’m not concerned with what Civic is saying --
I care about what the Scriptures say.

J.

Its about Isaiah 53:10 and the misunderstanding of that passage.

And thats like saying we will not read what Johann posts all we care about is scripture.

 

[civic]

^ just gaslighting

you are great at it too.

 

[Dizerner]

you are great at it too.

No.

I'm not.

Next.

 

[civic]

No.

I'm not.

Next.

neither am I

next

 

[Dizerner]

neither am I

next

Yes you are.

Let's break your post down:

Unfortunately many do not want to learn

Nothing about any action I've ever done indicates "I don't want to learn." Literally nothing.

I've put more work into responding to every single objection most of which has gone completely unanswered or hand waved with a trivial "next" or a copy and paste or just a false assertion. That has not been how I have responded.

or be objective about their beliefs but are subjective

Nothing I've ever posted has indicated any lack of objectivity whatsoever. I'm in almost all cases more thorough than the one throwing out objections, and attempt to be fair and look at all sides.

and unwilling to consider they might be wrong.

Patently false. I have always been willing to consider where I am wrong except where I have received revelation from God concerning his Word. If you demand that level of skepticism you cannot even believe in Jesus or trust the Bible, because you always have to consider you might be wrong. You have demonstrated close to zero willingness to consider you might be deceived.

Everything you wrote was false gaslighting and a misrepresentation.

 

[civic]

Yes you are.

Let's break your post down:



Nothing about any action I've ever done indicates "I don't want to learn." Literally nothing.

I've put more work into responding to every single objection most of which has gone completely unanswered or hand waved with a trivial "next" or a copy and paste or just a false assertion. That has not been how I have responded.



Nothing I've ever posted has indicated any lack of objectivity whatsoever. I'm in almost all cases more thorough than the one throwing out objections, and attempt to be fair and look at all sides.



Patently false. I have always been willing to consider where I am wrong except where I have received revelation from God concerning his Word. If you demand that level of skepticism you cannot even believe in Jesus or trust the Bible, because you always have to consider you might be wrong. You have demonstrated close to zero willingness to consider you might be deceived.

Everything you wrote was false gaslighting and a misrepresentation.

Everything I’ve written on PSA is true exposing its errors.