Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He see's the past, the present, and the future all at the same time. A thousand years is like nothing to Jesus. Before time began, Jesus was God.
 
@FreeInChrist
You say "before Jesus was conceived and born, he was the God of Genesis 1:1
You are talking in circles again.
Not even close to talking in a circle, but speaking words of soberness and truth, that protect our Lord's Deity.
We, MOST, all agree that He was in Genesis 1:1 but Jesus was not His name. And MOST agree He was one of the ones in the "Let us make" verse
Not in Genesis 1:1, but was the Eternal God of Genesis 1:1, a huge difference. The burden of proof is on the Eternal Sonship folks to prove he was there, which they can never do, it is the blind follow the blind syndrome that the RCC Nicene Council of 325 produce (they came together to resolve theological disputes about the divinity of Jesus) to send into the world, instead of resolving the doctrine, they corrupted it. The seed of heresy was sowed into the world and has taken deep roots, even to a point, that most never consider the ramification of this heresy, they just blindly follow it as though it is the truth.

You said: "And MOST agree He was one of the ones in the "Let us make" verse"...............
I Know most do, but they cannot prove it. Us are the elect angels that were created in God's image, in holiness, spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding, just before man, they were created to be sent forth to ministered to God's elect.

Hebrews 1:14
"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"
Do you know the name that has been referred to as being in Gen 1:1 along with God YHWH? That one was called the Word.
AND BEFORE YOU GET ALL HYPER AND SAY WELL WORD IS NOT A NAME.

John tells us in 1:14.... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John talks of the Word, not the name Jesus, yet before conception they were instructed to name the baby Jesus..... ) So what is it about this word that became flesh and walked among us?
I know well what John 1:1 said and teaches.

John 1:1​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

I have already spent time on this verse earlier on in this thread, so I'll be short.

What did John mean by the beginning in his opening about the Word of God?

John used it here for the divine Word of God and also in 1st John 1:1,2; 2:13,14) It is before creation due to the Word creating all things by Himself (John 1:3). It therefore references eternity, the time (or lack thereof) before Genesis 1:1. The Word was not created, for He was in the very beginning before creation. Since the Word created all things (1:3), therefore He is Creator, not creature. If the Word gave being and existence to all things, He is independent of all. Since existence before creation is eternity, then Jesus Christ is eternal God.

Let us consider the English word ~ word ~ and its context here and elsewhere.

Word. I. Speech, utterance, verbal expression. Things said, or something said; speech, talk, discourse, utterance; report, tidings, news, information. II. An element of speech. A combination of vocal sounds, or one such sound, used in a language to express an idea and constituting an ultimate minimal element of speech having a meaning as such. [OED].

By its context, consider how the Word of God is a declaration or revelation. The heavens, part of all things, declares the glory of God (John 1:3; Psalms 19:1-6). The Word of God is the light of men by the eternal life He gives (John 1:4,5). He was the true Light that lights every man coming into the world (John 1:8). He was incarnated in man’s flesh for men to see; He revealed God (John 1:14). He brought grace and truth, totally unlike the word Moses brought (John 1:17). No man has ever seen God, but the incarnate Word declared Him (John 1:18). The eternal life with the Father, the Word of life, was manifested (1st John 1:2). The Word of God, with human nature as Jesus Christ, revealed God the Father. Jesus said no man could know the Father but by His revelation (Matthew 11;27). Jesus came to give men an understanding (the Word) of God (1st John 5:20).

"With God", simply mean part of God's nature as the Eternal God ~ the Godhead is ONE eternally DIVINE nature with no beginning, and no end.

The Word was God without any qualifications.

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Note very carefully that it was the Word, and not the Son, that is named here. The Word and the Son are not the same Being/Person without clarification. The Word became the Son by His incarnation in human flesh through Mary. The Son is dependent on both the Word and His human nature for existence. The Son was not made flesh, because the Son is flesh by His very existence.

This is an incredible event in all recorded history – Jehovah God became man. Remember from John 1:10 the Word was in the world and not known by it. All facts of human history recorded or studied in school pale in comparison. Why all the fuss about asinine nothing? … The Day the Earth Stood Still. Jesus Christ is also known as Emmanuel – God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23) . Jesus had a human body indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:7-9) God is a spirit. Jesus had a body. Jesus Christ is God, but God is not Jesus. The verse does not say that that the Son was made flesh, but the Word which was God was made flesh in the person Of Jesus of Narareth...The Word joined Himself to the tabernacle of God's Son and live in this world around 33 plus years over two thousand years ago.
So you still insist that this Son of God did not become such until Mary gave birth?
That's God's testimony of His Son recorded for us in Luke one, mainly, with tons of other scriptures proving the same.
the firstborn of every creature: (Again, this is Jesus who was the first born of every creature before he created creation.)
Firstborn describes the "preeminent position", regardless of any birth order (Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 11:17). Your added statement is not found in the scriptures.
This says that the very first thing that God did while being alone was to create Jesus.
You know that is blasphemy! Horribly unscriptural, that destroys Jesus Deity as God with those very words!

Revelation 1:7,8
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

You need to reconsider what you are reading and trusting in ~ that writer is badly deceived.
 
@Studyman
So, let me ask you this question: Why did the first church meet on the first day of the week? We never read of them saying anything concerning Sabbath day worship for Christians, never.

First of all, your little deception "concerning Sabbath day Worship" is subtle and cleaver no doubt. But a wickedness just the same. There was never any instruction in Scriptures to "Worship God's Sabbath", or "worship Passover" or "worship the resurrection". I am not a "Sabbath worshipper". I am not a "cross worshipper" or "an image of God after the likeness of some handsome long haired man", worshipper. I don't Worship "thou shall not Kill". I worship the God And Father of the Lord's Christ, who HE sent to be my Redeemer and Savior and this Jesus, "of the bible" instructs me to Live By the Words of His Father, and Worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth.


The "First Church of God" under His New High Priest, Honored and respected the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, concerning His Sabbaths, even in the most traumatic time of their lives, the murder of the prophesied Messiah they had waited for and placed their trust in. For you to preach that "We never read of them saying anything concerning Sabbath day worship", is true because there was never any instruction, ever in the entire Bible, that men should worship a "DAY", or a Statue, or a Cross, or a religion. There is nothing in any of my posts, even implying that a man should "Worship God's Sabbath". What foolishness.

The "First Church of God" under HIS New Priesthood observed the Passover, and honored and respected God in HIS Feast of Unleavened bread, including God's Holy Sabbaths on the First and Last day of the Feast. They most definitely honored and worshipped God in their submission to HIS Righteousness. This was necessary in order to know to "Count" the 7 Sabbaths, so as to be gathered on the Most Holy "Pentecost", another "Feast of the Lord" rejected by this world's religions. This obedience to God prompted God to share with them His Holy Spirit, AKA "The Spirit of Truth" that God gives to them that "Obey Him". The prince of darkness and it's little helpers, preach that the "First Church of God" under His New High Priest, the Lord's Christ, ignored and/or rejected God's Sabbaths. This is an insidious Lie furthered by the Promoters of this world's religious system.

And reflects the very reason why Jesus said to "Come out of" these religions, and why HE warned to "Take Heed" of the promoters of this world's religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and "Come in His Name".

Sadly, these undeniable Biblical Truths with have no influence on this world's "ministers of righteousness" at All, because they are not here to Seek God's Righteousness, Rather, they are here to Justify themselves, and promote their specific adopted religion that existed in the world God placed you in. (Calvinism, JW, Armenian, just a name a few, there are many more)

There is nothing wrong with having lunch, setting aside money, studying God's Word or fellowshipping on the 1st day of the week, or the 2nd day, or the 4th day. There is however, something wrong with rejecting a commandment, Judgment or statute of God, in order to promote and/or live by this world's popular religious traditions that Transgress God's Commandments, or to promote for doctrines the Commandments of men, according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

God's Sabbath was mentioned 55 times in the NT. The implication of your post, that there was no mention that faithful "doers" of the Christ Sayings, ( Who were called "Christians" twice in the Bible") rejected God's Sabbath day observance is simply a big fat falsehood. "Covet" was only mentioned 4 times, Steal was only mentioned 10 times. "Adultery" only 18 Times. Murder 5 Times. Kill 44 times.

The Jesus "of the Bible" even said to Live By Every Word of God. He himself is Lord, Even of the Sabbath.

Anyone who believes in the Jesus "of the Bible" will "Seek First the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness". Through the Holy Scriptures God's Righteousness will be revealed to them, included, but not limited to God's Holy 7th Day found in the very First 2 Chapters of the Bible, including who made it Holy. They will find it in the 4th Commandment of the !0 Commandments. They will find what Days God Esteemed above other days. They will find, as Jesus Himself said, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible", what to eat, what to drink, what philosophy to be clothed with.

Just because you and Constantine Don't believe in Jesus' or His Father's Words, doesn't make them wrong.
 
@Studyman
First of all, your little deception "concerning Sabbath day Worship" is subtle and cleaver no doubt. But a wickedness just the same. There was never any instruction in Scriptures to "Worship God's Sabbath", or "worship Passover" or "worship the resurrection". I am not a "Sabbath worshipper". I am not a "cross worshipper" or "an image of God after the likeness of some handsome long haired man", worshipper. I don't Worship "thou shall not Kill". I worship the God And Father of the Lord's Christ, who HE sent to be my Redeemer and Savior and this Jesus, "of the bible" instructs me to Live By the Words of His Father, and Worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth.
I know you believe this, I have heard it a hundred times over, almost word for word. But if you read my words carefully I never said or called you a Sabbath worshipper, I said clearly ~ "concerning Sabbath day Worship", or the day Christian set aside a day to worship God. Is it Saturday or Sunday ~ yet we all understand we truly worrship God 24/7 in truth and spirit, a constant walking and meditation on God, his word, etc. God rules in our hearts on every decision we we make, every words that flows from our lips are guarded in a way, so as to please God first and foremost. This is true worship for a child of God in a summarized in a few words.
The "First Church of God" under His New High Priest, Honored and respected the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, concerning His Sabbaths, even in the most traumatic time of their lives, the murder of the prophesied Messiah they had waited for and placed their trust in. For you to preach that "We never read of them saying anything concerning Sabbath day worship", is true because there was never any instruction, ever in the entire Bible, that men should worship a "DAY", or a Statue, or a Cross, or a religion. There is nothing in any of my posts, even implying that a man should "Worship God's Sabbath". What foolishness.
Read again what I just said to you and let it sink in if you can, which not sure you can, to be honest.
The "First Church of God" under HIS New Priesthood observed the Passover, and honored and respected God in HIS Feast of Unleavened bread, including God's Holy Sabbaths on the First and Last day of the Feast. They most definitely honored and worshipped God in their submission to HIS Righteousness. This was necessary in order to know to "Count" the 7 Sabbaths, so as to be gathered on the Most Holy "Pentecost", another "Feast of the Lord" rejected by this world's religions. This obedience to God prompted God to share with them His Holy Spirit, AKA "The Spirit of Truth" that God gives to them that "Obey Him". The prince of darkness and it's little helpers, preach that the "First Church of God" under His New High Priest, the Lord's Christ, ignored and/or rejected God's Sabbaths. This is an insidious Lie furthered by the Promoters of this world's religious system.
For now I will only say this those OT Feast, were a type of or shadow of good things to come. We do not observe the OT Passover, and other feast of the OT Jews' rellgion, which were shadow obviously, but different. In taking of the Lord's supper we do it in remembrance of Christ's body being broken for us and his life blood given to wash away our sins. No where are we commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath days, not eating certain meat, yet are told to not let any judge us because we refuse to keep the Jewish Sabbaths, etc.

Colossians 2:16​

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
There is nothing wrong with having lunch, setting aside money, studying God's Word or fellowshipping on the 1st day of the week, or the 2nd day, or the 4th day. There is however, something wrong with rejecting a commandment, Judgment or statute of God, in order to promote and/or live by this world's popular religious traditions that Transgress God's Commandments, or to promote for doctrines the Commandments of men, according to the Jesus "of the Bible".
True any day belongs to God, and is to be use to serve him, yet there is a reason why Paul said these words:

1 Corinthians 16:2​

“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.”

Let Seventh Day Adventists and all those who hold to their teachings without calling themselves by that name cavil and complain; they are heretical idolaters of Saturn’s Day. These simple people have been deceived by a neurotic woman named Ellen G. Harmon. She has convinced them Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and invention of Rome. All this was shown her by a vision of the fourth commandment highlighted in the ark! They (again, all who teach as they do) also are pagan vegetarians by the same ignorance and superstition (Colossians 2:16-19). The only mention of the Sabbath by Paul is to condemn its applicability (Colossians 2:16,17). The council at Jerusalem dealt with Gentiles, but ignored the Sabbath (Acts 15:22-29). Jesus showed Himself on the first day of the week and made it the Lord’s day (Revelation 1:10). The disciples of the New Testament churches met on Sunday for worship (Acts 20:7). Paul only used Saturday to preach to Jews and Gentile proselytes before conversion. The instruction of this text (1st Corinthians 16:2) proves clearly that Sunday was a holy time for the apostles. Paul included the churches of Galatia in this order, which applied Sunday to all churches.
God's Sabbath was mentioned 55 times in the NT. The implication of your post, that there was no mention that faithful "doers" of the Christ Sayings, ( Who were called "Christians" twice in the Bible") rejected God's Sabbath day observance is simply a big fat falsehood. "Covet" was only mentioned 4 times, Steal was only mentioned 10 times. "Adultery" only 18 Times. Murder 5 Times. Kill 44 times.
How many times in the Church epistles care to know? I can only think of one, and that one in its applicability for NT Christians! all are in the Gospel before Acts 2. There's a reason for this. NT Christian are not under the Jewish Sabbaths day. You cannot be both and be right!
Anyone who believes in the Jesus "of the Bible" will "Seek First the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness". Through the Holy Scriptures God's Righteousness will be revealed to them, included, but not limited to God's Holy 7th Day found in the very First 2 Chapters of the Bible, including who made it Holy. They will find it in the 4th Commandment of the !0 Commandments. They will find what Days God Esteemed above other days. They will find, as Jesus Himself said, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible", what to eat, what to drink, what philosophy to be clothed with.

Just because you and Constantine Don't believe in Jesus' or His Father's Words, doesn't make them wrong.
I have a post coming in a new thread on its own concerning these things. So, I'll wait to discuss this later.
 
@FreeInChrist

Not even close to talking in a circle, but speaking words of soberness and truth, that protect our Lord's Deity.

Not in Genesis 1:1, but was the Eternal God of Genesis 1:1, a huge difference. The burden of proof is on the Eternal Sonship folks to prove he was there, which they can never do, it is the blind follow the blind syndrome that the RCC Nicene Council of 325 produce (they came together to resolve theological disputes about the divinity of Jesus) to send into the world, instead of resolving the doctrine, they corrupted it. The seed of heresy was sowed into the world and has taken deep roots, even to a point, that most never consider the ramification of this heresy, they just blindly follow it as though it is the truth.

You said: "And MOST agree He was one of the ones in the "Let us make" verse"...............
I Know most do, but they cannot prove it. Us are the elect angels that were created in God's image, in holiness, spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding, just before man, they were created to be sent forth to ministered to God's elect.

Hebrews 1:14
"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

I know well what John 1:1 said and teaches.

John 1:1​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

I have already spent time on this verse earlier on in this thread, so I'll be short.

What did John mean by the beginning in his opening about the Word of God?

John used it here for the divine Word of God and also in 1st John 1:1,2; 2:13,14) It is before creation due to the Word creating all things by Himself (John 1:3). It therefore references eternity, the time (or lack thereof) before Genesis 1:1. The Word was not created, for He was in the very beginning before creation. Since the Word created all things (1:3), therefore He is Creator, not creature. If the Word gave being and existence to all things, He is independent of all. Since existence before creation is eternity, then Jesus Christ is eternal God.

Let us consider the English word ~ word ~ and its context here and elsewhere.

Word. I. Speech, utterance, verbal expression. Things said, or something said; speech, talk, discourse, utterance; report, tidings, news, information. II. An element of speech. A combination of vocal sounds, or one such sound, used in a language to express an idea and constituting an ultimate minimal element of speech having a meaning as such. [OED].

By its context, consider how the Word of God is a declaration or revelation. The heavens, part of all things, declares the glory of God (John 1:3; Psalms 19:1-6). The Word of God is the light of men by the eternal life He gives (John 1:4,5). He was the true Light that lights every man coming into the world (John 1:8). He was incarnated in man’s flesh for men to see; He revealed God (John 1:14). He brought grace and truth, totally unlike the word Moses brought (John 1:17). No man has ever seen God, but the incarnate Word declared Him (John 1:18). The eternal life with the Father, the Word of life, was manifested (1st John 1:2). The Word of God, with human nature as Jesus Christ, revealed God the Father. Jesus said no man could know the Father but by His revelation (Matthew 11;27). Jesus came to give men an understanding (the Word) of God (1st John 5:20).

"With God", simply mean part of God's nature as the Eternal God ~ the Godhead is ONE eternally DIVINE nature with no beginning, and no end.

The Word was God without any qualifications.

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Note very carefully that it was the Word, and not the Son, that is named here. The Word and the Son are not the same Being/Person without clarification. The Word became the Son by His incarnation in human flesh through Mary. The Son is dependent on both the Word and His human nature for existence. The Son was not made flesh, because the Son is flesh by His very existence.

This is an incredible event in all recorded history – Jehovah God became man. Remember from John 1:10 the Word was in the world and not known by it. All facts of human history recorded or studied in school pale in comparison. Why all the fuss about asinine nothing? … The Day the Earth Stood Still. Jesus Christ is also known as Emmanuel – God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23) . Jesus had a human body indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:7-9) God is a spirit. Jesus had a body. Jesus Christ is God, but God is not Jesus. The verse does not say that that the Son was made flesh, but the Word which was God was made flesh in the person Of Jesus of Narareth...The Word joined Himself to the tabernacle of God's Son and live in this world around 33 plus years over two thousand years ago.

That's God's testimony of His Son recorded for us in Luke one, mainly, with tons of other scriptures proving the same.

Firstborn describes the "preeminent position", regardless of any birth order (Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 11:17). Your added statement is not found in the scriptures.

You know that is blasphemy! Horribly unscriptural, that destroys Jesus Deity as God with those very words!

Revelation 1:7,8
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

You need to reconsider what you are reading and trusting in ~ that writer is badly deceived.
You need to reconsider what you are reading and trusting in ~ that writer is badly deceived.

No Red, he is not . Y0ou feel that way because he does not agree with you.

You are a Paul reader and believer are you not?

Well, I always said I wonder about the viability of Paul.

Colossians 1:16 "For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him."

But you are going to jump up and say this does not say that "Him" was the Son.

I use a lot of outside references to shore up my beliefs so YOU and othrs cannot claim that is is all my fantasy.

One, that I quasi-trust but is definitely on YOU side of predestination is Got Questions. Look what they say about this verse.

Colossians 1:16 says, “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” The Him here is a reference to Jesus, the image of the “invisible God” mentioned in the previous verse.

When Paul says that all things were made by Him and for Him, he is expressing Jesus’ central and superior role in creation. Several verses at the beginning of Colossians further highlight and elevate Jesus’ status as the Son of God over creation. Paul refers to Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation” (Colossians 1:15) and later says that Jesus is “before all things and in Him all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17). He also says that Jesus is the “head of the body” and “the beginning and firstborn from among the dead” (Colossians 1:18).

Side track.

I just had an idea for a movie.....

Picture this.... a huge classroom set outside the Pearly Gates leading into heaven and while St Peter is checking those names in the book of life to verify who gets entry, and he ushers each to a seat in this giant classroom.

There are going to be assorted subjects we will be taught from Free Will to Predestination, or Eternal Sonship to Incarnate Sonship and on and on because there is no bickering allowed inside and only the "TRUTH" will be spoken.

After attending these classes, everyone will be given a test. Those who do not get at least 90% correct on it will have to repeat them all from the beginning... and those who pass, will be given a gold star on their foreheads and ushered in.

Back on topic

The folloing 5 verses you know well as they are from your prefered KJV of the bible.

John 10:30​

“I and the Father are one.” – John 10:30

John 5:19​

“Jesus gave them this answer: ‘Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.'” – John 5:19

John 14:6-7​

“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.'” – John 14:6-7

Matthew 11:27​

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” – Matthew 11:27

John 14:10​

“Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.” – John 14:10

Can you not see that the tie in between the Father and the Son is so intricate that these verses scream out, to me, that Jesus
was from time before time. As the son because He is referring to the Father in each.

“Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.”

He is one with the Father. He always has been. They are 2 of the three in the Godhead.

They are separate but they are one. They are eternal. Father and Son
 
@FreeInChrist
Well, I always said I wonder about the viability of Paul.

Colossians 1:16 "For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him."
Not sure what Paul's viability has to do with thsi subject, but let us take a look at Colossians 1

Colossians 1:15-17​

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Verse 15: Jesus Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, for He is the Word made flesh that was God in his Divine nature. No man has or can see God, but men have and will see God made flesh in Jesus John 1:14,18)(. This is a great mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh as Immanuel (1st Timothy 3:16). Jesus is not just a similarity or close image of God: as God, He is His express image (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus Christ is a creature in his human nature, but He is highest of them by virtue of His divine. He was made flesh, made of the seed of David, made a quickening spirit, made of a woman, made under the law, made himself of no reputation, made in the likeness of men, made so much better than angels, made lower than the angels, made like unto his brethren, made higher than the heavens (Romans 1:3; 1st Corinthians 15; 45; Galatians 4:4; Philippians 2:7 Hebrews 1:4; 2:9,17 7:27) He is the heir, superior, with all the rights of every creature, for He created all creatures (1:16). Whenever we consider Jesus Christ, we must see aspects of His human and His Divine natures.

1:16 Jesus Christ created all things by and for Himself, that He might have absolute glory.​

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made (John 1:3).

Both things of this world and that which is to come were made by Him and for Him. Glory! Principalities and powers of this world or the spirit world are mere creatures of the Lord Jesus, which certainly does preliminary damage to the heresy of worshipping angels (2:18). He is the Source of all things, and He is the End or Purpose of all things. This includes Satan!

These terms are plainly used elsewhere to describe God Himself. Jesus Christ is truly Jehovah!

1:17 Jesus Christ is Jehovah God; He is before all creatures and upholds them by His power.​

This text does not say “was” any more than Matthew 22:32. Jesus of Nazareth is Jehovah! This text does not say “was” any more than John 3:13, even if it is missing from other versions. He is, was, and shall be before all creatures; He is Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3:14; 63). He upholds all things by the word of His power, even all things large and small (Hebrews 1:3). Whether you think of stars and planets, or molecules and nuclei, He binds them all together. The language is similar to that of Romans 11:36, which describes God. Jesus is Jehovah God! We must be able to distinguish the two distinct natures in Christ, who was an complex person fully man and fully God, without an toggle switch to flip off and o ~, the wisdom and power of God made this so.

So, actually Paul elevated Jesus AS JEHOVAH, the I AM THAT I AM. "As the Son of God," he gave God all the glory and rightly so in his humanity as Jesus of Narareth. It is truly a mystery of godliness, thought of by the wisdom of the HIGHEST and carried out perfectly by his Almighty power.
 
You need to reconsider what you are reading and trusting in ~ that writer is badly deceived.

No Red, he is not . Y0ou feel that way because he does not agree with you.


You are a Paul reader and believer are you not?

Well, I always said I wonder about the viability of Paul.

Colossians 1:16 "For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him."

But you are going to jump up and say this does not say that "Him" was the Son.

I use a lot of outside references to shore up my beliefs so YOU and othrs cannot claim that is is all my fantasy.

One, that I quasi-trust but is definitely on YOU side of predestination is Got Questions. Look what they say about this verse.

Colossians 1:16 says, “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” The Him here is a reference to Jesus, the image of the “invisible God” mentioned in the previous verse.

When Paul says that all things were made by Him and for Him, he is expressing Jesus’ central and superior role in creation. Several verses at the beginning of Colossians further highlight and elevate Jesus’ status as the Son of God over creation. Paul refers to Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation” (Colossians 1:15) and later says that Jesus is “before all things and in Him all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17). He also says that Jesus is the “head of the body” and “the beginning and firstborn from among the dead” (Colossians 1:18).

Side track.

I just had an idea for a movie.....

Picture this.... a huge classroom set outside the Pearly Gates leading into heaven and while St Peter is checking those names in the book of life to verify who gets entry, and he ushers each to a seat in this giant classroom.

There are going to be assorted subjects we will be taught from Free Will to Predestination, or Eternal Sonship to Incarnate Sonship and on and on because there is no bickering allowed inside and only the "TRUTH" will be spoken.

After attending these classes, everyone will be given a test. Those who do not get at least 90% correct on it will have to repeat them all from the beginning... and those who pass, will be given a gold star on their foreheads and ushered in.

Back on topic

The folloing 5 verses you know well as they are from your prefered KJV of the bible.

John 10:30​


John 5:19​


John 14:6-7​


Matthew 11:27​


John 14:10​



Can you not see that the tie in between the Father and the Son is so intricate that these verses scream out, to me, that Jesus
was from time before time. As the son because He is referring to the Father in each.

“Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.”

He is one with the Father. He always has been. They are 2 of the three in the Godhead.

They are separate but they are one. They are eternal. Father and Son
Amen
 
I know you want to come back to finish with Rowan but What are you saying here....?

You say "before Jesus was conceived and born, he was the God of Genesis 1:1
You are talking in circles again.

We, MOST, all agree that He was in Genesis 1:1 but Jesus was not His name. And MOST agree He was one of the ones in the "Let us make" verse

Do you know the name that has been referred to as being in Gen 1:1 along with God YHWH? That one was called the Word.
AND BEFORE YOU GET ALL HYPER AND SAY WELL WORD IS NOT A NAME.

John tells us in 1:14.... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John talks of the Word, not the name Jesus, yet before conception they were instructed to name the baby Jesus..... ) So what is it about this word that became flesh and walked among us?

So you still insist that this Son of God did not become such until Mary gave birth?

Look closely at John 1:15 KJV Look at the wording....

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

For he was before me????????????????/


Question Is Jesus the Creator? Answer Genesis 1:1 says that "God created the heavens and the earth." Then, Colossians 1:16 gives the added detail that God created "all things" through Jesus Christ. The plain teaching of Scripture, therefore, is that Jesus is the Creator of the universe.(So by the time Colossians was written, after the death of Jesus, it surly was well known by Paul
that it was Jesus, the begotten of the Father who created creation, and all scriptures that I read point to this fact.

Perhaps this will help clarify things for you.. any color changes are mine for emphasis.

Was Jesus the Son of God before his conception with Mary or even before the creation of heaven and earth? Can you further prove that Jesus was created by God?​

February 18, 2016

The scripture that best explains this is found in Colossians 1:12-18, “Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light…Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

The following is my comments to the above.....
Slowly now... I'll repeat. Giving thanks unto the Father, This would be God the Father.....
which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light..
Who is the image of the invisible God, ( This would be Jesus)
the firstborn of every creature: (Again, this is Jesus who was the first born of every creature before he created creation.)


Please continue....
The concept of firstborn is of one having a beginning coming from another that was prior to himself but is the first of perhaps many. The same concept is also stated in Revelation 3:14, “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” This says that the very first thing that God did while being alone was to create Jesus.

Another scripture passage that says the same thing is found in Proverbs 8:22-23 (Revised Standard Version), “The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.” Although this is talking about wisdom, consider 1 Corinthians 1:30, “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom.” Hence Proverbs 8 is talking about Jesus, who is the wisdom of God in his pre-human experience.

Most translators follow the Latin Vulgate mistranslation for John 1:1 rather than John’s original Greek! John literally tells us that the Word (Jesus before becoming a babe in Bethlehem) was “towards God.” This requires some interpretation.

Hebrews 2:17 provides insight; “Therefore, He (Jesus) had to be made like His brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God….” This Greek phrase “in things pertaining to God” and “with God” are identical! Clearly, their sense is “to be in heart union and desiring to serve.”
Red is correct. Jesus is the God, and the Only God at Genesis 1:1. meaning he, Jesus, is the First. for the term "Beginning" there says it all.
Beginning: H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218

definition #1. The "First". yes, in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK. meaning God is an Ordinal of himself to come. this is supportive of Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" the term "ONE" here is the Hebrew word,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

an "Ordinal" ...... FIRST? yes, as in the Ordinal designations of .... "FIRST" and "Last". this as plain as it get. the Lord Jesus is the First and the Last, the ONE TRUE God from the beginning of our CREATION, Genesis 1:1 to the END of our CREATION Revelation 22:21.

Genesis 1:1 clearly tells us who the Lord Jesus is in both Spirit, Genesis 1:1 and in Natural Flesh, with blood, John 1:1 and in GLORIFIED flesh, without blood, Revelation 1:1.

do one know what this indicate? Genesis 1:1 "I AM", (Spirit)/Father, CREATOR of ALL THINGS. John 1:1 "THAT", (spirit/man, Son, REDEEMER of ALL THINGS that he CREATED. Revelation 1:1 "I AM"...... spirit, GLORIFIED/ in Flesh and bones, without blood, Son in Amalgamation "with" the (Father, Spirit). I AM he who was dead, and is now alive forever more. I AM THAT I AM.

101G.
 

Colossians 1:15-17​

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Verse 15: Jesus Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, for
Correct, Jesus is that IMAGE, Man, that was to come, the IMAGE he made in Genesis 1:27.... with God the IMAGE appeared before the Source was manifested. hence the spoken words in Genesis 1:26, US and OUR that was to come ..... in manifestation.

101G.
 
@FreeInChrist

Not sure what Paul's viability has to do with thsi subject, but let us take a look at Colossians 1

Colossians 1:15-17​

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Verse 15: Jesus Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, for He is the Word made flesh that was God in his Divine nature. No man has or can see God, but men have and will see God made flesh in Jesus John 1:14,18)(. This is a great mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh as Immanuel (1st Timothy 3:16). Jesus is not just a similarity or close image of God: as God, He is His express image (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus Christ is a creature in his human nature, but He is highest of them by virtue of His divine. He was made flesh, made of the seed of David, made a quickening spirit, made of a woman, made under the law, made himself of no reputation, made in the likeness of men, made so much better than angels, made lower than the angels, made like unto his brethren, made higher than the heavens (Romans 1:3; 1st Corinthians 15; 45; Galatians 4:4; Philippians 2:7 Hebrews 1:4; 2:9,17 7:27) He is the heir, superior, with all the rights of every creature, for He created all creatures (1:16). Whenever we consider Jesus Christ, we must see aspects of His human and His Divine natures.

1:16 Jesus Christ created all things by and for Himself, that He might have absolute glory.​

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made (John 1:3).

Both things of this world and that which is to come were made by Him and for Him. Glory! Principalities and powers of this world or the spirit world are mere creatures of the Lord Jesus, which certainly does preliminary damage to the heresy of worshipping angels (2:18). He is the Source of all things, and He is the End or Purpose of all things. This includes Satan!

These terms are plainly used elsewhere to describe God Himself. Jesus Christ is truly Jehovah!

1:17 Jesus Christ is Jehovah God; He is before all creatures and upholds them by His power.​

This text does not say “was” any more than Matthew 22:32. Jesus of Nazareth is Jehovah! This text does not say “was” any more than John 3:13, even if it is missing from other versions. He is, was, and shall be before all creatures; He is Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3:14; 63). He upholds all things by the word of His power, even all things large and small (Hebrews 1:3). Whether you think of stars and planets, or molecules and nuclei, He binds them all together. The language is similar to that of Romans 11:36, which describes God. Jesus is Jehovah God! We must be able to distinguish the two distinct natures in Christ, who was an complex person fully man and fully God, without an toggle switch to flip off and o ~, the wisdom and power of God made this so.

So, actually Paul elevated Jesus AS JEHOVAH, the I AM THAT I AM. "As the Son of God," he gave God all the glory and rightly so in his humanity as Jesus of Narareth. It is truly a mystery of godliness, thought of by the wisdom of the HIGHEST and carried out perfectly by his Almighty power.
@Keiw1 I tagged you here for the express reason I want you to see what is said about Jehovah and you have a tie with the KJV.
Exciting isn't it?

Uh oh, I am sensing not a melding of the mind but a melting of the mind

Jehovah? Really Red.
Some translations, particularly those used by Latter-day Saints, refer to Jesus as Jehovah, emphasizing that He is the God of the Old Testament. However, most modern translations typically use "LORD" in place of Jehovah when referring to God in the Old Testament, which can lead to different interpretations regarding Jesus' identity.

"So, actually Paul elevated Jesus AS JEHOVAH, the I AM THAT I AM. "As the Son of God," he gave God all the glory and rightly so in his humanity as Jesus of Narareth. It is truly a mystery of godliness, thought of by the wisdom of the HIGHEST and carried out perfectly by his Almighty power."
It is also used, and strenuously promoted by, the Jehovah's Witnesses. Y OU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT WELL BY @Keiw1 ..
. A little comment on this....
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the name of God is recorded as YHWH. So, where did the name “Jehovah” come from? Ancient Hebrew did not use vowels in its written form. The vowels were pronounced in spoken Hebrew but were not recorded in written Hebrew. The appropriate vowel sounds of words were passed down orally. As a result, when ancient Hebrew is studied, scholars and linguists often do not know with absolute confidence how certain Hebrew words were pronounced.

This particularly becomes an issue when studying the Hebrew name of God, written in the Hebrew Scriptures as YHWH, also known as the tetragrammaton. Despite much study and debate, it is still not universally agreed upon how the Hebrew name for God YHWH was pronounced. Some prefer “Yahweh” (YAH-way); others prefer “Yehowah,” “Yahuweh,” or “Yahawah”; still others argue for “Jehovah.”

As you can see, virtually everything is up for debate. Should YHWH be pronounced with three syllables or two? Should the vowels be borrowed from Elohim or Adonai? Should the W be pronounced with more of a W sound or more of a V sound? It is not the purpose of this article to settle the debate. Rather, it is the purpose of this article to discuss the use of “Jehovah.”

The vast majority of Jewish and Christian biblical scholars and linguists do not believe “Jehovah” to be the proper pronunciation of YHWH.

The vast majority of Jewish and Christian biblical scholars and linguists do not believe “Jehovah” to be the proper pronunciation of YHWH. There was no true J sound in ancient Hebrew. Even the Hebrew letter vav, which is transliterated as the W in YHWH is said to have originally had a pronunciation closer to W than the V of Jehovah. Jehovah is essentially a Germanic pronunciation of the Latinized transliteration of the Hebrew YHWH. It is the letters of the tetragrammaton, Latinized into JHVH, with vowels inserted. “Yahweh” or “Yehowah” is far more likely to be the correct pronunciation.

The form Jehovah, though, is very commonly used. It is used in the King James Version of the Bible (Genesis 22:14; Exodus 6:3; 17:15; Judges 6:24; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2; 26:4). It is also used, and strenuously promoted by, the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses emphasize the use of Jehovah to the extent that any other name or title for God is viewed as borderline idolatry or outright heresy.

With all of that said, it is not crucial to the Christian faith for the proper pronunciation of YHWH to be known. Both the Old and New Testaments, inspired by God, use generic terms for “God” and “Lord,” including El, Elohim, and Adonai (Hebrew); and Theos and Kurios (Greek). If the authors of Scripture, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were allowed to use these terms, it is not wrong for us to refer to Him as “God” or “Lord,” either.
 
Red is correct. Jesus is the God, and the Only God at Genesis 1:1. meaning he, Jesus, is the First. for the term "Beginning" there says it all.
Beginning: H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218

definition #1. The "First". yes, in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK. meaning God is an Ordinal of himself to come. this is supportive of Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" the term "ONE" here is the Hebrew word,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

an "Ordinal" ...... FIRST? yes, as in the Ordinal designations of .... "FIRST" and "Last". this as plain as it get. the Lord Jesus is the First and the Last, the ONE TRUE God from the beginning of our CREATION, Genesis 1:1 to the END of our CREATION Revelation 22:21.

Genesis 1:1 clearly tells us who the Lord Jesus is in both Spirit, Genesis 1:1 and in Natural Flesh, with blood, John 1:1 and in GLORIFIED flesh, without blood, Revelation 1:1.

do one know what this indicate? Genesis 1:1 "I AM", (Spirit)/Father, CREATOR of ALL THINGS. John 1:1 "THAT", (spirit/man, Son, REDEEMER of ALL THINGS that he CREATED. Revelation 1:1 "I AM"...... spirit, GLORIFIED/ in Flesh and bones, without blood, Son in Amalgamation "with" the (Father, Spirit). I AM he who was dead, and is now alive forever more. I AM THAT I AM.

101G.
101G respectfully I am only challenging Red on this because he is insistent that Jesus was not the Son until he came from Mary.

You may agree with this. I do not.

I am the one who believes in the 3. And I believe the 3 were in existence for all of eternity past. And I see the 3 in Genesis 1.

Believe as you will and I will believe as I know .
 
@Studyman

I know you believe this, I have heard it a hundred times over, almost word for word. But if you read my words carefully I never said or called you a Sabbath worshipper, I said clearly ~ "concerning Sabbath day Worship", or the day Christian set aside a day to worship God.

I read what you posted, now you want to change it. What a surprise.

Is it Saturday or Sunday

You are a self proclaimed "minister of righteousness" and you don't know what Day God sanctified and set apart as His Holy Sabbath?

~ yet we all understand we truly worrship God 24/7 in truth and spirit, a constant walking and meditation on God, his word, etc. God rules in our hearts on every decision we we make, every words that flows from our lips are guarded in a way, so as to please God first and foremost. This is true worship for a child of God in a summarized in a few words.

I get it that you have convinced yourself you are a minister of righteousness. But if you don't even know what day God's Sabbath Commandment referred to, why in earth would I adopt your religion?


Read again what I just said to you and let it sink in if you can, which not sure you can, to be honest.

For now I will only say this those OT Feast, Feasts of the Lord were a type of or shadow of good things Yet to come. (This is why HE gave them to us, and why Paul walked in them and taught others to do the same) We do not observe the OT Passover, Feast of the Lord, Passover and other feast of the OT Jews' rellgion, of the Lord Feast of Unleavened bread, Pentecost, etc, which were shadow obviously, of things yet to come but different.

This is true, you reject God's Commandments, and you reject the Feasts of the Lord as if they are beneath your honor and respect, because you have Judged the Feasts of the Lord, and HIS Sabbaths as beneath your honor and respect. Choosing instead to honor and respect the sabbaths and high days of the RCC.

Think about how disrespectful and dishonoring this is to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, and let that sink in.


In taking of the Lord's supper we do it in remembrance of Christ's body being broken for us and his life blood given to wash away our sins.

The Jesus of the Bible has not yet returned Red. Passover is just the beginning of God's Salvation. There are a lot of people who offer to God Christ's Blood for their sins, that only honored God with their lips during their lives. Jesus speaks to them in Matt. 7. He said we will know them by their works.

No where are we commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath days,

This is the devil talking through you "AGAIN". God's Sabbath is "God's Sabbath", HE created it, HE sanctified it and codified it into HIS LAW. The Jews may have created their own high days, like you have, they certainly had their own commandments and judgments, like you do, but I'm not speaking to the "Jews Religion" that persecuted the Church of God and killed the Prophets, and Jesus. I'm talking about God's commandments Jesus and Paul walked in. To say there was no Command from God to Keep God's Sabbath Holy, is a flat out lie, and one that is easily exposed, by simply believing in the Jesus "of the Bible", and following His Instruction to "Seek the Righteousness of God".

Whose Words did Jesus say to Live by? The Popes? Constantine? Or God His Father?

The reason why Jesus said to "Come out of her", that is, this world's religious system, is because they hear Him, but are not "doers" of His Words.

not eating certain meat, yet are told to not let any judge us because we refuse to keep the Jewish Sabbaths, etc.

Colossians 2:16​

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The devil is speaking through you again. Paul is telling those Faithful believers not to let the preachers of this world Judge them for their honor and respect to God and His Commandments. These that created for a purpose "BY GOD" for His People.

Paul knew there would be Constantine's and Armenians and Red Bakers who would spend their entire lives judging, ridiculing, persecuting men who "Yielded themselves" servant to obey God, which is only our "reasonable service".

The whole point of the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible" is to create men who "were the servants of sin", "who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past they walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" that being forgiven or as Paul teaches, "Being then made free from sin", ye became the servants of righteousness.

When I walked in your religion, this was me.

The whole point of the Gospel is to free a man from his past sins so he is free to "put on the new man, which "after God" (Not Jews as the devil teaches through you) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Of course Paul teaches not to let men like you or Kenneth Copeland or anyone else Judge the Faithful believers in their submission to God's Righteousness.


True any day belongs to God, and is to be use to serve him, yet there is a reason why Paul said these words:

1 Corinthians 16:2​

“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.”

God's Sabbath isn't for counting money, conducting business, stacking food stuffs, making clothes etc. You try and use "Some" of God's Word to justify the philosophies of the RCC. Goodness knows you are not the first "minister of righteousness" to do that. And you won't be the last.


Let Seventh Day Adventists and all those who hold to their teachings without calling themselves by that name cavil and complain; they are heretical idolaters of Saturn’s Day.

I don't care about, nor am I speaking about the Calvinist religion, or the SDA religion or the JW religion, or the Methodist religion or the Mormon religion. I'm not talking about, or justifying any of them, and they are the same religion, promoting the same judgments and high days, promoting the same religious system of this world. You are the one who chose to adopt one of the many religions that make up this world's religious system, not me Red.

These simple people have been deceived by a neurotic woman named Ellen G. Harmon. She has convinced them Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and invention of Rome.

And you have been deceived by a man named Calvin, a man that transformed himself into an Apostle of Christ, that Jesus abolished God's Sabbath. Yu are also deceived by Constantine, that God was born on Dec. 25th. Others have adopted the religious opinions of Charles Russell, other John Wesley and Arminius. Jesus said there would be "Many" who come in His Name, and that we should Take Heed we are not convinced of things about God that are not true, AKA, deceived by them.

All this was shown her by a vision of the fourth commandment highlighted in the ark! They (again, all who teach as they do) also are pagan vegetarians by the same ignorance and superstition (Colossians 2:16-19). The only mention of the Sabbath by Paul is to condemn its applicability (Colossians 2:16,17).

Again, the devil speaking through you. Paul condemned no such thing.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ. (The Spiritual Rock that taught Israel in the way that he should go)

The devil wants men to believe God's Instruction in Righteousness is "ignorance and superstition". I have come to know this is your mission. But the Jesus "of the bible" didn't walk in worthless Jewish traditions, nor are the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God "Ignorant and superstitious". In your religion, God's Laws and Judgments are no different that Pagan laws and judgments, which you have clearly point out to me dozens of times.

Nevertheless, your preaching that Paul condemns God's Laws, Statutes or Judgments in Col.2 in an insidious falsehood. You should be teaching these falsehoods to children or anyone. You should be ashamed of yourself, but as it is written, you are not.

Jer. 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.


The council at Jerusalem dealt with Gentiles, but ignored the Sabbath (Acts 15:22-29).

Again, the devil speaking through you. Let look at what is actually written.

Acts 15: 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols (Law of Moses), and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled,(Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses) 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues "every sabbath day".

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they (Not God as you and Kenneth Copeland teaches) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This is the "Yoke of Bondage" mentioned by the Disciples in Acts 15, not God's Laws as you preach to the world.

Jesus showed Himself on the first day of the week and made it the Lord’s day (Revelation 1:10).

The day after God's Holy Sabbath is the 1st day of the week. Of course Jesus showed Himself on the 1st day. What would you have him do? Wait a week? Your preaching that this abolished God's Commandment is from below, not above.

The disciples of the New Testament churches met on Sunday for worship (Acts 20:7).

And Monday 8 days later.
Paul only used Saturday to preach to Jews and Gentile proselytes before conversion. The instruction of this text (1st Corinthians 16:2) proves clearly that Sunday was a holy time for the apostles. Paul included the churches of Galatia in this order, which applied Sunday to all churches.

Every scholar of the bible knows there is not one place where it was prophesied, stated, proclaimed, or otherwise taught in the Bible, that God's Sabbath was changed from the 7th day to the 1st day of the week. You can provide nothing by a few verses twisted to justify the Constantinian sabbath. You are free to reject any Command of God you want, just as Adam and Eve were, but you will find nothing that shows God, Jesus or Paul changed or rejected God's commandments. This has been known for a long time.

"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903."

"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
—The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73."

"But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed.

They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.
—The Faith of Millions"

You are this boy.

How many times in the Church epistles care to know? I can only think of one, and that one in its applicability for NT Christians! all are in the Gospel before Acts 2. There's a reason for this. NT Christian are not under the Jewish Sabbaths day. You cannot be both and be right!

It is true that you can't give yourself immortality by just calling Jesus Lord, Lord. That professing to know God, but rejecting His commandments and Judgments, is the "work" of the deceived.

The Bible warns over and over and over about men who profess to know Him, but are deceivers. Yet there is not even ONE prophesy about the abolition of God's Laws, and most certainly not God's Sabbath.

God does however, prophesy over and over and over about "Many" men who profess to know Him, but despise His Judgments, pollutes His Sabbaths, and rejects His commandments, that lead His people astray.
 
@Studyman
I read what you posted, now you want to change it. What a surprise.
I'm not going to rehash everything again, but only will mention a few things. I never change, I just corrected your spin that you put on my words, nothing more, others can judge for themselves, if they care to do so, and make their own judgement.
why in earth would I adopt your religion?
First, you would not be welcome, with your strange teachings on the few subjects that I have seen you to ever attempt to have a serious dialogue concerning, in the very small world you live in, and I can almost repeat those words verbatim.

Secondly, we use Saturday for a work day around the house, etc., etc. Sunday day set aside to honor the Lord's Day. So, you would not, besides If we had a potluck dinner, pork would definitely be on the menu, and you would go hungry.
The Jesus of the Bible has not yet returned Red. Passover is just the beginning of God's Salvation. There are a lot of people who offer to God Christ's Blood for their sins, that only honored God with their lips during their lives. Jesus speaks to them in Matt. 7. He said we will know them by their works.
We do not observe the OT Passover, we have the Lord's supper, not the OT Jewish feast, we live under Christ, not Moses.

You said: "There are a lot of people who offer to God Christ's Blood for their sins"

I have no clue what you are referring to, and not sure you do either ~ that's a strange statement. It was Christ who offered himself up to God to be a propitiation for our sins by his death (shedding his blood, etc.)
And you have been deceived by a man named Calvin, a man that transformed himself into an Apostle of Christ, that Jesus abolished God's Sabbath. Yu are also deceived by Constantine, that God was born on Dec. 25th. Others have adopted the religious opinions of Charles Russell, other John Wesley and Arminius. Jesus said there would be "Many" who come in His Name, and that we should Take Heed we are not convinced of things about God that are not true, AKA, deceived by them.
A couple of quick notes. I never read behind Calvin UNTIL I got grounded in what saw from the scriptures then I read some of Calvin's works, as I did hundred's of other folks. Calvin was strongest on practical Christianity more so that a few other subjects.

I do not celebrate Christmas thank you very much, just proves you know very little about me. Though I do not celebrate December 25th as Christ's birthday, I refuse to judge those that do, per Romans 14. There're great battles to be fought.


Enough said for now, I have a meeting come up until 2:30 or so.
 
@Studyman

I'm not going to rehash everything again, but only will mention a few things. I never change, I just corrected your spin that you put on my words, nothing more, others can judge for themselves, if they care to do so, and make their own judgement.

First, you would not be welcome, with your strange teachings on the few subjects that I have seen you to ever attempt to have a serious dialogue concerning, in the very small world you live in, and I can almost repeat those words verbatim.

Secondly, we use Saturday for a work day around the house, etc., etc. Sunday day set aside to honor the Lord's Day. So, you would not, besides If we had a potluck dinner, pork would definitely be on the menu, and you would go hungry.

We do not observe the OT Passover, we have the Lord's supper, not the OT Jewish feast, we live under Christ, not Moses.

You said: "There are a lot of people who offer to God Christ's Blood for their sins"

I have no clue what you are referring to, and not sure you do either ~ that's a strange statement. It was Christ who offered himself up to God to be a propitiation for our sins by his death (shedding his blood, etc.)

A couple of quick notes. I never read behind Calvin UNTIL I got grounded in what saw from the scriptures then I read some of Calvin's works, as I did hundred's of other folks. Calvin was strongest on practical Christianity more so that a few other subjects.

I do not celebrate Christmas thank you very much, just proves you know very little about me. Though I do not celebrate December 25th as Christ's birthday, I refuse to judge those that do, per Romans 14. There're great battles to be fought.


Enough said for now, I have a meeting come up until 2:30 or so.


Yes, it always about you.
 
The Jews may have created their own high days, like you have, they certainly had their own commandments and judgments, like you do, but I'm not speaking to the "Jews Religion" that persecuted the Church of God and killed the Prophets, and Jesus.
The following link is too long for me to post.

You should read it and learn something about one thing you are in error about but should know


It is about Did the Jews Crucify Jesus.​

 
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He see's the past, the present, and the future all at the same time. A thousand years is like nothing to Jesus. Before time began, Jesus was God.
Jesus would be a liar if your reasoning is correct. He is 100% certain-John 17:3--The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD----the mislead refuse to believe him. Paul believed him as do all true followers-1Cor 8:6
 
The following link is too long for me to post.

You should read it and learn something about one thing you are in error about but should know


It is about Did the Jews Crucify Jesus.​


I have heard of this philosophy many times before. But have come to understand the danger and warnings of looking to or believing voices outside the Holy Scriptures, for knowledge about God and His Son. I am glad to share with you what the bible actually says about this very thing, and why it is my understanding that the Jews Killed Jesus and persecuted and even killed some of the Prophets. I would appreciate it if you would show me where I am off base in my belief in this matter based on what is actually written in scriptures.

First, there are the Word's of Jesus Himself.

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now "ye" (Jews, Yes?) seek to kill me, "a man" that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

So do you think Jesus was in error here, and was confused about who would actually cause His death? I don't think HE was in Error at all.

Matt. 26: 3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, (Jews, Yes?) unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 And consulted "that they might take Jesus by subtilty", and kill him.

Mark 10: 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; (Jews, Yes?) and they (Jews) shall condemn him "to death", and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

Everyone knew the Jews were conspiring to Kill Him, why is it so hard for you to believe also?

John 7: 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, "whom they seek to kill"? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

Do you then believe that the Jews were right, and Jesus was lying to them? That they were not conspiring how they might Kill Him? I don't believe that at all. Yet you are trying to convince me with this internet sermon that I'm in error here, because I believe what Jesus said about the rebellious Jews.

And what did Pilate actually say?

John 19: 4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know "that I find no fault in him". 5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. (Jews, Yes?) Pilate saith unto them, (The Jews) Take ye him, "and crucify him": for I (Ruler of the Gentiles) find no fault in him.

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by "our law" he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

So if you can show me how I am in error by accusing the rebellious Jews for killing Jesus and the Prophets, based on Christ's Own Testimony, and the eye witness accounts I have posted which bring me to my understanding, please show me.

Secondly, there is the actual beliefs and statements of the Apostles themselves, who were eye witnesses, as opposed to the sermon you found on the internet which were not.

Acts 2: 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all "the house of Israel" (Jews, Yes) know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom "ye have crucified", both Lord and Christ.

Acts 5: 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, (Jews, Yes?) 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Is it your understanding that Peter was lying about the Jews, falsely laying the Death of Jesus on the Jews?

Please note what Peter, the Stone on which Jesus said His Church was to be built upon, said concerning this issue you believe I am in Error on.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom "ye slew" and hanged on a tree.

But you might think Peter had too many faults for you to consider his testimony as truth. So what did the other Apostles say about who killed Jesus?

Let's hear what Stephen had to say.

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and "they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One"; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and "murderers:"

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Now Surely you understand that Pilate and the Romans were not Given the Law by Moses, or the disposition of Angels. I think Stephen is Speaking about the Jews here, don't you? Please show me how my understanding is flawed concerning these these Scriptures.

So what does Paul say about who killed Jesus.

1 Thess. 2: 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have "of the Jews":

15 Who both "killed the Lord Jesus", and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

So Jesus knew, Peter knew, Stephen knew, Matthew knew, John knew that the Jews Killed Jesus. And they all said so, even Pilate said so, and the Jews themselves said so.

So I appreciate you wanting to show me my error in my understanding, "but I'm not speaking to the "Jews Religion" that persecuted the Church of God and killed the Prophets, and Jesus".

But why would I reject all these Witnesses, just to adopt the religious views of an internet religious web site?

Let me ask you some things, if your husband lusted after your neighbors wife, had pictures of her, lusted after her beauty, longed for her during the days and nights with you, but never actually laid with her, is He guilty of Adultery? If you pay a man to kill your husband because you hate him in your heart, are you not just as guilty, or even more so, than the man who pulled the trigger? Pilate tried to set Him Free, but the rebellious religious Jews who "Professed to know God" demanded His Death.

This theme is present through out the entire Bible. Abel's own brother killed Him. It was the Children of Israel God just saved from Egypt, that wanted to Kill Caleb and Joshua for simply telling the Truth. It was "Israel" who sought to kill Alijah, a prophet of God. It was Israel that dropped Jeremiah into a septic tank. It was the corrupt priests of Israel who turned men away from God. It was Men who "come in Christ's Name" that Jesus warned about. It was those "Who professed to know God", that stoned Stephen to death.

I really hope you will close your ears to all the other religious voices in this world we are born into, and stick to the Scriptures.

Thanks for the topic, and please engage back with me as I have engaged with you.
 
I have heard of this philosophy many times before. But have come to understand the danger and warnings of looking to or believing voices outside the Holy Scriptures, for knowledge about God and His Son. I am glad to share with you what the bible actually says about this very thing, and why it is my understanding that the Jews Killed Jesus and persecuted and even killed some of the Prophets. I would appreciate it if you would show me where I am off base in my belief in this matter based on what is actually written in scriptures.
I'lll tell you of the dangers to rely only on the Holy Book.

Some of the Translations are wrong. If you are to rely solely on them you need 4 to 6 sources for comparison
for what you see in one might sound right but in another the wording can throw one off

Example: Jon 1:1 that says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

NWT states In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. See the difference?

Using just this one verse look at some variations.

New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Amplified Bible
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Good News Translation (Same as God's Word)
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Lamsa Bible
THE Word was in the beginning, and that very Word was with God, and God was that Word.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

These all sound alike and do carry a very similar message, but not 100% literally the same.

As to KJV. It is spot on... here. But there are places it is not. NO bible is 100%. You need to study more then one
to really know what is there
You must look outside for confirmation. The very same way you would check out preachers and what they taught before you would listen to them or send your kids to learn from them.
 
I'lll tell you of the dangers to rely only on the Holy Book.

Some of the Translations are wrong. If you are to rely solely on them you need 4 to 6 sources for comparison
for what you see in one might sound right but in another the wording can throw one off

So then to bring you back to your post that was correcting me in my error concerning who God Declared killed His Son, and the Error of my belief that it was the rebellious Jews who Killed Jesus, it is your contention then, that to understand the truth about God, I need to disregard the Word's printed in "EVERY" New Testament ever published, and also disregard the Apostle Paul and Peter, and Matthew's eye witness accounts, that are printed in EVERY New testament translation ever printed, and instead of trusting them, I must go to "www.Torah.com" and other web sites available to me in this world God placed me in, to determine the truth about "who killed Jesus"?

Why on earth would I go to this world's religious web sites on the internet, to learn about God?

I am surprised by your response, and refusal to address even ONE of my questions, or even acknowledge even "ONE" of the Scriptures I posted in response to your post that you sent to me. I was starting to think you might be different than Red.

Wow!
 
101G respectfully I am only challenging Red on this because he is insistent that Jesus was not the Son until he came from Mary.

You may agree with this. I do not.
GINOLJC, to all.
Jesus who is the ONLY true God is the Father, (title LORD) through out the entire bible, (until the NEW CREATION, or as the bible say, the Beginning of God's creation), and yes, in Diversity, as the Lord, he, Jesus is the Son., (in flesh bone and Blood).
I am the one who believes in the 3. And I believe the 3 were in existence for all of eternity past. And I see the 3 in Genesis 1.
ok, if that's true, then answer this, "Who made all things?". listen,
A. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." this is your one called the son right?... now this,

B. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

now free, who made all things, the Lord in A. or the LORD, (all caps), in B. ... which one? remember the "LORD" all caps in Isaiah 44:24 was ALONE and BY HIMSELF. and ALONE means, having no one else present. think before you answer.


Now, this, "WHO LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH?"
A. Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" here the "Lord" laid the foundation of the earth..... IN THE BEGINNING.

B. Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." here the LORD all caps laid the foundation of the earth.

so free, is the Lord and the LORD the same one person, or do you have two separate and distinct CREATORS who laid the foundation of the earth? THINK, before you answer.

please understand, 101G is not confronting your beliefs. only changeling what you believe. you choose this day who you believe.... God, for it is written in the bible, or do you choose what man say.

101G.
 
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