Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[Anja]

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He see's the past, the present, and the future all at the same time. A thousand years is like nothing to Jesus. Before time began, Jesus was God.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

You say "before Jesus was conceived and born, he was the God of Genesis 1:1
You are talking in circles again.

Not even close to talking in a circle, but speaking words of soberness and truth, that protect our Lord's Deity.

We, MOST, all agree that He was in Genesis 1:1 but Jesus was not His name. And MOST agree He was one of the ones in the "Let us make" verse

Not in Genesis 1:1, but was the Eternal God of Genesis 1:1, a huge difference. The burden of proof is on the Eternal Sonship folks to prove he was there, which they can never do, it is the blind follow the blind syndrome that the RCC Nicene Council of 325 produce (they came together to resolve theological disputes about the divinity of Jesus) to send into the world, instead of resolving the doctrine, they corrupted it. The seed of heresy was sowed into the world and has taken deep roots, even to a point, that most never consider the ramification of this heresy, they just blindly follow it as though it is the truth.

You said: "And MOST agree He was one of the ones in the "Let us make" verse"...............
I Know most do, but they cannot prove it. Us are the elect angels that were created in God's image, in holiness, spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding, just before man, they were created to be sent forth to ministered to God's elect.

Hebrews 1:14
"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

Do you know the name that has been referred to as being in Gen 1:1 along with God YHWH? That one was called the Word.
AND BEFORE YOU GET ALL HYPER AND SAY WELL WORD IS NOT A NAME.

John tells us in 1:14.... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John talks of the Word, not the name Jesus, yet before conception they were instructed to name the baby Jesus..... ) So what is it about this word that became flesh and walked among us?

I know well what John 1:1 said and teaches.

John 1:1​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

I have already spent time on this verse earlier on in this thread, so I'll be short.

What did John mean by the beginning in his opening about the Word of God?

John used it here for the divine Word of God and also in 1st John 1:1,2; 2:13,14) It is before creation due to the Word creating all things by Himself (John 1:3). It therefore references eternity, the time (or lack thereof) before Genesis 1:1. The Word was not created, for He was in the very beginning before creation. Since the Word created all things (1:3), therefore He is Creator, not creature. If the Word gave being and existence to all things, He is independent of all. Since existence before creation is eternity, then Jesus Christ is eternal God.

Let us consider the English word ~ word ~ and its context here and elsewhere.

Word. I. Speech, utterance, verbal expression. Things said, or something said; speech, talk, discourse, utterance; report, tidings, news, information. II. An element of speech. A combination of vocal sounds, or one such sound, used in a language to express an idea and constituting an ultimate minimal element of speech having a meaning as such. [OED].

By its context, consider how the Word of God is a declaration or revelation. The heavens, part of all things, declares the glory of God (John 1:3; Psalms 19:1-6). The Word of God is the light of men by the eternal life He gives (John 1:4,5). He was the true Light that lights every man coming into the world (John 1:8). He was incarnated in man’s flesh for men to see; He revealed God (John 1:14). He brought grace and truth, totally unlike the word Moses brought (John 1:17). No man has ever seen God, but the incarnate Word declared Him (John 1:18). The eternal life with the Father, the Word of life, was manifested (1st John 1:2). The Word of God, with human nature as Jesus Christ, revealed God the Father. Jesus said no man could know the Father but by His revelation (Matthew 11;27). Jesus came to give men an understanding (the Word) of God (1st John 5:20).

"With God", simply mean part of God's nature as the Eternal God ~ the Godhead is ONE eternally DIVINE nature with no beginning, and no end.

The Word was God without any qualifications.

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Note very carefully that it was the Word, and not the Son, that is named here. The Word and the Son are not the same Being/Person without clarification. The Word became the Son by His incarnation in human flesh through Mary. The Son is dependent on both the Word and His human nature for existence. The Son was not made flesh, because the Son is flesh by His very existence.

This is an incredible event in all recorded history – Jehovah God became man. Remember from John 1:10 the Word was in the world and not known by it. All facts of human history recorded or studied in school pale in comparison. Why all the fuss about asinine nothing? … The Day the Earth Stood Still. Jesus Christ is also known as Emmanuel – God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23) . Jesus had a human body indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:7-9) God is a spirit. Jesus had a body. Jesus Christ is God, but God is not Jesus. The verse does not say that that the Son was made flesh, but the Word which was God was made flesh in the person Of Jesus of Narareth...The Word joined Himself to the tabernacle of God's Son and live in this world around 33 plus years over two thousand years ago.

So you still insist that this Son of God did not become such until Mary gave birth?

That's God's testimony of His Son recorded for us in Luke one, mainly, with tons of other scriptures proving the same.

the firstborn of every creature: (Again, this is Jesus who was the first born of every creature before he created creation.)

Firstborn describes the "preeminent position", regardless of any birth order (Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 11:17). Your added statement is not found in the scriptures.

This says that the very first thing that God did while being alone was to create Jesus.

You know that is blasphemy! Horribly unscriptural, that destroys Jesus Deity as God with those very words!

Revelation 1:7,8
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

You need to reconsider what you are reading and trusting in ~ that writer is badly deceived.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman
So, let me ask you this question: Why did the first church meet on the first day of the week? We never read of them saying anything concerning Sabbath day worship for Christians, never.

First of all, your little deception "concerning Sabbath day Worship" is subtle and cleaver no doubt. But a wickedness just the same. There was never any instruction in Scriptures to "Worship God's Sabbath", or "worship Passover" or "worship the resurrection". I am not a "Sabbath worshipper". I am not a "cross worshipper" or "an image of God after the likeness of some handsome long haired man", worshipper. I don't Worship "thou shall not Kill". I worship the God And Father of the Lord's Christ, who HE sent to be my Redeemer and Savior and this Jesus, "of the bible" instructs me to Live By the Words of His Father, and Worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth.


The "First Church of God" under His New High Priest, Honored and respected the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, concerning His Sabbaths, even in the most traumatic time of their lives, the murder of the prophesied Messiah they had waited for and placed their trust in. For you to preach that "We never read of them saying anything concerning Sabbath day worship", is true because there was never any instruction, ever in the entire Bible, that men should worship a "DAY", or a Statue, or a Cross, or a religion. There is nothing in any of my posts, even implying that a man should "Worship God's Sabbath". What foolishness.

The "First Church of God" under HIS New Priesthood observed the Passover, and honored and respected God in HIS Feast of Unleavened bread, including God's Holy Sabbaths on the First and Last day of the Feast. They most definitely honored and worshipped God in their submission to HIS Righteousness. This was necessary in order to know to "Count" the 7 Sabbaths, so as to be gathered on the Most Holy "Pentecost", another "Feast of the Lord" rejected by this world's religions. This obedience to God prompted God to share with them His Holy Spirit, AKA "The Spirit of Truth" that God gives to them that "Obey Him". The prince of darkness and it's little helpers, preach that the "First Church of God" under His New High Priest, the Lord's Christ, ignored and/or rejected God's Sabbaths. This is an insidious Lie furthered by the Promoters of this world's religious system.

And reflects the very reason why Jesus said to "Come out of" these religions, and why HE warned to "Take Heed" of the promoters of this world's religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and "Come in His Name".

Sadly, these undeniable Biblical Truths with have no influence on this world's "ministers of righteousness" at All, because they are not here to Seek God's Righteousness, Rather, they are here to Justify themselves, and promote their specific adopted religion that existed in the world God placed you in. (Calvinism, JW, Armenian, just a name a few, there are many more)

There is nothing wrong with having lunch, setting aside money, studying God's Word or fellowshipping on the 1st day of the week, or the 2nd day, or the 4th day. There is however, something wrong with rejecting a commandment, Judgment or statute of God, in order to promote and/or live by this world's popular religious traditions that Transgress God's Commandments, or to promote for doctrines the Commandments of men, according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

God's Sabbath was mentioned 55 times in the NT. The implication of your post, that there was no mention that faithful "doers" of the Christ Sayings, ( Who were called "Christians" twice in the Bible") rejected God's Sabbath day observance is simply a big fat falsehood. "Covet" was only mentioned 4 times, Steal was only mentioned 10 times. "Adultery" only 18 Times. Murder 5 Times. Kill 44 times.

The Jesus "of the Bible" even said to Live By Every Word of God. He himself is Lord, Even of the Sabbath.

Anyone who believes in the Jesus "of the Bible" will "Seek First the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness". Through the Holy Scriptures God's Righteousness will be revealed to them, included, but not limited to God's Holy 7th Day found in the very First 2 Chapters of the Bible, including who made it Holy. They will find it in the 4th Commandment of the !0 Commandments. They will find what Days God Esteemed above other days. They will find, as Jesus Himself said, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible", what to eat, what to drink, what philosophy to be clothed with.

Just because you and Constantine Don't believe in Jesus' or His Father's Words, doesn't make them wrong.