Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

This is true, Jesus was placed in the Grave just before sundown on Wednesday, which was Passover and the preparation day for the First day of Unleavened bread, (Thursday that week, A Sabbath) and was raised from the dead just before Sundown on Saturday.
That's not correct. He was raised some time after midnight before the sun arose on the first day of the week, Which would be Sunday, not on Saturday! You Sabbatarians wrest scriptures to support your practices.

3days-3nights2.jpg




1. Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples on the evening of the fourteenth by Moses’ law (Ex 12:6-8; Matt 26:17-20; Mark 14:12-17; Luke 22:7-15).

2. The crucifixion began at 9:00 AM, and Jesus died after the darkness ended at 3:00 PM (Matthew 27:45-50; Mark 15:25,33-37; Luke 23:44-49).

3. Jesus was buried hurriedly as the preparation day ended and the high Sabbath day was about to begin (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14,31,42).

4. The women who followed Jesus rested the high Sabbath day of the Passover before buying and preparing their spices (Mark 16:1 cp Exodus 12:16).

5. The women bought their spices and prepared them on the regular workday between the two Sabbaths days this week (Mark 16:1 cp Luke 23:55-56).

6. The women rested during the weekly Sabbath day after buying and preparing their spices the previous workday (Luke 23:55-56 cp Exodus 20:10).

7. Jesus rose from the dead as the weekly Sabbath ended – three days and three nights after burial – as prophesied (Matthew 12:39-40; Mark 8:31).

8. While it was still dark, the morning of the first day of the week, the women found the tomb already empty (Matt 28:1-6; Luke 24:1-3; John 20:1).

9. The gospel record of Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection prove His identifying sign of three days and three nights
 
That's not correct. He was raised some time after midnight before the sun arose on the first day of the week, Which would be Sunday, not on Saturday! You Sabbatarians wrest scriptures to support your practices.

3days-3nights2.jpg




1. Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples on the evening of the fourteenth by Moses’ law (Ex 12:6-8; Matt 26:17-20; Mark 14:12-17; Luke 22:7-15).

2. The crucifixion began at 9:00 AM, and Jesus died after the darkness ended at 3:00 PM (Matthew 27:45-50; Mark 15:25,33-37; Luke 23:44-49).

3. Jesus was buried hurriedly as the preparation day ended and the high Sabbath day was about to begin (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14,31,42).

4. The women who followed Jesus rested the high Sabbath day of the Passover before buying and preparing their spices (Mark 16:1 cp Exodus 12:16).

5. The women bought their spices and prepared them on the regular workday between the two Sabbaths days this week (Mark 16:1 cp Luke 23:55-56).

6. The women rested during the weekly Sabbath day after buying and preparing their spices the previous workday (Luke 23:55-56 cp Exodus 20:10).

7. Jesus rose from the dead as the weekly Sabbath ended (Just before Sundown–as your chart shows) three days and three nights after burial – as prophesied (Matthew 12:39-40; Mark 8:31).

8. While it was still dark, the morning of the first day of the week, the women found the tomb already empty (Matt 28:1-6; Luke 24:1-3; John 20:1).

9. The gospel record of Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection prove His identifying sign of three days and three nights

The reason why Jesus was placed in the grave before Sundown on Passover, is because God's Day, and the Fist Day of Unleavened bread, a Sabbath, starts at Sundown, as your own chart clearly shows. The reason why it was still dark when Mary got there, is because she didn't leave her home until after sundown, after the Sabbath, early Sunday Morning, as your chart shows. Jesus rose from the dead, 3 days and 3 nights from the time HE was placed in the Grave, as your chart shows.

You add your wicked foolishness of 6 additional hours until Midnight on Sunday to support your Catholic Sabbath. But as your own chart shows, Jesus Rose from the dead, just before Sundown on Saturday, "proving His identifying sign of three days and three nights".

You are preaching contrary to your own chart, a chart that mirrors one I built from study some 30 years ago.

Look at your own chart Red. Tell me, when does your own Chart say Jesus Rose from the Dead?

Who is wresting scriptures here, to justify and promote the Catholic Sabbath.

You always declare that you "always" answer everyone's question. So here is a question for you.

What time, according to your own Chart, did Jesus raise from the dead?

I look forward to your answer.
 
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Clearly, verse 21 is speaking of the "body" of Jesus Christ in heaven following His ascension, not His earthly body.
 
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Clearly, verse 21 is speaking of the "body" of Jesus Christ in heaven following His ascension, not His earthly body.
Its still a physical material body with flesh and bones as Jesus said post resurrection. A spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Jesus own testimony about His bodily Resurrection. His body still contains the marks from His crucifixion in His hands, feet and side.
 
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Clearly, verse 21 is speaking of the "body" of Jesus Christ in heaven following His ascension, not His earthly body.
Error after error. Amazing that you earlier claimed that the body of Christ was transfigured and Glorious during His advent and yet you want to deny it here.

Nothing but doubleminded nonsense from you.
 
@Milo Flores
What part of Christ was eternal?

Also: "uniquely begotten of the Father, and the One through whom all creation came into being."

Begotten when?
EDIT by Adim


So, I my go there and show your vain philosophy!

Colossians 2:8​

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
 
@FreeInChrist
Thank you for posting this so understandably.
You might wan to read more before commenting on his post.


We are our brothers/sisters keeper!
 
@Milo Flores

I'm not expecting an answer from you, seeing your Jehovah Witnesses coming out in your post both here and:


So, I my go there and show your vain philosophy!

Colossians 2:8​

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
I understand your reaction toward Jehovah’s Witnesses. For clarity: I have been out of them for 24 years. I resigned because I could not agree with the way their Governing Body applied its doctrines. I know that mentioning this as part of my background may bring reactions, but when asked about my denomination I never hide anything. My reflections on kenosis are my own walk with Scripture, not theirs. For me, kenosis is not philosophy, but the way of Christ: ‘He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant’ (Phil 2:7). And really I just understand full kenosis, a couple of months ago, or a little more.
 
@Studyman
You are preaching contrary to your own chart, a chart that mirrors one I built from study some 30 years ago.
Well guess what you did not built it, if so, where is it? Actually anyone could have built the same if they follow the scriptures.

Also, I did not add six hours, the scriptures tell us that on the FIRST day of the week he appeared, show us that that was THE DAY he arose, also that day is called the LORD"S day for a reason.

Revelation 1:10​

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”

Mr. Sabbatarian I know what the chart said, Jesus arose sometime after the Jewish Sabbath was finished and we know that it was after midnight hour since the first day of the week was the day ALL Christians came together to worship thereafter. It was the day Christ appeared to them after his resurrection also.

John 20:19​

“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”

John 20:26​

“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.”

Acts 20:7​

“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.”

1st Corinthians 16:2​

“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.”

That's why we said sometime after midnight before the sun came up Jesus arose! The FIRST day of the week is considered by saints since then to be the LORD'S DAY, not Saturday you you desire it to be.
 
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@Studyman

Mark 16:9​

“Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”

Would like to discuss this scripture? Or, this one:

John 20:1​

“The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.”
 
I understand your reaction toward Jehovah’s Witnesses. For clarity: I have been out of them for 24 years. I resigned because I could not agree with the way their Governing Body applied its doctrines. I know that mentioning this as part of my background may bring reactions, but when asked about my denomination I never hide anything. My reflections on kenosis are my own walk with Scripture, not theirs. For me, kenosis is not philosophy, but the way of Christ: ‘He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant’ (Phil 2:7). And really I just understand full kenosis, a couple of months ago, or a little more.
There was no emptying of Divinity in Christ. That thought alone is one of the most abused self serving nonsense that exists in false doctrines today.

The humility of Christ is a full display of the very nature of Deity incarnate. Christ didn't abandon any quality of Divinity in His Glorious Advent. John said we beheld His Glory....

The problem is what men find glorious.
 
@Studyman

Well guess what you did not built it, if so, where is it? Actually anyone could have built the same if they follow the scriptures.

Also, I did not add six hours, the scriptures tell us that on the FIRST day of the week he appeared, show us that that was THE DAY he arose, also that day is called the LORD"S day for a reason.

I asked you a simple question.

"What time, according to your own Chart, did Jesus raise from the dead?"

The Chart you provided says exactly what the Scriptures say, and I believe. Jesus was buried just before sundown, and 3 days and 3 nights later, HE Rose from the dead just before Sundown. Exactly as the Chart you posted details.

You did add 6 hours or more to the time line, and this to defend and justify ancient Constantinian high days.

The term "The Lord's Day" is mentioned ONE time in the entire Bible in Revelation. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches this Lord's Day wasn't the Christ's Sabbath, the 7th Day that HE Himself said HE was Lord of.

The Catholic Sabbath is a Catholic creation. Ask any Catholic Priest. Jesus was already raised from the dead before Sundown on Saturday, just as He was buried before Sundown on Wednesday. 3 days and 3 nights.


Revelation 1:10​

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”

The Jesus "of the Bible" Said HE is Lord even of the Sabbath Days. You preach that Jesus was God, the creator of all things. This means the Christ sanctified and set apart the 7th Day of the week as Holy. Holy to Him, and Holy to His People, according to what is Inspired by Him to be written in the Holy scriptures. Of Course Christ Jesus is Lord of His Own Sabbath Days.

It was Christ Himself, before becoming a man, that Esteemed the 7th Day of the week above the other 6 days. It is even shown you in the Commandments the Christ gave to Moses, that Jesus Walked in.

But all these truths are flushed down man's religious toilet so they can promote for doctrines, the Commandments of men. The Jesus "of the bible" warns about this very thing.

Mr. Sabbatarian I know what the chart said, Jesus arose sometime after the Jewish Sabbath was finished

You need to look at the Chart if you haven't. It shows when Jesus rose from the dead. Even the Catholic Priests know what day God's Sabbath is, and it isn't the 1st day of the week.

"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903."

"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
—The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73."

"But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed.

They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.
—The Faith of Millions"

Was Christ a JEW when HE sanctified and Set apart as Holy the 7th Day of the Week?

and we know that it was after midnight hour since the first day of the week was the day ALL Christians came together to worship thereafter. It was the day Christ appeared to them after his resurrection also.

What would you have the Christ do? Hide from them for a week, or a few more days?

John 20:1 The first day of the week (After the Sabbath of the Lord) cometh Mary Magdalene early, (After Sundown on Saturday) when it was yet dark, (The Sun had Set, the First Day of the week had begun) unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

The Stone was already moved away, Jesus was already Risen before the sun went down. Just as Your Chart Clearly shows.

John 20:19​

“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”

What would have the Christ do? Hide from them until the Next Sabbath? Do you have any idea of the Trauma His People just went through? They were "Hiding their children and family from the Jews" afraid for their lives that they were next.

John 20:26​

“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.”

That would have been a Monday when Jesus came to them. So is Monday now the "Lord's Day"? Your new sabbath?

Acts 20:7​

“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.”

6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days. 7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Acts 17: 1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Every time the Christ's Sabbath is referenced in the Bible, it says "The Sabbath". Acts. 13: 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God".

Acts 15: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The New Testament mentions the Christ's Sabbath 55 times, almost every time calling it "The Sabbath". The term "7th day" was used only ONE time to describe the Christ's Sabbath in the entire NT.

EVERY TIME Sunday is mentioned, it is always called the "First Day of the week". It is never called the Sabbath, the Lord's Day, a Holy Day. NOT ONE TIME in the old or new testaments.

Men preach a lot of wicked judgments against God and His Christ, I have detailed them on this forum many times. But I am astounded of the lack or honor and respect for the Christ "of the Bible" in your posts. Here He was, knowing the End from the very beginning of creation. And yet your post implies that HE didn't know, when HE sanctified and Set apart the 7th Day of the Week as HIS Holy Sabbath, that HE was going to be raised from the dead on Sunday.

Your post implies that the Christ sanctified the wrong day at creation.

1st Corinthians 16:2​

“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.”

1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Of course this was done after Christ's Sabbath. Is Christ's Sabbath made for counting money?

That's why we said sometime after midnight before the sun came up Jesus arose!

That is simply ancient Catholic dogma to justify their high days. Your own Chart, and the Scriptures which support it, prove when Jesus Rose from the dead. Your post are preserving, defending and justifying ancient Catholic Doctrine that has been proven false by Scriptures over and over. Your own chart exposes this deception.
The FIRST day of the week is considered by saints since then to be the LORD'S DAY, not Saturday you you desire it to be.

Even the Catholics know the bible doesn't teach, create or sanctify the 1st day of the week. And Jesus didn't raise on Sunday anyway. In all accounts, HE was already risen when they got to the grave.

Just look at the Chart you posted.
 
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@Studyman

Mark 16:9​

“Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”

Would like to discuss this scripture? Or, this one:

It is true Jesus appeared to Mary first, after the Sun had set on Saturday evening, and Sunday Morning began. She didn't even leave her house until after the Sabbath. Look at your chart Red. Why did you post it, if you don't believe it?

John 20:1​

“The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.”

Of course, when the sun sets, a new day begins. When the sun sets, it becomes "Dark". Mary didn't leave her house until the "First Day of the week began". When she got there, He was already risen. Why is this so hard to accept?

Just look at the chart and remember, Jesus said He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. Not 3 days and 3.5 nights. Your chart, that you posted, shows this perfectly.

"The gospel record of Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection "prove His identifying sign" of "three days and three nights".

Your chart proves Jesus rose from the dead just before sundown of Saturday night. I've known this though study for 30 years. But ancient religious tradition, combined with stubborn pride, can be a wickedly powerful influence. Perhaps yu might consider that the Chart you chose to post is right. And be corrected by it.
 
@Studyman
That would have been a Monday when Jesus came to them. So is Monday now the "Lord's Day"? Your new sabbath? Do you have any idea what you are even preaching
You are not adding correctly. The first week he visited them=day one. Monday would have been day two, etc. Saturday would have been day seven, Sunday again, would have been eight days later! This is not too deep to figure out.

I'm steeping out for a while be back later.
 
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