Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[Red Baker]

This is true, Jesus was placed in the Grave just before sundown on Wednesday, which was Passover and the preparation day for the First day of Unleavened bread, (Thursday that week, A Sabbath) and was raised from the dead just before Sundown on Saturday.

That's not correct. He was raised some time after midnight before the sun arose on the first day of the week, Which would be Sunday, not on Saturday! You Sabbatarians wrest scriptures to support your practices.

1. Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples on the evening of the fourteenth by Moses’ law (Ex 12:6-8; Matt 26:17-20; Mark 14:12-17; Luke 22:7-15).

2. The crucifixion began at 9:00 AM, and Jesus died after the darkness ended at 3:00 PM (Matthew 27:45-50; Mark 15:25,33-37; Luke 23:44-49).

3. Jesus was buried hurriedly as the preparation day ended and the high Sabbath day was about to begin (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14,31,42).

4. The women who followed Jesus rested the high Sabbath day of the Passover before buying and preparing their spices (Mark 16:1 cp Exodus 12:16).

5. The women bought their spices and prepared them on the regular workday between the two Sabbaths days this week (Mark 16:1 cp Luke 23:55-56).

6. The women rested during the weekly Sabbath day after buying and preparing their spices the previous workday (Luke 23:55-56 cp Exodus 20:10).

7. Jesus rose from the dead as the weekly Sabbath ended – three days and three nights after burial – as prophesied (Matthew 12:39-40; Mark 8:31).

8. While it was still dark, the morning of the first day of the week, the women found the tomb already empty (Matt 28:1-6; Luke 24:1-3; John 20:1).

9. The gospel record of Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection prove His identifying sign of three days and three nights

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where do you read anything about Christ in a material body that is glorious? Answer -- You don't.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself

 

[Studyman]

That's not correct. He was raised some time after midnight before the sun arose on the first day of the week, Which would be Sunday, not on Saturday! You Sabbatarians wrest scriptures to support your practices.

1. Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples on the evening of the fourteenth by Moses’ law (Ex 12:6-8; Matt 26:17-20; Mark 14:12-17; Luke 22:7-15).

2. The crucifixion began at 9:00 AM, and Jesus died after the darkness ended at 3:00 PM (Matthew 27:45-50; Mark 15:25,33-37; Luke 23:44-49).

3. Jesus was buried hurriedly as the preparation day ended and the high Sabbath day was about to begin (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14,31,42).

4. The women who followed Jesus rested the high Sabbath day of the Passover before buying and preparing their spices (Mark 16:1 cp Exodus 12:16).

5. The women bought their spices and prepared them on the regular workday between the two Sabbaths days this week (Mark 16:1 cp Luke 23:55-56).

6. The women rested during the weekly Sabbath day after buying and preparing their spices the previous workday (Luke 23:55-56 cp Exodus 20:10).

7. Jesus rose from the dead as the weekly Sabbath ended (Just before Sundown–as your chart shows) three days and three nights after burial – as prophesied (Matthew 12:39-40; Mark 8:31).

8. While it was still dark, the morning of the first day of the week, the women found the tomb already empty (Matt 28:1-6; Luke 24:1-3; John 20:1).

9. The gospel record of Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection prove His identifying sign of three days and three nights

The reason why Jesus was placed in the grave before Sundown on Passover, is because God's Day, and the Fist Day of Unleavened bread, a Sabbath, starts at Sundown, as your own chart clearly shows. The reason why it was still dark when Mary got there, is because she didn't leave her home until after sundown, after the Sabbath, early Sunday Morning, as your chart shows. Jesus rose from the dead, 3 days and 3 nights from the time HE was placed in the Grave, as your chart shows.

You add your wicked foolishness of 6 additional hours until Midnight on Sunday to support your Catholic Sabbath. But as your own chart shows, Jesus Rose from the dead, just before Sundown on Saturday, "proving His identifying sign of three days and three nights".

You are preaching contrary to your own chart, a chart that mirrors one I built from study some 30 years ago.

Look at your own chart Red. Tell me, when does your own Chart say Jesus Rose from the Dead?

Who is wresting scriptures here, to justify and promote the Catholic Sabbath.

You always declare that you "always" answer everyone's question. So here is a question for you.

What time, according to your own Chart, did Jesus raise from the dead?

I look forward to your answer.

 

[Jim]

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Clearly, verse 21 is speaking of the "body" of Jesus Christ in heaven following His ascension, not His earthly body.

 

[civic]

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Clearly, verse 21 is speaking of the "body" of Jesus Christ in heaven following His ascension, not His earthly body.

Its still a physical material body with flesh and bones as Jesus said post resurrection. A spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Jesus own testimony about His bodily Resurrection. His body still contains the marks from His crucifixion in His hands, feet and side.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Clearly, verse 21 is speaking of the "body" of Jesus Christ in heaven following His ascension, not His earthly body.

Error after error. Amazing that you earlier claimed that the body of Christ was transfigured and Glorious during His advent and yet you want to deny it here.

Nothing but doubleminded nonsense from you.

 

[Red Baker]

@Milo Flores

What part of Christ was eternal?

Also: "uniquely begotten of the Father, and the One through whom all creation came into being."

Begotten when?

EDIT by Adim

M

Post in thread 'My Kenosis full understanding'

Today at 6:00 AM

Be very careful with this one. Doctrines like this can lead to a legalistic self-righteous attempt to merit heaven in one's own goodness, instead of a helpless and complete reliance upon the grace of God merited through the sufferings of Christ on our behalf.

Beware of this pitfall!

Thank you for that very important caution. You are absolutely right: we must always be careful, because even the highest angel fell. If...

• Milo Flores

So, I my go there and show your vain philosophy!

Colossians 2:8​

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

Thank you for posting this so understandably.

You might wan to read more before commenting on his post.

M

Thread 'My Kenosis full understanding'

Yesterday at 6:53 PM

Friends, allow me to share what I believe is a coherent way to read Scripture —yet I do not present this as dogma. I hold to the principle of “not going beyond what is written” (1 Cor 4:6). What follows is simply my understanding, the interpretation that seems to me most faithful to the biblical pattern. I respect the venerable Nicene tradition, but I cannot impose a word like homoousios which the apostles themselves never used. What I see, rather, is that the key thread running from Genesis to Revelation is the mystery of kenosis —self-emptying love.

THE INTEGRAL...

• Milo Flores
• Replies: 23
• Forum: Doctrine

• 

We are our brothers/sisters keeper!

 

[Milo Flores]

@Milo Flores

I'm not expecting an answer from you, seeing your Jehovah Witnesses coming out in your post both here and:

M

Post in thread 'My Kenosis full understanding'

Today at 6:00 AM

Be very careful with this one. Doctrines like this can lead to a legalistic self-righteous attempt to merit heaven in one's own goodness, instead of a helpless and complete reliance upon the grace of God merited through the sufferings of Christ on our behalf.

Beware of this pitfall!

Thank you for that very important caution. You are absolutely right: we must always be careful, because even the highest angel fell. If...

• Milo Flores

So, I my go there and show your vain philosophy!

Colossians 2:8​

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

I understand your reaction toward Jehovah’s Witnesses. For clarity: I have been out of them for 24 years. I resigned because I could not agree with the way their Governing Body applied its doctrines. I know that mentioning this as part of my background may bring reactions, but when asked about my denomination I never hide anything. My reflections on kenosis are my own walk with Scripture, not theirs. For me, kenosis is not philosophy, but the way of Christ: ‘He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant’ (Phil 2:7). And really I just understand full kenosis, a couple of months ago, or a little more.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

You are preaching contrary to your own chart, a chart that mirrors one I built from study some 30 years ago.

Well guess what you did not built it, if so, where is it? Actually anyone could have built the same if they follow the scriptures.

Also, I did not add six hours, the scriptures tell us that on the FIRST day of the week he appeared, show us that that was THE DAY he arose, also that day is called the LORD"S day for a reason.

Revelation 1:10​

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”

Mr. Sabbatarian I know what the chart said, Jesus arose sometime after the Jewish Sabbath was finished and we know that it was after midnight hour since the first day of the week was the day ALL Christians came together to worship thereafter. It was the day Christ appeared to them after his resurrection also.

John 20:19​

“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”

John 20:26​

“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.”

Acts 20:7​

“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.”

1st Corinthians 16:2​

“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.”

That's why we said sometime after midnight before the sun came up Jesus arose! The FIRST day of the week is considered by saints since then to be the LORD'S DAY, not Saturday you you desire it to be.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman​

Mark 16:9​

“Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”

Would like to discuss this scripture? Or, this one:

John 20:1​

“The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.”

 

[Red Baker]

@Milo Flores

I have been out of them for 24 years.

Good that you left, but did you bring their corrupt teachings with you? You never answered my question:

What part of Christ was eternal?

 

[Red Baker]

EDIT by Adim

What was Edit? I forgot what I said, so I will not do so again, if rules were broken.

 

[civic]

What was Edit? I forgot what I said, so I will not do so again, if rules were broken.

I’m sure the @Administrator will let you know.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I understand your reaction toward Jehovah’s Witnesses. For clarity: I have been out of them for 24 years. I resigned because I could not agree with the way their Governing Body applied its doctrines. I know that mentioning this as part of my background may bring reactions, but when asked about my denomination I never hide anything. My reflections on kenosis are my own walk with Scripture, not theirs. For me, kenosis is not philosophy, but the way of Christ: ‘He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant’ (Phil 2:7). And really I just understand full kenosis, a couple of months ago, or a little more.

There was no emptying of Divinity in Christ. That thought alone is one of the most abused self serving nonsense that exists in false doctrines today.

The humility of Christ is a full display of the very nature of Deity incarnate. Christ didn't abandon any quality of Divinity in His Glorious Advent. John said we beheld His Glory....

The problem is what men find glorious.

 

[Administrator]

What was Edit? I forgot what I said, so I will not do so again, if rules were broken.

Rules
1c. No attacks on another poster's religious beliefs, race, national origin, or gender.

 

[Administrator]

@Milo Flores

Good that you left, but did you bring their corrupt teachings with you? You never answered my question:

Talk about the post not the poster